GIANNIS THREAD: Giannis has SIGNED the Supermax

[Kammrath]

There is nothing to suggest that him signing super max will alter Mavs 2021 plans.

[KillerLeft]

Rooting for the super max extension. Giannis taking us out of our misery early would be a blessing in disguise.

Worst case scenario: this drags into week 1-2 of next year‘s FA and he goes elsewhere after the majority of FAs have moved to other teams.

We’ve been there. No need to go back there. This feels like a waste of time for DAL.

I’m trying to understand this mindset, but for the life of me, I just can’t. 

What “misery” are we talking about? Not having average players locked up on long term deals? Not being locked into a mediocre roster? We’ve seen that movie before, remember? It was called “Poor, poor Dirk.”  It was a Shakespearean tragedy, not the Christopher Nolan thrill ride you guys all seem to remember. 

If/when Giannis comes off the board, you look at the next difference maker, and then the next. I don’t believe Gobert and KP can play together, personally, but it should be noted that if the Mavs do, then he’s a difference maker. There are so many others. 

Luka signs his rookie max extension next summer! From that point on, the Mavs are an over the cap team (unless they strip down to ONLY him at some point - which he will not want to do). I find it extremely shortsighted that people aren’t willing to remain flexible and opportunistic between now and then. Clearly, you have to lock in the best possible roster before he signs that extension, but you have time between now and then to search for the best possible path.

[ItsGoTime]

Clearly, you have to log in the best possible roster before he signs that extension, but you have time between now and then to search for the best possible path.

I think there is a really good chance that the best possible path, when all is said and done, might turn out to be something that we possibly passed up on because we were staying flexible.

Also, how in the world can a person believe that once Luka signs his extension that we are "locked in". I don't get that mentality. Is the trade market going to just freeze up once Luka signs his extension? Will there be no FA's following Luka's extension signing? How about the draft? Does that go away once Luka signs his extension?

No, none of that goes away, as well as our flexibility to change directions continues to be there. This is not 21 or bust, this is 21 is just another year to get what we need for this team. Luka's contract is just 1 contract on a team that needs to have players signed at their on court value or lower.

Every year we read how we prop up the next thing on the list of "deadlines". The draft, free agency, trade deadline, moratorium lifted. Every year before that "deadline" we all discuss what we'd like to see happen at that particular "deadline", and every passing of the "deadline, the posts start saying "that's ok, cause look what we can get at this NEXT deadline!" and "That was the better option to begin with!" followed by "Screw that guy that didn't want to come here, this guy is saying all the right things and I think Dallas really has a shot THIS TIME!"

[KillerLeft]

I think there is a really good chance that the best possible path, when all is said and done, might turn out to be something that we possibly passed up on because we were staying flexible.

I think there's a chance of this happening ("really good chance" is obviously a stretch), but it certainly hasn't happened yet, so I don't get all the doom and gloom about it. So far, since drafting Luka, the vast majority of the decisions they've made have been for the best, imo. They've done loads of stupid things over the past decade, but most of them were silly, flailing attempts to reset the franchise with a young star. Since acquiring that guy, I think what they've done has been not only logical but actually refreshingly effective. 

Also, how in the world can a person believe that once Luka signs his extension that we are "locked in". I don't get that mentality. Is the trade market going to just freeze up once Luka signs his extension? Will there be no FA's following Luka's extension signing? How about the draft? Does that go away once Luka signs his extension?

Two max players = roughly 60% of the cap, yes? That effectively locks you in to improving through trades and MLE only, unless you bail on Porzingis and probably some other contributors who are here on good contracts. There's nothing wrong with trades, and I'm not suggesting that the roster will be written in stone from next summer on, but moving salary out in exchange for other salary requires a multi-directional fit in terms of intent. This is a much, much smaller target to hit, with much less room for error. If you're not passing up anything of value to maintain other options, and so far, they haven't, why plunge head first into a world where you have only one possible route of escape? 

No, none of that goes away, as well as our flexibility to change directions continues to be there. This is not 21 or bust, this is 21 is just another year to get what we need for this team. Luka's contract is just 1 contract on a team that needs to have players signed at their on court value or lower.

Couldn't have said the above better myself, and it 100% supports my view, imo. 

We've seen that the Mavs are willing to add salary. They're just being careful to add the RIGHT salary. 

'21 isn't a doomsday clock, it's merely the end of ONE possible avenue of improvement. I have no problem with keeping that avenue clear, so long as they're not passing anything truly exciting up to do so. It's so simple. 

Dating back to 2011, I have probably been one of the most vocal critics of the MBT in this community. I can't remember where you stood back then, but I remember some of the others who told me letting Chandler and Barea (the two YOUNGEST contributors on the title team) go was smart. Objectively, factually, we now know that it was not. The approach they pulled the trigger on at that time was a CRIME against their fans. EVIL, imo. I'm not bringing this up to reopen a long expired conversation that will do no good for anyone here. I'm just trying to illustrate that I am NOT an MBT homer. I will go to my grave believing that Mark Cuban owes us all an apology for that. 

It was objectively stupid to pass up on drafting Giannis, who they had apparently identified as a future star, in order to add more money to an offer for Dwight Howard, who clearly wasn't going to come here, and who we now know wouldn't have done much for the team or city if he had. That's dumb. 

I'm not seeing that level of ineptitude in the current situation. It's still possible that it resurfaces, but to color that as "likely" is just as speculative as the assertion that Giannis will come here, stated by the dreamers among us. I'm in the middle. I see it as much, much more POSSIBLE that Giannis comes than Howard coming back then, because there is some logic to support that choice. It's definitely not LIKELY, so I'm not holding out much hope for it. What I AM holding out hope for is the chance of something really, truly exciting to happen, and maybe something we don't see coming at all.

If/when your worst fear comes true, and it becomes clear that they've skipped on something that would've moved the needle while waiting on an unlikely eventuality to play itself out, I'll be just as pissed as the next guy. To this point, I've seen no evidence that this is going to happen. They seem to know what they're doing these days. This off-season was BETTER than I expected, not worse.

[BigDirk41]

Clearly, you have to log in the best possible roster before he signs that extension, but you have time between now and then to search for the best possible path.

I think there is a really good chance that the best possible path, when all is said and done, might turn out to be something that we possibly passed up on because we were staying flexible.

Also, how in the world can a person believe that once Luka signs his extension that we are "locked in". I don't get that mentality. Is the trade market going to just freeze up once Luka signs his extension? Will there be no FA's following Luka's extension signing? How about the draft? Does that go away once Luka signs his extension?

No, none of that goes away, as well as our flexibility to change directions continues to be there. This is not 21 or bust, this is 21 is just another year to get what we need for this team. Luka's contract is just 1 contract on a team that needs to have players signed at their on court value or lower.

Every year we read how we prop up the next thing on the list of "deadlines". The draft, free agency, trade deadline, moratorium lifted. Every year before that "deadline" we all discuss what we'd like to see happen at that particular "deadline", and every passing of the "deadline, the posts start saying "that's ok, cause look what we can get at this NEXT deadline!" and "That was the better option to begin with!" followed by "Screw that guy that didn't want to come here, this guy is saying all the right things and I think Dallas really has a shot THIS TIME!"

I tend to agree with this view. I totally get and understand that we should be estatic for getting Luka and KP. Damn right we should be, but unfortunately Donnie gets a pass every time we miss out because he's landed Dirk, Luka, KP via trades. Donnie is one of the all time best GM's at trades. Unfortunately he is not so good at the draft and free agent signings. Too often we punt on the draft. This flexibility thing is completely overated. When a star wants to come to your team, they force their way there. Salary cap doesn't stop the great teams. Miami never has trouble clearing salary. LA never has trouble landing someone via trades or signing. 

I agree that we are in a great position currently, but what I will say is next off-season is 100% put up or shut up time. If they fail next off season, they might as well start planning the Luka trade demands down the road. At some point the plan has to happen or it's just all BS.

[Jason Terry]

In response to @"ItsGoTime" . You are right that we aren’t locked in after next offseason. Trades and draft are still available, but free agency comes off the table as a way to add talent. Unless you think KP should go? The math no longer adds up to having space for at least 3-4 years. For that reason i don’t see a huge trade with picks anytime before we no longer are players in FA

[KillerLeft]

For that reason i don’t see a huge trade with picks anytime before we no longer are players in FA

So, I wouldn't rule out a big splash at the trade deadline, myself. 

Planning to have cap space LAST off season is what got them KP. Without that plan, they wouldn't have had the expiring deals in place to build that trade. Essentially, they "used" the space early by trading it at the previous deadline for a difference maker and then extending him. 

I can definitely see that being the path they choose. The funny thing is that should that happen, people will say "See, I told you they weren't getting Giannis. Thank God they came to their senses and didn't wait," not realizing that the cap space 2021 plan was what made it possible. 

Back to the overall topic: If, when Luka signs his extension, the team is not in great shape (through any means available) then I think they'll deserve some criticism. Until then, I just don't understand the doom and gloom mentality. I could understand it if they were treading water, but they drastically improved the roster. I could understand it if they had just passed up something that clearly elevated them to contender status, but I don't see what possible move could've done that. They improved the team (more than marginally, imo) and in such a way as to make it EASIER to move these new pieces later for even better ones. I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing a (likely) downside.

---

I agree that we are in a great position currently, but what I will say is next off-season is 100% put up or shut up time. If they fail next off season, they might as well start planning the Luka trade demands down the road. At some point the plan has to happen or it's just all BS.

This is pretty close to accurate, imo. I don't agree with much else that you said, but the above paragraph hits a chord of truth. 

I still think there will be time to salvage the Luka situation at that point, but doing so will be much, much more difficult. What I'm not hearing from anyone is the option the Mavs have passed up that's making you all feel this way. So, while I'll be right there with you next summer if they don't put some young, exciting players together with a certain amount of cost control (not expiring deals, at that point), I don't know that I'll necessarily look back at NOW and choose this as the time where it went wrong.

[Jason Terry]

For that reason i don’t see a huge trade with picks anytime before we no longer are players in FA

So, I wouldn't rule out a big splash at the trade deadline, myself. 

Planning to have cap space LAST off season is what got them KP. Without that plan, they wouldn't have had the expiring deals in place to build that trade. Essentially, they "used" the space early by trading it at the previous deadline for a difference maker and then extending him. 

I can definitely see that being the path they choose. The funny thing is that should that happen, people will say "See, I told you they weren't getting Giannis. Thank God they came to their senses and didn't wait," not realizing that the cap space 2021 plan was what made it possible. 

Back to the overall topic: If, when Luka signs his extension, the team is not in great shape (through any means available) then I think they'll deserve some criticism. Until then, I just don't understand the doom and gloom mentality. I could understand it if they were treading water, but they drastically improved the roster. I could understand it if they had just passed up something that clearly elevated them to contender status, but I don't see what possible move could've done that. They improved the team (more than marginally, imo) and in such a way as to make it EASIER to move these new pieces later for even better ones. I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing a (likely) downside.

---

I agree that we are in a great position currently, but what I will say is next off-season is 100% put up or shut up time. If they fail next off season, they might as well start planning the Luka trade demands down the road. At some point the plan has to happen or it's just all BS.

This is pretty close to accurate, imo. I don't agree with much else that you said, but the above paragraph hits a chord of truth. 

I still think there will be time to salvage the Luka situation at that point, but doing so will be much, much more difficult. What I'm not hearing from anyone is the option the Mavs have passed up that's making you all feel this way. So, while I'll be right there with you next summer if they don't put some young, exciting players together with a certain amount of cost control (not expiring deals, at that point), I don't know that I'll necessarily look back at NOW and choose this as the time where it went wrong.

I’m in your camp that we are in great position currently. I have no complaints just want to stay they course and keep the future bright

Big splash = multiple first round picks 

Salvage the Luka situation = Big splash 

IMO, keeping our picks is key insurance should something unforeseen occur and we need to “salvage the Luka situation”. We aren’t anywhere close to Portland or Milwaukee. THEY are the ones who it makes sense to go all in. We are so far from that point. My view is to wait and go that route AFTER free agency is no longer an option 

Im not saying don’t trade, just saying we should make a smaller cheaper move. KP is already more than Dirk ever had post-Nash.

[KillerLeft]

KP is already more than Dirk ever had post-Nash.

Man, aint that the truth...

[fifteenth]

Killer has the goods on this topic

[ItsGoTime]

I think there's a chance of this happening ("really good chance" is obviously a stretch), but it certainly hasn't happened yet, so I don't get all the doom and gloom about it. So far, since drafting Luka, the vast majority of the decisions they've made have been for the best, imo.

The problem we have as observers, is there is no possible way we can ever know this. We get tidbits after the fact, but those tidbits pale in comparison to the days and days of conversations about trading this guy and getting that guy and drafting that player. That's where the "really good chance" comes in. The chance (we're talking likelihood in percentages, not black and white) that they passed up on a really good deal or a well negotiated deal far exceeds the thought of "best possible path".


I'm also saying, "best possible path" doesn't start now, it started last offseason when some argued to hold out for the 21 Giannis sweepstakes. That makes me wonder how much of that argument was made in the decision making of our FO last offseason and how much of it was bought into? To what degree was that argument in the back of Donnie's mind when talking to other GM's about potential trades? That's what I mean by "really good chance".

Two max players = roughly 60% of the cap, yes? That effectively locks you in to improving through trades and MLE only, unless you bail on Porzingis and probably some other contributors who are here on good contracts. There's nothing wrong with trades, and I'm not suggesting that the roster will be written in stone from next summer on, but moving salary out in exchange for other salary requires a multi-directional fit in terms of intent. This is a much, much smaller target to hit, with much less room for error. If you're not passing up anything of value to maintain other options, and so far, they haven't, why plunge head first into a world where you have only one possible route of escape? 

FA still has a place in Miami's future, they're still talking about a path to Giannis, even after Bam's extension. How many times does it have to be said that the hardest part is getting the player to say "yes". The rest isn't exactly easy, but if our FO is worth anything, it's for sure doable. With Luka and KP, I'm still arguing that we don't NEED that 3rd star, and if we do, it's because KP has proven to not be reliable in getting on the court, which makes his inclusion as a star (and payment as a star) questionable.

Couldn't have said the above better myself, and it 100% supports my view, imo. 

I am not supporting doom and gloom. I myself am in the middle, and like things to stay there. 

I think this offseason with what I believe to be a LARGE upgrade of Curry to JRich, as well as the 180 degree mentality switch of getting offense only guys to getting defense only guys and enforcer types is a really good and promising development. I think it is easier to turn a really good defender into a good enough or even great two-way player because the mentality and drive to become a good defender takes lots more uncelebrated work ethic than it does to be a good offense player. 

Bring to RC that work ethic, and he'll turn you into a serviceable player in the NBA (mostly, there are exceptions to the rule).

[KillerLeft]

@"ItsGoTime" of course Miami extended Bam. He’s a max level difference maker. Dallas absolutely would have done that, too. There is no question in my mind. Nobody is against them adding salary, least of all me. I am hoping they don’t add BAD salary.

It just cost 2 seconds to turn Wright/Jackson into an expiring contract. 

Nobody in this community is arguing against adding Bam Adebayos. We are arguing against adding Wrights and Jacksons.

Notice how Miami did NOT give long term salary to Dragic or Crowder?

[Jason Terry]

@"ItsGoTime" of course Miami extended Bam. He’s a max level difference maker. Dallas absolutely would have done that, too. There is no question in my mind. Nobody is against them adding salary, least of all me. I am hoping they don’t add BAD salary.

It just cost 2 seconds to turn Wright/Jackson into an expiring contract. 

Nobody in this community is arguing against adding Bam Adebayos. We are arguing against adding Wrights and Jacksons.

Notice how Miami did NOT give long term salary to Dragic or Crowder?

Our board would be furious if we were in Miami shoes. They lose Crowder and Jones Jr and replace them with Mo Harkless and Bradley. A wash most likely for a team that just went to the finals. Still, they probably made the right moves

[sefant]

@"ItsGoTime" of course Miami extended Bam. He’s a max level difference maker. Dallas absolutely would have done that, too. There is no question in my mind. Nobody is against them adding salary, least of all me. I am hoping they don’t add BAD salary.

It just cost 2 seconds to turn Wright/Jackson into an expiring contract. 

Nobody in this community is arguing against adding Bam Adebayos. We are arguing against adding Wrights and Jacksons.

Notice how Miami did NOT give long term salary to Dragic or Crowder?

True, but if i am Giannis (depends how smart he is) i would still look at the Heat slightly different now. Overall i think he wants to stay at the Bucks, and the only reason why he considers leaving is winning. Bucks have an old roster. If he doesn't sign the max in the next few weeks, the odds that he leaves going up. Because now it all depends on the outcome of the playoffs.

Before he could sign the max with the Heat without a S & T. Now he pretty much knows that the Heat would lose (probably) valuable parts of the team.
Are the Heat as appealing to Giannis if you join a 31 yr old Jimmy Butler + Bam, and lose 20 yr old Herro in a S & T. The long term future of the Heat doesn't look as good anymore, if a guy like Herro goes to the Bucks. If assets going to the Bucks, Riley have less assets to work with to bring in Beal to pair with Giannis.

All in all, i think the Bam extension now is making things a little more difficult for the Heat. First step is Giannis not signing the super max anyway. Useless discussion until the deadline has passed.

[ItsGoTime]

@ItsGoTime of course Miami extended Bam. He’s a max level difference maker. Dallas absolutely would have done that, too. There is no question in my mind. Nobody is against them adding salary, least of all me. I am hoping they don’t add BAD salary.

Huh? You took that comment and made a large left hand turn. I said that because Miami now has 2 max players but they still are in the news as suitors for Giannis. This was a comment to continue to debunk the notion that we’re dead in the water after Luka extends in free agency. Harder? For sure. Stop looking cause it’s impossible? Not on your life. 

Also, count me in the camp that sees tiers below star level as better options to add to our Wonder Twins than another star.

[KillerLeft]

@ItsGoTime of course Miami extended Bam. He’s a max level difference maker. Dallas absolutely would have done that, too. There is no question in my mind. Nobody is against them adding salary, least of all me. I am hoping they don’t add BAD salary.

Huh? You took that comment and made a large left hand turn. I said that because Miami now has 2 max players but they still are in the news as suitors for Giannis. This was a comment to continue to debunk the notion that we’re dead in the water after Luka extends in free agency. Harder? For sure. Stop looking cause it’s impossible? Not on your life. 

Right, I understood. 

What I’M saying is that the Mavs would ALSO have made that choice. They’ve passed nothing up that resembles Adabayo. I think Miami would’ve PREFERRED having him wait a year, but when they saw that this tactic might upset him, they of course made the sensible choice. 

Crowder helped them a great deal last year, but they quickly adopted the “take a one year deal or leave it” approach with him. This is smart, because the core of their talent is not yet solid enough for a role player like that to make a noticeable difference past this one season. 

Both Miami and Dallas were finalists for Gallinari, too, and I doubt either were trying to convince him to swallow one-year offers. There was a price both teams were comfortable committing to for him, and he chose the bigger payday. Good for both teams!

Dallas was in on the Covington market, but ultimately, he was worth more to Portland. This is encouraging, because he IS worth more to a team built around a 30 year old with no tangible choice but to put the best supporting cast around him as possible. But, Dallas DID kick the tires. 

You maintain flexibility by signing good players to good contracts. If you don’t like the options available, you DON’T sign average players to bad contracts (or trade for them).

What Im saying over and over again is that I don’t think Dallas is making decisions based on accumulating “powder.” I think they’re making decisions based on building the best possible team, and that accumulating powder has, to this point, not been trumped by any other option with which they’ve been presented. 

There might come a time when I DO think a good option has been passed up, snd if/when that happens, I’ll say so. Plenty of ways this CAN still be screwed up. My jihad is against those who believe it’s “either Giannis comes here, or every decision they’ve made since drafting Luka was for nothing.” I don’t NEED more long term salary to be here to feel comfortable evaluating these individual basketball decisions. The only “for powder” move they’ve made so far is the Johnson trade, and NEITHER of the outgoing players had a snowball’s chance in Hell of contributing here this season. Johnson MIGHT. Good trade, imo.

[ClutchDirk]

https://twitter.com/Bucks/status/1332490299642437634

Most likely new Jerseys dropping but could be something else maybe...

[Mavs2019]

https://twitter.com/Bucks/status/1332490299642437634

Most likely new Jerseys dropping but could be something else maybe...

Giannis should consider whether he wants to tie his future (regardless of the Mavs) that have given up five first rounders to gradually improve their roster, didn´t know the CBA on the Connaughton extension and now posted on social media that all the Bucks fans should meet up on a bridge Dec. 1st.

[Hypermav]

Poor Bucks, the debut uniforms probably say Millsap on the back.  Dude gets around.

[ItsGoTime]

What I’M saying is that the Mavs would ALSO have made that choice. They’ve passed nothing up that resembles Adabayo. I think Miami would’ve PREFERRED having him wait a year, but when they saw that this tactic might upset him, they of course made the sensible choice. 

Crowder helped them a great deal last year, but they quickly adopted the “take a one year deal or leave it” approach with him. This is smart, because the core of their talent is not yet solid enough for a role player like that to make a noticeable difference past this one season. 

They are able to do it much easier than we are cause they already have a group of players that they KNOW can get them to the finals. They need to tweek to get them the championship. We aren't all that close to where they are. So of course the Mavs would have made that decision, probably would have made it before making Adebayo got upset about it even (if that is indeed what happened). 

I agree with what you're saying above, but that has nothing to do with what I was saying, so it seemed like an odd jumping off point to make your statement.