Game 33: Dallas Mavericks (19-14) vs. Golden State Warriors (15-17) 132-122 WIN

[Chicagojk]

GSW did improve their shooting, but Mavs stayed hot and secured an important win. Everyone played good game on offense. Didn't like THJ defense

THJ is a trick or treat player.  He has been good this year.  But I have like 5 times a game where I wonder if we would be better without him.  Then he hits a big shot.  His off the ball defense is not good.

Please let this be the real Josh Green.  He doesn’t even need to hit all those shots to be a factor.  He didn’t sink into the corners tonight.  I think confidence is big for him.  Give him consistent minutes and let’s see what happens.

Exum is so good.  Did he get hurt?  Looked like he was limping at the end and I didn’t see him in the bench at the end.

[surfpuckmd]

THJ is a trick or treat player.  He has been good this year.  But I have like 5 times a game where I wonder if we would be better without him.  Then he hits a big shot.  His off the ball defense is not good.

Please let this be the real Josh Green.  He doesn’t even need to hit all those shots to be a factor.  He didn’t sink into the corners tonight.  I think confidence is big for him.  Give him consistent minutes and let’s see what happens.

Exum is so good.  Did he get hurt?  Looked like he was limping at the end and I didn’t see him in the bench at the end.

This is the real Josh Green.  He requires confidence and two healthy elbows and he'll be our starting small forward by the end of January.

[surfpuckmd]

I appreciate Kidd trying a new lineup and giving Hardy an opportunity to start.  It would help us immensely if he could flash some potential over the next few weeks.  We could then swap him for a backup center.  

Glad to get the win on the road.  I'm also hopeful that the Warriors will finish 11th or 12th in the West.

[Jym]

the month sucked at times but I'll take an 8 and 8 record.

so many winnable games coming up in January. One back-to-back. Hopefully can get Ky back soon

[DanSchwartzgan]

I appreciate Kidd trying a new lineup and giving Hardy an opportunity to start. 

I thought the bench was really good tonight.  THJ, Green, Grant and Powell and a PG makes sense on paper.  I thought letting Hardy be the placeholder for Kyrie and having everyone else slot into their logical spot was a good move.  As it turned out bench players THJ and Green (barely) got more minutes than starter Hardy.

Don’t know if it was time off or what, but Green’s body language was better tonight.  He just didn’t seem happy prior to his injury.

[KillerLeft]

I thought the bench was really good tonight.  THJ, Green, Grant and Powell and a PG makes sense on paper.  I thought letting Hardy be the placeholder for Kyrie and having everyone else slot into their logical spot was a good move.  As it turned out bench players THJ and Green (barely) got more minutes than starter Hardy.

Don’t know if it was time off or what, but Green’s body language was better tonight.  He just didn’t seem happy prior to his injury.

Agree with all of the big picture points here, it’s just that I’m so down on Hardy currently that I wish it had been curry instead.

[omahen]

Agree with all of the big picture points here, it’s just that I’m so down on Hardy currently that I wish it had been curry instead.

Curry was not available (illness)

[Mavs2021]

This is the real Josh Green.  He requires confidence and two healthy elbows and he'll be our starting small forward by the end of January.

I think I just need to put him in Charlotte, Indiana or Detroit trades on game day, so he understands the grave consequences of Josh "2pts" Green.

[Chicagojk]

Warriors seem like a team in transition. Last night Paul was great shooting open threes, but that is not really his game. Klay Thompson was awful. I have been a Kuminga fan and keep waiting him to really explode. Playing with Draymond will probably help to give him room to grow. But he still seems like he is still going through his development. Was Moody injured?

I really like their first round draft pick. He is going to be a good one. Seems to be a great fit in the GS system too. Not sure when it happens full time, but he looks like a great connecting guard to put next to Steph. If/when Draymond comes back, maybe he comes off the bench. I don't think they are going to keep him off the starting unit for long. Good rebounder, really moves the ball and looks the part. TJD was also a real nice pick late in the draft. I am surprised he fell so far. I really liked him. He would be the type of player I would want as a backup. Especially at the low cost and low salary.

I thought Grant was solid last night. Loved how he fought for some rebounds. only got 19 minutes. I wonder if he gets some of the minutes crunch when everyone is healthy. Only part of Jones Jr game that is worrisome is the 3 point shoot. Down to 34% and 26 % the last 10. He is showing no hesitancy launching them though.

[Chicagojk]

Warriors seem like a team in transition.  Last night Paul was great shooting open threes, but that is not really his game.  Klay Thompson was awful.  I have been a Kuminga fan and keep waiting him to really explode.  Playing with Draymond will probably help to give him room to grow.  But he still seems like he is still going through his development.  Was Moody injured?

I really like their first round draft pick.  He is going to be a good one.  Seems to be a great fit in the GS system too.  Not sure when it happens full time, but he looks like a great connecting guard to put next to Steph.    If/when Draymond comes back, maybe he comes off the bench.  I don't think they are going to keep him off the starting unit for long.  Good rebounder, really moves the ball and looks the part.  TJD was also a real nice pick late in the draft.  I am surprised he fell so far.  I really liked him.  He would be the type of player I would want as a backup.  Especially at the low cost and low salary.

I thought Grant was solid last night.  Loved how he fought for some rebounds.  only got 19 minutes.  I wonder if he gets some of the minutes crunch when everyone is healthy.  Only part of Jones Jr game that is worrisome is the 3 point shoot.  Down to 34% and 26 % the last 10.  He is showing no hesitancy launching them though.

I forgot to add, the non Luka minutes were fine.  You can't be scared off that you can't give him a rest.  Will it always be a positive?  Nope.   But, he needs his rest.

[DanSchwartzgan]

 
I thought Grant was solid last night.  Loved how he fought for some rebounds.  only got 19 minutes.  I wonder if he gets some of the minutes crunch when everyone is healthy.  Only part of Jones Jr game that is worrisome is the 3 point shoot.  Down to 34% and 26 % the last 10.  He is showing no hesitancy launching them though.

Lively and Powell split all of the C minutes, so that kept Grant from getting any of those.  He and DJJ used up 43 of the PF minutes.  There were two brief stints (end of 2nd and late in the 4th) where the lineup was Lively, Luka, THJ, Green and Exum (+0 combined).

I thought it was interesting that Green was right back to closing the first half and was one of the higher minute players in the fourth.  Despite what some posters think (one of which only posts after losses to tell us how right he was about his negative takes), Kidd appears to hold Green in high regard.  It may have been opponent related as Green is a better matchup than Grant for GS's best offensive players.  It could be different with a different opponent, but I'd suggest news of Green's demise is greatly exaggerated.

Kyrie's return would have taken all of Hardy's minutes in a tight rotation night like last night.  The question is where would he have gotten the other 8-10 minutes to get him to 32/34?  I don't think THJ would have closed halves if Kyrie was available, so I suggest at least half of those minutes would come from THJ and a couple from Luka and a couple from Exum's 34 last night.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Lively and Powell split all of the C minutes, so that kept Grant from getting any of those.  He and DJJ used up 43 of the PF minutes.  There were two brief stints (end of 2nd and late in the 4th) where the lineup was Lively, Luka, THJ, Green and Exum (+0 combined).

I thought it was interesting that Green was right back to closing the first half and was one of the higher minute players in the fourth.  Despite what some posters think (one of which only posts after losses to tell us how right he was about his negative takes), Kidd appears to hold Green in high regard.  It may have been opponent related as Green is a better matchup than Grant for GS's best offensive players.  It could be different with a different opponent, but I'd suggest news of Green's demise is greatly exaggerated.

Kyrie's return would have taken all of Hardy's minutes in a tight rotation night like last night.  The question is where would he have gotten the other 8-10 minutes to get him to 32/34?  I don't think THJ would have closed halves if Kyrie was available, so I suggest at least half of those minutes would come from THJ and a couple from Luka and a couple from Exum's 34 last night.

Green was great last night. The issue that the Mavs have right now is that when your bench consists of Green/Hardaway/Curry/Hardy and an undersized power forward along with Powell/kleber, you’re still very small and have a bit of a logjam. I think a lot of us look at potentially moving Green to add size and break the logjam up not because we think he’s out of favor but because he’s potentially the one with the most trade value. It’s going to be really interesting to see how they address the roster building for this trade deadline and the offseason because this team really isn’t that far off from legit contention (unless we just never get healthy) and there surprisingly seems to be a handful of ways at our disposal all of the sudden to take that next step. Trading Green could be one of the ways but a longterm bench manned by Green/Williams is appealing too if you’re willing to spend that much on the bench

[DanSchwartzgan]

Green was great last night. The issue that the Mavs have right now is that when your bench consists of Green/Hardaway/Curry/Hardy and an undersized power forward along with Powell/kleber, you’re still very small and have a bit of a logjam. I think a lot of us look at potentially moving Green to add size and break the logjam up not because we think he’s out of favor but because he’s potentially the one with the most trade value. It’s going to be really interesting to see how they address the roster building for this trade deadline and the offseason because this team really isn’t that far off from legit contention (unless we just never get healthy) and there surprisingly seems to be a handful of ways at our disposal all of the sudden to take that next step. Trading Green could be one of the ways but a longterm bench manned by Green/Williams is appealing too if you’re willing to spend that much on the bench

I think Curry and Hardy are immaterial to the playoff rotation for a healthy team.  So, I don’t see the logjam.  it is just THJ and Green and both are needed.  

At full strength THJ currently rotates with Kyrie and Luka to provide two “scorers” on the floor.  THJ’s lack of creation and playmaking isn’t ideal for the role, but it is made up by the fact that…

Exum (who can play-make for others) and Green rotate as point of attack defenders.

GWill splits minutes with DJJ as bigger wing defenders.  Grant has gotten a few minutes as a small-ball center recently, but in this game against this team that didn’t happen.  Lively and someone will split center minutes even if Grant gets some.

To me, the rotation at full strength looks like:

Scorers (Luka, Irving and THJ)
POA Defense (Exum and Green)
Bigger Wing D (DJJ and GWill)
Center (Lively and someone….Powell has gotten the bulk of these minutes)

Everyone else is either developmental (OMax and Hardy) or here for injury protection or injured themselves.  To me, Green isn’t the one to jettison.  THJ’s spot would be better used by someone with a more diverse skill set that includes playmaking or defense or even better….both.  If we had a bigger player with that skill set, Green and Exum would be ideal for the remaining role

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I think Curry and Hardy are immaterial to the playoff rotation for a healthy team.  So, I don’t see the logjam.  it is just THJ and Green and both are needed.  

At full strength THJ currently rotates with Kyrie and Luka to provide two “scorers” on the floor.  THJ’s lack of creation and playmaking isn’t ideal for the role, but it is made up by the fact that…

Exum (who can play-make for others) and Green rotate as point of attack defenders.

GWill splits minutes with DJJ as bigger wing defenders.  Grant has gotten a few minutes as a small-ball center recently, but in this game against this team that didn’t happen.  Lively and someone will split center minutes even if Grant gets some.

To me, the rotation at full strength looks like:

Scorers (Luka, Irving and THJ)
POA Defense (Exum and Green)
Bigger Wing D (DJJ and GWill)
Center (Lively and someone….Powell has gotten the bulk of these minutes)

Everyone else is either developmental (OMax and Hardy) or here for injury protection or injured themselves.  To me, Green isn’t the one to jettison.  THJ’s spot would be better used by someone with a more diverse skill set that includes playmaking or defense or even better….both.  If we had a bigger player with that skill set, Green and Exum would be ideal for the remaining role

I agree with all this but I would add (and I know we kind of disagree on this front) that the players you have listed defending bigger wings aren’t really that big of wings themselves. I also think that while DJJ can defend off ball (you win) he’s also shown to be able to defend the point of attack in the event that Green is jettison so you don’t really lose that (in fact you get better there because Green is still just a POA defender on paper in my opinion, I want to see better screen navigation). You obviously have to consider Green vs DJJs contract though because while DJJ can help you survive losing Green this season he may be gone by next season. Overall I’m pro keeping Green into next season but trading him is something I’m way more open to now than I was in October.

Right now everything is kind of a good problem to have, it’s amazing they got the roster into this position based on where we were when we made the Kyrie trade. If I was the GM I’d be looking at Holmes/Hardy/SRP trades this deadline and then Hardaway/Maxi/FRP(s) trades this offseason to fill out the roster but there’s a lot of different ways to skin this cat right now is all I’m saying.

[mvossman]

I think Curry and Hardy are immaterial to the playoff rotation for a healthy team.  So, I don’t see the logjam.  it is just THJ and Green and both are needed.  

At full strength THJ currently rotates with Kyrie and Luka to provide two “scorers” on the floor.  THJ’s lack of creation and playmaking isn’t ideal for the role, but it is made up by the fact that…

Exum (who can play-make for others) and Green rotate as point of attack defenders.

GWill splits minutes with DJJ as bigger wing defenders.  Grant has gotten a few minutes as a small-ball center recently, but in this game against this team that didn’t happen.  Lively and someone will split center minutes even if Grant gets some.

To me, the rotation at full strength looks like:

Scorers (Luka, Irving and THJ)
POA Defense (Exum and Green)
Bigger Wing D (DJJ and GWill)
Center (Lively and someone….Powell has gotten the bulk of these minutes)

Everyone else is either developmental (OMax and Hardy) or here for injury protection or injured themselves.  To me, Green isn’t the one to jettison.  THJ’s spot would be better used by someone with a more diverse skill set that includes playmaking or defense or even better….both.  If we had a bigger player with that skill set, Green and Exum would be ideal for the remaining role

Yep.  This is how I see it.  I don't see it likely that we make the THJ swap at the TDL, but the offseason goals should be:

Replace Timmy with a bigger two way player (many assets at our disposal for this)
Get a quality backup center
figure out a way to keep DJJ

In an ideal world, you use Timmy, Holmes and Hardy as trade fodder and hold on to everyone else.

[KillerLeft]

I think Curry and Hardy are immaterial to the playoff rotation for a healthy team.  So, I don’t see the logjam.  it is just THJ and Green and both are needed.  

At full strength THJ currently rotates with Kyrie and Luka to provide two “scorers” on the floor.  THJ’s lack of creation and playmaking isn’t ideal for the role, but it is made up by the fact that…

Exum (who can play-make for others) and Green rotate as point of attack defenders.

GWill splits minutes with DJJ as bigger wing defenders.  Grant has gotten a few minutes as a small-ball center recently, but in this game against this team that didn’t happen.  Lively and someone will split center minutes even if Grant gets some.

To me, the rotation at full strength looks like:

Scorers (Luka, Irving and THJ)
POA Defense (Exum and Green)
Bigger Wing D (DJJ and GWill)
Center (Lively and someone….Powell has gotten the bulk of these minutes)

Everyone else is either developmental (OMax and Hardy) or here for injury protection or injured themselves.  To me, Green isn’t the one to jettison.  THJ’s spot would be better used by someone with a more diverse skill set that includes playmaking or defense or even better….both.  If we had a bigger player with that skill set, Green and Exum would be ideal for the remaining role

Agree completely with the analysis of what they're doing, currently. 

I think the goal is for the mystery man to be Kleber, making the THIRD option at center be either Powell or Williams, depending on the matchup. In some games, that third guy wouldn't be needed at all, but in others, he would be fairly important as a pivot from the game plan, response to foul trouble, etc, etc. 

I don't know that I see Green and Hardaway the way you do, but I understand where you're coming from. I actually feel like Hardaway is much more consistent than Green and has added a lot of different types of scoring and involvement this season. He doesn't appear to be getting credit for any of it around here (go figure). I'm not sure I see  either of them as the problem, but if pressed I'd say Hardaway has been more key to the team's success than Green. 

You habitually suggest that a 4 could replicate enough of the positives of THJ's role to enable the Mavs to give all of THJ's minutes to Exum/Green. I get what you're going for, as that would help in some ways, but I don't agree that Hardaway's contributions could be replaced so easily. You add a Siakim, for example: Sure, he replaces some socring, and would definitely need some shots. However, I think you're underestimating what the THREAT of THJ's specific TYPE of scoring gets the Mavs. They're starting to run plays for him again...running him around multiple screens, etc. A significant portion of their offensive system is designed for him this year, truth be told. This is probably why they signed Curry when it looked like THJ was to be traded - in case Hardy wasn't up to it (and surprise! He was not). 

Long story short - I think the way the team is designed to be played this season means that trading THJ for ANYONE (unless it's a similar player, like Hield) results in either Curry or Hardy getting a substantial bump in playing time. I do NOT believe it would result in more backcourt defense around Luka/Kyrie, and since I believe Curry and/or Hardy are defensive downgrades from Hardaway, I think it would have the opposite of the effect you're going for. 

Further, I think adding another 4 would unquestionably result in either less Williams or less DJJ. I get the idea that you believe Exum and Green would slide down a position, freeing up minutes for Williams, DJJ and *new guy* to rotate between TWO positions, basically. I don't see it. I think they're all splitting time at the 4, usually, meaning one doesn't play much at all, while Green and Exum split the same minutes they always have and Curry (probably) gets a regular role. 

Do you try this, if the get is someone on Siakim's level? Probably, yeah. But, doing something just get someone more "ideal" than Hardaway, as if Hardaway is some sort of roster building problem, is misguided, imo. I have been sticking up for him for years, but THIS YEAR is easily his best, most tailor-fitting role here since Carlisle left. I'd say he's close to the top of the "what's working" list.

---

Yep.  This is how I see it.  I don't see it likely that we make the THJ swap at the TDL, but the offseason goals should be:

Replace Timmy with a bigger two way player (many assets at our disposal for this)
Get a quality backup center
figure out a way to keep DJJ

In an ideal world, you use Timmy, Holmes and Hardy as trade fodder and hold on to everyone else.

I can get on board with this plan going into the summer. I just think it's too drastic of a change to do now or at the deadline and expect to compete this year, for all the reasons I mentioned above.