Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms

[mvossman]

In what world does DeRozan not start over DJJ?

He would, but it is not a good defensive fit.  You have two big wings that are not great perimeter defenders (Luka and DeRozan) and no point of attack defender.  I had the same issue with Kuz (although I like DeRozan a lot more than Kuz).  I would be more than happy to take him for Timmy and a couple of seconds, but I think he will be significantly more expensive than that.

[Mavs2021]

DeRozan will cost a lot more than that.  He scored 24 a game on good efficiency and can create for himself and others.  As you mentioned he is on a really good contract.  He also played 38 minutes a game and only missed 3, so there is no sign of wearing down yet.  I think he costs at least a first and probably more.

I´m really curious to see how teams adjust to the new salary cap realities with regards to these veteran players. You won´t see massive multi-year contracts for players 33+ years old anymore. Maybe if it is a legacy deal and even those I expect to stay in the $20-25M range. Klay Thompson will be an interesting case for that. DeRozan is another. He will have to ask himself whether he wants that little extra money or use his remaining years to contend for a title. To be fair he´s been very healthy and still performing at a high level, but that can turn quickly and you become a CP3, where teams just move you around as dead salary.

I´m probably the biggest DeRozan fan around, but if we weren´t so short on assets, I´d look elsewhere due to his age. I think as an UFA he has a significant amount of leverage to force the Bulls hand into a cheapish S&T. 

I´m really trying to find the next Washington or Gafford. Value contracts. Great age. Give Washington another 12 months of All-NBA defense and you can probably flip him for multiple first round picks, if you wanted to. DeRozan is a dead asset.


I just have a hard time identifying those players now. I plead my case for Randle, Markkanen, Washington in free agency.

On paper Lavine would be perfect fit here as the 3rd scorer. I would not even be concerned about his salary (if we found a way), cause the cap will probably explode again with the Amazon deal looming. We can account for his defensive shortcomings. Afterall we are the best defense in the league now.  

It´s his knees that scare the living Porzingis out of me.

Nickail Alexander-Walker (12 months left on his contract) and Anfernee Simons (24 months left) are the two names I keep coming back to. Simons is probably more of a target for next season, but it can´t hurt to lay the groundwork right now. Talk to his agent and the Blazers, register your interest. In 12 months we have more assets to trade, he´s on an expiring contract and probably even more tired of losing. Problem is can you wait that long for him with the Luka timebomb ticking? He´s a perfect target. Same age as Luka. Has shown he can be a #1 scorer. Can shoot, can attack. Blistering fast. 

Gary Trent Jr. is probably very available and could be that 3pt flamethrower for us. THJ + Powell + minor asset?  He´d be a possible THJ repacement. His teammate Jordan Nwora is probably a more realistic target, cheaper too.

If we could turn THJ + Powell + 2nd round picks into GTJ + Nwora, it´s probably a good summer. If we turn it into Simons and Nwora, while retaining DJJ, I think that´s the moment we have arrived as a championship roster.

Doncic/Simons/Exum
Irving/Green/Hardy
DJJ/Nwora/X
Washington/Kleber/Omax
Gafford/Lively/X

At that point your asset locker is empty, but you also have a core that can play together for the next 5-7 years with th exception of Kyrie and Kleber. Would be amazing to pull this roster transformation off, considering how hopeless our future (outside of Luka) was just 10 months ago. The tank changed everything.

[KillerLeft]

I just don’t understand how people are watching this offense and reaching the conclusion that DeMar DeRozan is a fix.

The reason Luka is not playing as well as he did two years ago is that the spacing is a shell of what it was back then. That is partly due to the fact that the current system doesn’t care about spacing, which sucks, but it is also just because there are literally no good shooters in the rotation outside of Kleber and Hardaway, who is hurt right now and would probably be in a slump still, even if healthy.

Don’t get me wrong – I am enjoying this new, athletic, defensive-minded roster. But, it is the year 2024 and your ball handlers need the option to shoot or drive. There just isn’t space to drive into right now for Luka, and DeRozan would make that worse, not better. I struggle to think of a worse fit for this team than DeMar DeRozan.

[omahen]

DeRozan will cost a lot more than that.  He scored 24 a game on good efficiency and can create for himself and others.  As you mentioned he is on a really good contract.  He also played 38 minutes a game and only missed 3, so there is no sign of wearing down yet.  I think he costs at least a first and probably more.

DeRozan is a free agent. The only realistic way for him to come to Dallas is if he would be ring hunting and accept a MLE level deal. Still, I would not be enthusiastic about the fit.

The guy I keep coming around would be Brogdon. I think he would be a perfect 6th man for this team. Decent all around guy. Could carry the second unit and play with Luka, Kyrie or both. Keep the team, bring Brogdon instead of THJ and I would be very optimistic about our chances. But, it seems he didn't want to leave Portland at TDL.

[KillerLeft]

The reason Kyrie works here, despite being the type of player who needs the ball according to popular belief, is that he ALSO has a dynamite catch and shoot game. This is literally the one area where he is an improvement over Brunson, and it benefits the Mavs greatly.

Frankly, the next step for the Mavericks offense might be for Luka to follow Kyrie’s lead and develop more of an off-ball game.

Anyway, anyone new added to this mix MUST be able to find ways to make themself a threat off-ball, regardless of what else they bring to the table.

[F Gump]

DeRozan is a free agent. The only realistic way for him to come to Dallas is if he would be ring hunting and accept a MLE level deal. Still, I would not be enthusiastic about the fit.

The guy I keep coming around would be Brogdon. I think he would be a perfect 6th man for this team. Decent all around guy. Could carry the second unit and play with Luka, Kyrie or both. Keep the team, bring Brogdon instead of THJ and I would be very optimistic about our chances. But, it seems he didn't want to leave Portland at TDL.

No thanks. Brogdon is not a plus defender anymore. And he's very brittle, with very high odds he won't be able to play in the playoffs due to injury. As a member of POR media puts it, he "gets injured with alarming frequency." This year he didn't even make it to the ASG before breaking down. Pass.

[mvossman]

DeRozan is a free agent. The only realistic way for him to come to Dallas is if he would be ring hunting and accept a MLE level deal. Still, I would not be enthusiastic about the fit.

The guy I keep coming around would be Brogdon. I think he would be a perfect 6th man for this team. Decent all around guy. Could carry the second unit and play with Luka, Kyrie or both. Keep the team, bring Brogdon instead of THJ and I would be very optimistic about our chances. But, it seems he didn't want to leave Portland at TDL.

I must have misread 2021 post.  I thought he said he was on a 3 year descending contract, but maybe that is what he was proposing.  MLE would not be the only option, they could S&T, right? (not that I am advocating for this).

Brogdon would make some sense, but I think his defense is overrated and his injury history is scary.

[Mavs2021]

I just don’t understand how people are watching this offense and reaching the conclusion that DeMar DeRozan is a fix.

The reason Luka is not playing as well as he did two years ago is that the spacing is a shell of what it was back then. That is partly due to the fact that the current system doesn’t care about spacing, which sucks, but it is also just because there are literally no good shooters in the rotation outside of Kleber and Hardaway, who is hurt right now and would probably be in a slump still, even if healthy.

Don’t get me wrong – I am enjoying this new, athletic, defensive-minded roster. But, it is the year 2024 and your ball handlers need the option to shoot or drive. There just isn’t space to drive into right now for Luka, and DeRozan would make that worse, not better. I struggle to think of a worse fit for this team than DeMar DeRozan.

Our problem is not just spacing related. It´s moreso an issue of the players being scared to shoot, having no ability to create off the dribble. The opponents simply have no respect for them and they can focus on Luka/Kyrie, cause we cannot play them off the ball, since literally nobody else on this team can dribble a basketball, let alone run an offense. 

DeRozan is a great ballhandler, unlike many of the 3pt options we will surely discuss shortly. Basically what you need is a former star, willing to sacrifice and play a role (think Bosh, Love, Gordon), but still know what it means to be the man. Luka and Kyrie are great shooters. Why can´t they defer for stretches of the game and be the spot up shooters. You think the defense can play off Luka and Kyrie, like they do for Washington, DJJ, Kleber or Green, when DeRozan is cooking in the midrange?

[omahen]

No thanks. Brogdon is not a plus defender anymore. And he's very brittle, with very high odds he won't be able to play in the playoffs due to injury. As a member of POR media puts it, he "gets injured with alarming frequency." This year he didn't even make it to the ASG before breaking down. Pass.

I don't expect an all NBA defender, not looking for that. But Brogdon is still a smart and reliable player. His last season with the tanking Portland defense with him playing was better than without him. I don't think Portland wanted him to be the best possible version of himself and it is totally possible they were sitting him on purpose due to their tanking goals. He played 67 games for Boston just a season ago and won 6th man of the year. The team held their own in his minutes on the court. Both offense and defense stayed very similar in his minutes. If you are looking for a better all around player, you are looking for a star. Something you argued against a lot in some previous discussions.

He is a smart and reliable player capable of backing up stars. Not looking for him to be one. It is the 6th man role that I want him in. To be there to provide consistent minutes with bench unit so that Mavs don't need to run Luka and Kai to the ground through regular season. And to provide some stability in playoffs. You can't argue he is not a far better fit than Hardaway. I would not be after him because he is an all NBA defender or because he is a star on offense. I like him because he is decent on both ends on the floor and brings stability. Something Mavs lack a lot. Even though Luka is not his best self so far, Mavs can't afford to rest him, because there is no reliability on the bench.

I think playoffs so far showed Mavs have plenty of good defenders. They lack another scorer who can be also a solid defender. Brogdon is that.

Edit: I know you proposed Caruso in the past. I like him a lot. But, looking at Mavs in this series, I am not sure the result would be much different. His last season is his best season offensively by far where he almost doubled his ppg compared to a season ago. Not to mention his injury history is very similar to the one of Brogdon. This past season was his first where he played more than 70 games (71 total).

[Mavs2021]

I don't expect an all NBA defender, not looking for that. But Brogdon is still a smart and reliable player. His last season with the tanking Portland defense with him playing was better than without him. I don't think Portland wanted him to be the best possible version of himself and it is totally possible they were sitting him on purpose due to their tanking goals. He played 67 games for Boston just a season ago and won 6th man of the year. The team held their own in his minutes on the court. Both offense and defense stayed very similar in his minutes. If you are looking for a better all around player, you are looking for a star. Something you argued against a lot in some previous discussions.

He is a smart and reliable player capable of backing up stars. Not looking for him to be one. It is the 6th man role that I want him in. To be there to provide consistent minutes with bench unit so that Mavs don't need to run Luka and Kai to the ground through regular season. And to provide some stability in playoffs. You can't argue he is not a far better fit than Hardaway. I would not be after him because he is an all NBA defender or because he is a star on offense. I like him because he is decent on both ends on the floor and brings stability. Something Mavs lack a lot. Even though Luka is not his best self so far, Mavs can't afford to rest him, because there is no reliability on the bench.

I think playoffs so far showed Mavs have plenty of good defenders. They lack another scorer who can be also a solid defender. Brogdon is that.

Edit: I know you proposed Caruso in the past. I like him a lot. But, looking at Mavs in this series, I am not sure the result would be much different. His last season is his best season offensively by far where he almost doubled his ppg compared to a season ago. Not to mention his injury history is very similar to the one of Brogdon. This past season was his first where he played more than 70 games (71 total).

Brogdon is not a good choice. Not only because of play-off availability question marks, but we need a durable PG for the regular season to keep Luka/Kyrie fresh. Exum is already missing too many games. We don´t need another injury-prone player in his 30s.

[SleepingHero]

@TheDunkCentral
The New York Knicks are reportedly ‘willing to offer almost anything’ to pair Devin Booker with Jalen Brunson, per
@GeraldBourguet


“He and Jalen Brunson would form an electrifying, high-scoring backcourt for one the NBA’s most pleasant surprises, and according to a source, New York would be willing to offer almost anything to make that pairing happen.”

[SleepingHero]

@TheDunkCentral
Devin Booker reportedly wants to spend his career with one team, like Kobe Bryant, per
@GeraldBourguet


“There may come a day where Booker is convinced he can no longer win with the Suns and decides to pursue titles elsewhere. But that day isn’t here yet, according to the source within Booker’s camp. As a student of the game and its history, Booker understands the value of sticking with one franchise for his entire career, following in the footsteps of guys like his idol Kobe Bryant.”

[michaeltex]

Rumors are that Vogel is circling the drain in PHX. Main claim-to-fame is the 2020 Bubble Championship. Wonder if he gets another shot as a HC or if it's time to do something else.

[mvossman]

Rumors are that Vogel is circling the drain in PHX. Main claim-to-fame is the 2020 Bubble Championship. Wonder if he gets another shot as a HC or if it's time to do something else.

Might end up on Kidd's staff next year.

[Chicagojk]

DeRozan is a free agent. The only realistic way for him to come to Dallas is if he would be ring hunting and accept a MLE level deal. Still, I would not be enthusiastic about the fit.

The guy I keep coming around would be Brogdon. I think he would be a perfect 6th man for this team. Decent all around guy. Could carry the second unit and play with Luka, Kyrie or both. Keep the team, bring Brogdon instead of THJ and I would be very optimistic about our chances. But, it seems he didn't want to leave Portland at TDL.

I could get behind Brogdan.  I am just not sure I would be willing to pay the price for him.    One of my #1 wishes for next year is to not run down Luka and Kyrie early in the season.    Exum has been very good when healthy (not so in the playoffs yet), but I am not sure if you can count on him for heavy minutes.    I also want Jalen to get a spot in the rotation.   Brogdan is a smart player though.  Hits open shots. Can create and is a good sized player.  If the offer was at a discount, I would be willing to jump at him.   I am just not sure I would include Green and I wouldn't include a future first for him.

Actually a player like Dinwiddie makes sense.  He has been pretty bad this year, so I am not sure what his market is.   Probably higher than we could offer but he could be a cheap alternative.

[F Gump]

I could get behind Brogdan.

I can tell my points are being ignored, but I will say it again - we do NOT want Brogdon.

There are several significant reasons, and each of them alone would be a disqualifier.

The 1st is that he is NOT the quality of player you think he is. He's not two-way, not anymore. He doesn't (perhaps he can't, because of injuries?) play good defense anymore. Just the opposite- he's really bad. Over the last 4-5 years, he has been about the WORST defender on his team, per B-R def ratings. He is now a BAD defender. 

Whereas, the #1 first-priority criteria for a player to play alongside Luka-Kyrie is that they defend at a good-to-excellent level, to make up for the deficiencies of Luka-Kyrie. For role players, the Mavs need defenders, who they can hopefully find some offense from, rather than offense-only guys who make getting stops impossible.

The 2nd is that he is NOT someone you can rely on, because his knees are broken. Typically he plays half a season (or less). It's the KP thing, where you don't know when he will be injured each season, but you know it's gonna happen. It's very likely that he would never play a playoff game, because he can't make it to those games 83-and-beyond healthy.

The 3rd is that he gets paid way more money than you should ever pay to a one-way, no-defense, ever-injured player. He's about double the MLE. The cost in assets, just to make the trade and match salary (you have to send more than 22.5M in outgoing salary), will be far more than he's worth, and you only get a half-the-games, no-defense guy with broken knees.

Hard pass.

[KillerLeft]

As we've learned, availability is something you have to put your foot down about. Can't work around a player who's too often injured.

[dirkfansince1998]

I can tell my points are being ignored, but I will say it again - we do NOT want Brogdon.

There are several significant reasons, and each of them alone would be a disqualifier.

The 1st is that he is NOT the quality of player you think he is. He's not two-way, not anymore. He doesn't (perhaps he can't, because of injuries?) play good defense anymore. Just the opposite- he's really bad. Over the last 4-5 years, he has been about the WORST defender on his team, per B-R def ratings. He is now a BAD defender. 

Whereas, the #1 first-priority criteria for a player to play alongside Luka-Kyrie is that they defend at a good-to-excellent level, to make up for the deficiencies of Luka-Kyrie. For role players, the Mavs need defenders, who they can hopefully find some offense from, rather than offense-only guys who make getting stops impossible.

The 2nd is that he is NOT someone you can rely on, because his knees are broken. Typically he plays half a season (or less). It's the KP thing, where you don't know when he will be injured each season, but you know it's gonna happen. It's very likely that he would never play a playoff game, because he can't make it to those games 83-and-beyond healthy.

The 3rd is that he gets paid way more money than you should ever pay to a one-way, no-defense, ever-injured player. He's about double the MLE. The cost in assets, just to make the trade and match salary (you have to send more than 22.5M in outgoing salary), will be far more than he's worth, and you only get a half-the-games, no-defense guy with broken knees.

Hard pass.

I can get behind the injury concerns but all we are learning from bball refs defensive rating is that Brogdon isn't getting a lot of dreb, steals and blocks. Looking at his +/- and on/off he has been a net positive on defense in every single season since 2019.

[mvossman]

I can tell my points are being ignored, but I will say it again - we do NOT want Brogdon.

There are several significant reasons, and each of them alone would be a disqualifier.

The 1st is that he is NOT the quality of player you think he is. He's not two-way, not anymore. He doesn't (perhaps he can't, because of injuries?) play good defense anymore. Just the opposite- he's really bad. Over the last 4-5 years, he has been about the WORST defender on his team, per B-R def ratings. He is now a BAD defender. 

I'm not in the pro Brogdon camp primarily due to health concerns, but if you are going to use defensive stats to make a case I would suggest not using B-R def ratings, as its based on box scores which are extremely limited in describing defense.  His defensive rating on EPM and DPM are slightly below average and his defensive rating (on/off based, not box score) is not bad compared to the rest of his team the last couple of years.  You especially have to take this last season numbers with a grain of salt given he was on a bad tanking team (we learned that lesson with PJ).  He is probably not a guy you want as your primary point of attack defender, but his defense is probably above average for a 6th man.  It would definitely be an upgrade over Timmy.  He would be a very good fit for 6th man on this team if we could trust him to stay on the court, but we already have one of those and are only paying him 3 mil a year.

[SleepingHero]

LeBron James (@KingJames)
OMG KYRIE!!!!!!!! That’s was INSANE

Mr. James speaks his thoughts!