Trade & FA 2023-24: Booker Likes NYK? Vogel Out? Suns Imploding?

[SleepingHero]

Hate to be this guy, because I love Butler as a player, but...same objection I'd have with DeRozan: just can't put a complete non-shooter out there next to Luka/Kyrie, imho. Shooting is already a struggle, as is.

I mean we've managed to be very successful running 2 non-shooters next to Luka and Kyrie the entire season. I don't see why Butler couldn't work either. Especially since he's shooting 40% from 3 this year and has every move in the book at getting to the rim!


But after reviewing his contract I think a trade for him is pretty much improbable because I'm not giving up any of PJ/Gafford/Maxi/ for him.

[MarkAguirreWrathofGod]

I mean we've managed to be very successful running 2 non-shooters next to Luka and Kyrie the entire season. I don't see why Butler couldn't work either. Especially since he's shooting 40% from 3 this year and has every move in the book at getting to the rim!


But after reviewing his contract I think a trade for him is pretty much improbable because I'm not giving up any of PJ/Gafford/Maxi/ for him.

Yeah no interest in paying Jimmy Butler 50m to play 50 games at half speed and hope he stays healthy for the playoffs. And he will cause issues if he doesn’t get a huge extension.

[dirkfansince1998]

I mean we've managed to be very successful running 2 non-shooters next to Luka and Kyrie the entire season. I don't see why Butler couldn't work either. Especially since he's shooting 40% from 3 this year and has every move in the book at getting to the rim!


But after reviewing his contract I think a trade for him is pretty much improbable because I'm not giving up any of PJ/Gafford/Maxi/ for him.

Just thinking about the role and Butler's prefered spots it's not the same. He isn't a rim runner. Butler operates on the ellbow. Likes to post up or face up. That's difficult to integrate into an offense that is all about the pick and roll and perimeter isos. Was the same with KP.

[DallasMaverick]

Hardy has shown plenty of flashes late in the season. I'm not sure what was going on with him in the first part of the season but he was bricking everything. Something happened maybe adding strength in the offseason or something because there was a big decline early on. His shot mechanics are very consistent and clean tho. He started hitting his shots and the shots always looked pretty. Ball handling WAY improved over what it was last year. Don't care about the stats, use your eyes. Passing improving as well. He's thrown many lobs for his limited minutes already when we're all enamored when THJ managed to throw a single one. To me he's made a giant leap in ball handling, which was his biggest weakness. He's getting separation to create his own midrange shots. He's passing better. He needs more time and is on the right track. He's always been a useful catch & shoot player. Looking ahead to next season he's already ready to take over for THJ. Luka/Kyrie/Exum/Hardy is enough for the ball handlers. If THJ could somehow be moved for a better version of DJJ it'd be perfect. If they manage to keep DJJ that's good too.

I’ll trade you my bright, shiny nickel (Hardy) for you dull old quarter (THJ)!

[mvossman]

DAL gave Hardy the keys during the summer league and he failed to impress. Poor shooting percentage, poor decision making, although showing lots of athleticism. Never seemed to rise above that early in the season, even when given a somewhat regular b/u role, so he's been buried on the bench.  Sure, he shows some flashes, but he still seems like the game hasn't quite slowed down for him yet. He was supposed to grow into the 3rd ball handler spot, but obviouisly the coaches don't have enough confidence to trust him in that role. Exum had the opening and he's claimed it very well.

IMO, Hardy, along with Powell and THJ are all tradeable this summer. Maybe Green, depending on his contribution in the playoffs.

I feel like they didn't do Hardy any favors in summer league.  He should play the Timmy role as a catch and shoot player who takes advantage of other player creation.  From there he can slowly work in other parts of his game as things slow down for him.

[youzigizag]

Hardy doesnt make the best basketball play consistent enough for me yet.

Like THJ, he thinks he needs to shoot when the ball is in his hands.

We have seen and discussed this on this board...no one likes that style of play. Get a better team player on the team that at least considers passing the rock.

I will be hounded with bad excuses as to why THJ and Hardy do this and wont buy it.

I use to be hard on Hardy about his fumbling his crossover all the time in to turnovers. He seems to have cleaned that up...credit there. I like his style when he attacks the rim. I like his passing ability when he does it. I dont like his Alan Iverson/And-1 ball handling...its too 1990's...but it is a skill...just not something you employ in the NBA unless you are Godly like Luka and Kyrie...he is good at it though when he doesnt fumble it.

Hardy like THJ...just hasnt shown consistent good decision making on the basketball court. He is very talented though and there is something there. I just think he might be blinded by a "gotta get mine" trait or "main character syndrome"

If the way Hardy and even Brandon Williams plays is because old vets in bball circles tell the young guys to go get yours because other guys will go get theirs and arent considering you....I kind of see this as bad advice if some kids are just ball hogging instead of making best basketball play because they think they need to show out to be noticed. I understand these guys are grinding for a nice paycheck and when they get their opportunity to shine they think they need to seize it...but there is a fine line. The advice should be to seize your opportunity but make the best decisions while doing it.

[omahen]

Im not sure what evidence there is that the Mavs are all in for Kyrie two year window?  

They are doing everything to build as good a team as possible around Kyrie and Luka. Gafford and PJ are not old, but they are both on their second contract. Mavs also don't control any of their picks from 2027 to 2030. No idea how they plan to replace Kyrie in a couple of years when needed, because they will not have (good) picks to draft a star nor draft assets to trade for one. In two years, Kyrie and Maxi will be 34. The only really young players are Lively, Omax and Hardy. I don't see a star here. The rest are more or less what they are. If age slows down Kyrie, Mavs will have imho huge problems to build a contender.

[Scott41theMavs]

They are doing everything to build as good a team as possible around Kyrie and Luka. Gafford and PJ are not old, but they are both on their second contract. Mavs also don't control any of their picks from 2027 to 2030. No idea how they plan to replace Kyrie in a couple of years when needed, because they will not have (good) picks to draft a star nor draft assets to trade for one. In two years, Kyrie and Maxi will be 34. The only really young players are Lively, Omax and Hardy. I don't see a star here. The rest are more or less what they are. If age slows down Kyrie, Mavs will have imho huge problems to build a contender.

You aren't wrong.

[F Gump]

You aren't wrong.

I am one who sees nothing wrong with maximizing a window of opportunity when it opens, and running with it for as long as you can. And it appears they have one.

IOW for me the time to worry about Kyrie no longer being great, is when Kyrie starts to regularly have games where he's sucky. And we aren't getting that at all right now.

[mvossman]

They are doing everything to build as good a team as possible around Kyrie and Luka. Gafford and PJ are not old, but they are both on their second contract. Mavs also don't control any of their picks from 2027 to 2030. No idea how they plan to replace Kyrie in a couple of years when needed, because they will not have (good) picks to draft a star nor draft assets to trade for one. In two years, Kyrie and Maxi will be 34. The only really young players are Lively, Omax and Hardy. I don't see a star here. The rest are more or less what they are. If age slows down Kyrie, Mavs will have imho huge problems to build a contender.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying, but it doesn't change the fact that their actions do not imply a hyperfocus on the next two years.  They appear to be looking longer term than that.  Maybe its partly because they are not looking at Kyrie as a 2 year window.  Some of the guys we have been talking about trading for (George, Butler) are older now then Kyrie will be in two years, and he has not shown any real sign of decline yet.  Who knows, maybe in a couple of years we will actually be a destination with the Luka/Kyrie combo and can land another big fish during Kyrie decline years.

[RGP1981]

They are doing everything to build as good a team as possible around Kyrie and Luka. Gafford and PJ are not old, but they are both on their second contract. Mavs also don't control any of their picks from 2027 to 2030. No idea how they plan to replace Kyrie in a couple of years when needed, because they will not have (good) picks to draft a star nor draft assets to trade for one. In two years, Kyrie and Maxi will be 34. The only really young players are Lively, Omax and Hardy. I don't see a star here. The rest are more or less what they are. If age slows down Kyrie, Mavs will have imho huge problems to build a contender.

And this is exactly why I kept bringing up Dejounte Murray some time ago.

[Jason Terry]

In general I like all your comments, although I don't quite agree with them all. 

1 I like the swing they took on Hardy, and the way they tried. But I don't think he's going to be a keeper - looks to me like he's still the wild inefficient chucker he always was, two years away from being two years away from maybe being efficiently productive in the rotation. 

2 I like the moves in the last draft, but don't credit them to Nico personally (other than Nico now having someone who can negotiate deals effectively). I credit those ideas to Lindsey, a professional NBA GM who has done this stuff before, and made good deals. Although I do credit Nico for listening.

3 It wouldn't surprise me at all if 1st rounders are readily available, with the way this draft is being talked about. I've actually thought the same idea, that this might be a draft you could sneak into and get a guy you think is overlooked and you really like, so thanks for bringing up the idea.

4 I would love to wake up and hear the Mavs had pulled off your proposed deal (THJ + 58, for a 1st that lands someone Lindsey likes a lot, assuming there is one). 

5 But the part about taking players to waive, I jumped ship on that part. 

6 And the most practical target might be a 2nd rounder who is a 2-way to start with. But what if you can simply buy a 2nd rounder?

7 I do like the idea of trying to get another player to develop. Gotta keep actively looking and trying, even if some don't work out as well as others. So far imo on recent tries, Lively is an A, OMax a D, and Hardy an F, but keep at it. Learn to scout better and develop better, by trying.

8 If this team is really good in the playoffs, we shouldn't expect that raw players will get many minutes next season. The Mavs will be investing the bulk of their minutes in their best, as they are honing skills and chemistry for playoffs.

1. I was out on Hardy and still am mostly, but he looks to have found a little something 2nd half of this year. More than anything i liked the gamble on drafting him.  I would like to keep him for 1 more year as cheap Kyrie insurance, but i don’t see any way that Klutch doesn’t force us to trade him. So it’s likely all a moot point 

2. I’m fascinated by how the Nico regime works. Good interview with Nico and Brad Townsend a few days ago. Nico trying to hold back and not give away the secrets. 

4/5. If we’re using THJ to do something in the draft, it’s unlikely a team would be able to absorb his contract without giving something back. Orlando could. But if we’re GETTING a pick, then we should expect bad expiring salary coming back to us. Then we dump that player. 

Forget about fit for a second, but THJ to the Clippers for PJ Tucker and pick 47 is a deal that i would do if we had a guy we liked there. We make the pick and waive Tucker. I don’t see the problem with something like that. 

The other issue with trading THJ is we need to make room under the apron to re-sign DJJ. Just another benefit of a plan like this 

7/8. I think we NEED another developmental type player because there’s not enough minutes. We are already deep and we need young guys who can sit on the bench and not complain. Lawson getting a standard contract seems like a step towards doing this exact thing. Plus it’s nice to have young unproven prospects for trades

[Jason Terry]

I am one who sees nothing wrong with maximizing a window of opportunity when it opens, and running with it for as long as you can. And it appears they have one.

IOW for me the time to worry about Kyrie no longer being great, is when Kyrie starts to regularly have games where he's sucky. And we aren't getting that at all right now.

I’m fine with doing this approach. Within reason though. Teams that get to our current position often screw if all up by going all in on some overrated veteran name and it almost always blows up in their face. Beal, Westbrook Lakers, Westbrook Rockets, Lillard, Lowry, Gobert, Durant. Teams just can’t help themselves and they get greedy and all of those windows shut immediately after making that big move. 

I much prefer what the Celtics have done. Make a trade every year or so using 1 single FRP. If it costs more than that, it’s a stupid deal no matter what 

More bites at the apple. More smart frugal decisions. More growing our own young players

[Knutsen]

I’m fine with doing this approach. Within reason though. Teams that get to our current position often screw if all up by going all in on some overrated veteran name and it almost always blows up in their face. Beal, Westbrook Lakers, Westbrook Rockets, Lillard, Lowry, Gobert, Durant. Teams just can’t help themselves and they get greedy and all of those windows shut immediately after making that big move. 

I much prefer what the Celtics have done. Make a trade every year or so using 1 single FRP. If it costs more than that, it’s a stupid deal no matter what 

More bites at the apple. More smart frugal decisions. More growing our own young players

To add to your point: by having Kyrie as our second best and most important player our window can close any time for that season because of his injury history. So putting all our chips on the table for one year is a very risky bet und could backfire like it did for the Clippers the last few years. That‘s also true for this season by the way, let’s hope he stays healthy for the next weeks. Would I bet my own money on it? Never.

[SleepingHero]

They are doing everything to build as good a team as possible around Kyrie and Luka. Gafford and PJ are not old, but they are both on their second contract. Mavs also don't control any of their picks from 2027 to 2030. No idea how they plan to replace Kyrie in a couple of years when needed, because they will not have (good) picks to draft a star nor draft assets to trade for one. In two years, Kyrie and Maxi will be 34. The only really young players are Lively, Omax and Hardy. I don't see a star here. The rest are more or less what they are. If age slows down Kyrie, Mavs will have imho huge problems to build a contender.

I think Lively has shown enough his rookie year to warrant some leeway. Is he a future scoring factory? No. But his defensive impact is certainly all-star quality. He's flashed some incredible touch down low too. If he develops a 3pt shot like everyone on the Mavs have been alluding to all year then the sky really is the limit for him.

[SleepingHero]

Some fine sunshine pumping on this Saturday afternoon featuring a salty Kings fan:


SactownBabyGiraffe
@TimMaxwell22
A reminder that the Kings traded their 2023 first rounder to dump Richaun Holmes while gaining no assets in return.

The Mavs turned around and used Holmes’ salary and the same price of a first rounder to trade for Gafford, their best deadline acquisition.

[Scott41theMavs]

Some fine sunshine pumping on this Saturday afternoon featuring a salty Kings fan:


SactownBabyGiraffe
@TimMaxwell22
A reminder that the Kings traded their 2023 first rounder to dump Richaun Holmes while gaining no assets in return.

The Mavs turned around and used Holmes’ salary and the same price of a first rounder to trade for Gafford, their best deadline acquisition.

In Nico (and Lindsay) we trust.

[fifteenth]

For all the trade and FA talk folks:

If all your hopes and dreams come true, and the Mavs are able to get that third star who could create, score (and play D?), when exactly would he be able to shine? He better be able to hit the three and be willing to be patient while Luka and Kyrie get most of the dribbles.

Or am I missing what the "final big deal" folks want?

[youzigizag]

For all the trade and FA talk folks:

If all your hopes and dreams come true, and the Mavs are able to get that third star who could create, score (and play D?), when exactly would he be able to shine? He better be able to hit the three and be willing to be patient while Luka and Kyrie get most of the dribbles.

Or am I missing what the "final big deal" folks want?

I think the Mavs talent has increased to the point that finding low priced, average talent players with no major flaws isnt going to be a needle mover anymore.  The talent increase over the past year and half to two years has proven the old way of putting percentage players around Luka was wrong.   Dwight Powel is an example and a major major wound to analytics guys around here.  Its not all about numbers.

Im not saying go spend 30M on a player that we wont get the full 30M benefit out of because of Luka or Luka/Kyrie...but what other options do you have other than getting lucky in the draft?

I think Andrew Wiggins and Mikal Bridges fit the 3rd fiddle seat.   Both 2-ways.  Both expensive.   Bridges might not want to go back to a Phoenix roll now, though.   

I dont know if the Mavs will be reliant on a 3rd scorer though unless someone gets into foul trouble.  If Luka and Kyrie are collapsing the defense and we(now) have decent bball players on our team with no major flaws...maybe you dont need another large salary player.   I would hate to lose depth to a large salary...but if our scouting is better now...we can put quality depth around 3 large contracts, no?

[fifteenth]

I think the Mavs talent has increased to the point that finding low priced, average talent players with no major flaws isnt going to be a needle mover anymore.  The talent increase over the past year and half to two years has proven the old way of putting percentage players around Luka was wrong.   Dwight Powel is an example and a major major wound to analytics guys around here.  Its not all about numbers.

Im not saying go spend 30M on a player that we wont get the full 30M benefit out of because of Luka or Luka/Kyrie...but what other options do you have other than getting lucky in the draft?

I think Andrew Wiggins and Mikal Bridges fit the 3rd fiddle seat.   Both 2-ways.  Both expensive.   Bridges might not want to go back to a Phoenix roll now, though.   

I dont know if the Mavs will be reliant on a 3rd scorer though unless someone gets into foul trouble.  If Luka and Kyrie are collapsing the defense and we(now) have decent bball players on our team with no major flaws...maybe you dont need another large salary player.   I would hate to lose depth to a large salary...but if our scouting is better now...we can put quality depth around 3 large contracts, no?

This is why GMs make the big bucks. 

I want to keep Gaf, DLive, Maxi, PJW, DJJ, Exum and add a shooter (if Timmy gets traded). Y'all (trade thread peeps) know better than me, but I'm thinking that getting that third star means losing some of the folks I just listed, which I think most likely hurts us more than it helps us. Can we get a third start that improves on Exum but doesn't cost us Gaf, DLive, Maxi, PJW or DJJ? 

My guess is that letting the growth of PJW/Exum might be the best bet at a "3rd star" by committee for next season. 

I think my preference would be to roll another year with six I mentioned, but this management team seems to be much more bold than I am (see DFS trade).