Trade & FA 2023-24: Booker Likes NYK? Vogel Out? Suns Imploding?

[HoosierDaddyKid]

Wiggins on the court makes sense. But the reasons why he's never on the court is scarier than Butler or George. It's one thing to have a fragile body, but Wiggins' issues resemble Ben Simmons' lack of desire and mental fortitude. That is really hard to overcome.

If Wiggins was as good as George or Butler, maybe some teams could tolerate it. I'd be petrified though taking on that contract without a lot of 1sts attached to it. 

BUT if we're talking about Wiggins the player? Yeah he fits REAL good. He does just about everything we are wanting from a SF. He's big enough to play the 4 too. He can defend as good as any. His scoring has always been a strength.

It should caution you the Warriors were ready to cut him loose for whatever this trade deadline given all of that.

Can't fault Wiggins for his personal family issues. His Dad was real sick and almost left here, along with other family things. He had real life things going on which is why he missed a big chunk of the year. Hope things got better for him.

[loki]

I'm definitely considering Cam Johnson in a trade, especially if it's in a package for THJ and Green. 6'8" SF who would contribute to the size/length lineups and immediately be one of the best shooters on the team. The only concern (and it's a big one) is that he is injury prone and has missed a lot of games over the past seasons.

I think Cam makes a lot of sense. This team is missing a truly elite shooter to take advantage of all the looks Luka and Kyrie create. The fact that he's 6'8" and can hold his own defensively is a huge plus as well. Even though I think he would come off the bench I'd consider THJ+filler+25 1st. Not interested in including Green.

[KillerLeft]

Just throwing this out there, if the Heat fail in the playoffs, or heck even miss the playoffs, how much would you be willing to offer for a potential Jimmy Butler deal? He's due for a max extension that will pay him till he's 38.

But in terms of fit, isn't he the ideal 3 that we'd want next to Kyrie and Luka?

Hate to be this guy, because I love Butler as a player, but...same objection I'd have with DeRozan: just can't put a complete non-shooter out there next to Luka/Kyrie, imho. Shooting is already a struggle, as is.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

Hate to be this guy, because I love Butler as a player, but...same objection I'd have with DeRozan: just can't put a complete non-shooter out there next to Luka/Kyrie, imho. Shooting is already a struggle, as is.

With all due respect, how do you consider DeRozan a non shooter? Because he doesn't shoot 3's?  DeRozan is one of the best mid rangers in the game today. Plus he lives at the FT line. I don't consider that a negative. He can make them, it's just not a staple of his game. The same for Butler, they do everything else better.

[KillerLeft]

With all due respect, how do you consider DeRozan a non shooter? Because he doesn't shoot 3's?  

Yes, exactly. 

Lack of three point range (DeRozan shoots almost none, Butler not many more) by a player who will be OFF BALL would be prohibitive with Luka and Kyrie, both of whom depend on dribble penetration to make this offense work. 

There's no way the Mavs would want either player. DJJ is a better "shooter" for the Mavs' purposes than either, believe it or not. 

Now...if you're replacing Kyrie? One of them could be worked in that way, but I wouldn't be into that very much, either.

[The Jom]

Yes, exactly. 

Lack of three point range (DeRozan shoots almost none, Butler not many more) by a player who will be OFF BALL would be prohibitive with Luka and Kyrie, both of whom depend on dribble penetration to make this offense work. 

There's no way the Mavs would want either player. DJJ is a better "shooter" for the Mavs' purposes than either, believe it or not. 

Now...if you're replacing Kyrie? One of them could be worked in that way, but I wouldn't be into that very much, either.

You make good points. I get to that conclusion by an alternate route. DeRozan would come here and then no longer get FTs. Butler would come here and foul out.

[Jason Terry]

Nico has shown he’s big on the draft. For instance, he came in and found out we don’t make a big board on years we don’t have picks. Immediately changed and we get good value with Hardy.

Last summer we have one of the most impressive draft wizardry performances from Nico maximizing our assets

This year’s draft is projected to be one of the worst of all time. We already saw at the TDL how willing teams were to trade picks in this draft. If Nico is going to make the draft and scouting a bigger part of our organization, then i could see him seeing some sort of value in making a move

Let’s say it’s something like this:
Mavs get: pick in a spot of the draft where “Nico’s guy” is available (similar to Omax)

Other team(s) get: THJ, 58(draft and stash) and send us TPE or expirings that we waive

Luka, Kai, DJJ, PJ, Gafford
Exum, Hardy, Green, Maxi, Lively
AJ, Omax, draft pick, Powell, Morris

Really deep team that’s young. I like this better than gutting everything for another star. Save our picks for when Kyrie is another year or two older and we need a replacement. Caruso….Naz….Bruce…. I like those guys, but nothing out there that makes me want to mess with our current chemistry

[F Gump]

Nico has shown he’s big on the draft. For instance, he came in and found out we don’t make a big board on years we don’t have picks. Immediately changed and we get good value with Hardy.

Last summer we have one of the most impressive draft wizardry performances from Nico maximizing our assets

This year’s draft is projected to be one of the worst of all time. We already saw at the TDL how willing teams were to trade picks in this draft. If Nico is going to make the draft and scouting a bigger part of our organization, then i could see him seeing some sort of value in making a move

Let’s say it’s something like this:
Mavs get: pick in a spot of the draft where “Nico’s guy” is available (similar to Omax)

Other team(s) get: THJ, 58(draft and stash) and send us TPE or expirings that we waive

Luka, Kai, DJJ, PJ, Gafford
Exum, Hardy, Green, Maxi, Lively
AJ, Omax, draft pick, Powell, Morris

Really deep team that’s young. I like this better than gutting everything for another star. Save our picks for when Kyrie is another year or two older and we need a replacement. Caruso….Naz….Bruce…. I like those guys, but nothing out there that makes me want to mess with our current chemistry

In general I like all your comments, although I don't quite agree with them all. 

1 I like the swing they took on Hardy, and the way they tried. But I don't think he's going to be a keeper - looks to me like he's still the wild inefficient chucker he always was, two years away from being two years away from maybe being efficiently productive in the rotation. 

2 I like the moves in the last draft, but don't credit them to Nico personally (other than Nico now having someone who can negotiate deals effectively). I credit those ideas to Lindsey, a professional NBA GM who has done this stuff before, and made good deals. Although I do credit Nico for listening.

3 It wouldn't surprise me at all if 1st rounders are readily available, with the way this draft is being talked about. I've actually thought the same idea, that this might be a draft you could sneak into and get a guy you think is overlooked and you really like, so thanks for bringing up the idea.

4 I would love to wake up and hear the Mavs had pulled off your proposed deal (THJ + 58, for a 1st that lands someone Lindsey likes a lot, assuming there is one). 

5 But the part about taking players to waive, I jumped ship on that part. 

6 And the most practical target might be a 2nd rounder who is a 2-way to start with. But what if you can simply buy a 2nd rounder?

7 I do like the idea of trying to get another player to develop. Gotta keep actively looking and trying, even if some don't work out as well as others. So far imo on recent tries, Lively is an A, OMax a D, and Hardy an F, but keep at it. Learn to scout better and develop better, by trying.

8 If this team is really good in the playoffs, we shouldn't expect that raw players will get many minutes next season. The Mavs will be investing the bulk of their minutes in their best, as they are honing skills and chemistry for playoffs.

[LukaMVP]

although it's nice to hold a squad that is deep and young, we probably have to seek a move that can put us over the top like the one Celtics did last summer. hardy and OMax are decent prospects who deserve more than bench warming roles. I think it would be mutually beneficial for the team and players if they can be converted into a starting SF on our team, preferably a defensive elite.

[Mavs2021]

In general I like all your comments, although I don't quite agree with them all. 

1 I like the swing they took on Hardy, and the way they tried. But I don't think he's going to be a keeper - looks to me like he's still the wild inefficient chucker he always was, two years away from being two years away from maybe being efficiently productive in the rotation. 

2 I like the moves in the last draft, but don't credit them to Nico personally (other than Nico now having someone who can negotiate deals effectively). I credit those ideas to Lindsey, a professional NBA GM who has done this stuff before, and made good deals. Although I do credit Nico for listening.

3 It wouldn't surprise me at all if 1st rounders are readily available, with the way this draft is being talked about. I've actually thought the same idea, that this might be a draft you could sneak into and get a guy you think is overlooked and you really like, so thanks for bringing up the idea.

4 I would love to wake up and hear the Mavs had pulled off your proposed deal (THJ + 58, for a 1st that lands someone Lindsey likes a lot, assuming there is one). 

5 But the part about taking players to waive, I jumped ship on that part. 

6 And the most practical target might be a 2nd rounder who is a 2-way to start with. But what if you can simply buy a 2nd rounder?

7 I do like the idea of trying to get another player to develop. Gotta keep actively looking and trying, even if some don't work out as well as others. So far imo on recent tries, Lively is an A, OMax a D, and Hardy an F, but keep at it. Learn to scout better and develop better, by trying.

8 If this team is really good in the playoffs, we shouldn't expect that raw players will get many minutes next season. The Mavs will be investing the bulk of their minutes in their best, as they are honing skills and chemistry for playoffs.

I share a lot of those thoughts, especially about the 2024 draft, but Hardy an F? That is crazy.

First of all he was the 37th pick. That he will play 7-8 years in the NBA, which imho is a lock at this stage, already makes it a successful pick. An F would have to get released in the first two years of his rookie deal.  

Also Hardy and Omax are virtually the same age. Why is Omax not an F, cause his NBA development is clearly behind Hardy.

If you double his minutes, his production basically mirrors THJs. Better passer, better rebounder, better shooter. He has not progressed from his rookie season, but sometimes there are ebbs and flows. I would not be surprised at all, if the Mavs have internally marked up Hardy as THJ´s replacement for next season.

[F Gump]

I share a lot of those thoughts, especially about the 2024 draft, but Hardy an F? That is crazy.

First of all he was the 37th pick. That he will play 7-8 years in the NBA, which imho is a lock at this stage, already makes it a successful pick. An F would have to get released in the first two years of his rookie deal.  

Also Hardy and Omax are virtually the same age. Why is Omax not an F, cause his NBA development is clearly behind Hardy.

If you double his minutes, his production basically mirrors THJs. Better passer, better rebounder, better shooter. He has not progressed from his rookie season, but sometimes there are ebbs and flows. I would not be surprised at all, if the Mavs have internally marked up Hardy as THJ´s replacement for next season.

Your criticisms are fair in a lot of ways. But I still think my notes are rational.

I almost graded OMax as an I (incomplete) because I don't think he has had enough time to develop or show anything. But if he's still the same player in another year, he gets an F. The fact that Hardy is the same player as a year ago - or WORSE - is why I give him an F.

Your comparison of THJ and Hardy as the same type of player? I agree with that. But Hardy's definitely not as good as THJ, sadly. And when THJ is someone we'd want to replace because he's not good enough, then having a worse version of that is not the answer at all. 

Looking at per-26 numbers, Hardy is a WORSE shooter according to TS%, twice as many turnovers, fouls more, and much worse on defense. Rebounding is a wash. The only thing he does better is assists. And overall he's getting worse, not better. 

The eye test shows me a player who still doesn't get it at all. He plays out of control, and is focused almost solely on getting up shots, at just about any cost. 

I think he has to make a HUGE leap next year, to get another contract here at that point. I know fans want him to be a feel-good story of the great player the Mavs found, but the sad truth is that so far he's just a spare. At some point the Mavs will just pull the plug and look elsewhere, if he keeps going nowhere.

[Winter]

I think an "I" for Omax is fine.

I continue to think his time in G League is strictly strategic from the Front Office perspective. He was never going to get adequate minutes with Jones, Hardy, Exum, and Green in front of him. Minutes were a problem for the rotation. Those players were also deserving early this year and Kidd knew almost nothing about Exum at that point. It only made sense to let Omax work out the kinks in G League - where his numbers are very good. I doubt the front office is unhappy with what they have.

In G League, he's getting 33 MPG, 42% from 3-point land, 10 RPG, and shooting an overall 51% from the field. Those aren't numbers of someone who his incapable of playing in the NBA.

My guess is that the Jones/Hardy/Hardaway/Kleber/Green situation gets straightened out in the summer, and Omax is penciled in at the beginning of training camp nest season.

[omahen]

As I said in one of previous posts, Mavs might look to upgrade either the point of attack defender spot or the big wing spot. The need of course depends on how well they perform in the playoffs. Mavs need to cash in on the Kyrie window, which is probably around two years, before it becomes very likely that age will start impacting his performances. It is also obvious Mavs are all-in for this period and the moves to expect will be to maximize this window, not build for years later.

It is also obvious that Mavs prefer guys who can defend (Exum, DJJ, Green) to guys that can shoot for the point of attack defender position. Trading THJ is not really about replacing THJ. It is about the starter on the point of attack defender position, pushing current starter down the rotation (if he is willing to accept the role and money). THJ role is reduced to some 15 minutes when most of the guys are healthy. This is a role that can be either taken by Hardy or by some vet min player. If Hardy is not capable of taking the role, it is probably best to find someone willing to give up a second rounder for him and move on. Offense only guys are not valued highly around the league currently (unless they are true stars). As an example - Oubre averaged over 20 ppg last season but didn't get more than vet min this one. Spending THJ salary for that role is a waste of cap space - dead money that could be used elsewhere on the roster. You can probably easily get a guy like McDermott for vet min next season, if you feel like moving on from Hardy.

A guy who can both shoot and defend would be ideal, but those guys are stars. Mavs don't have assets to trade for a star, unless it is an aging star that will probably be overpaid for his age and decline that will eventually come. Our choice is basically role players that have their limitations or overpaid good players.

My opinion on some names that were mentioned.

Jerami Grant. Always liked him and he has proven in the past he can be excellent defender: Much better shooter than PJ. Of course we are just guessing what he wants in his career and you only go after him if he wants to take the PJ role. You are not bringing him in for a role he has in Portland. We can't know, but Mavs should know what he wants. Grant would be a PJ replacement. If you go after him, he is a starter and he will cost assets. I am affraid PJ wouldn't be satisfied if he would be reduced to a bench role. I think it would take a horrible playoff performance for Mavs to consider replacing PJ.

Cam Johnson. Not sure why he gets mentioned so often. BKN just signed him to an extension and obviously wants to have him. Heck, they demanded 2 FRP for a wing like DFS, so no idea why we would dream about younger and better player. It seems like they want to keep this core of wings as a selling point to any star that becomes available. One could see this team become very competitive if they can add a star guard. Certain someone seems to want out of Cleveland, for example.

I don't think any low minute guy (despite the teoretical potential) would be considered to fill the starter point of attack defender role. If Mavs make a move, it will be for a proven player imho.

[loki]

My opinion on some names that were mentioned.

Jerami Grant. Always liked him and he has proven in the past he can be excellent defender: Much better shooter than PJ. Of course we are just guessing what he wants in his career and you only go after him if he wants to take the PJ role. You are not bringing him in for a role he has in Portland. We can't know, but Mavs should know what he wants. Grant would be a PJ replacement. If you go after him, he is a starter and he will cost assets. I am affraid PJ wouldn't be satisfied if he would be reduced to a bench role. I think it would take a horrible playoff performance for Mavs to consider replacing PJ.

Cam Johnson. Not sure why he gets mentioned so often. BKN just signed him to an extension and obviously wants to have him. Heck, they demanded 2 FRP for a wing like DFS, so no idea why we would dream about younger and better player. It seems like they want to keep this core of wings as a selling point to any star that becomes available. One could see this team become very competitive if they can add a star guard. Certain someone seems to want out of Cleveland, for example.

I think the ship has sailed on Grant. Even if PJ has a rough postseason I would pencil him in as the starting PF next year. Let's see what an entire offseason in the gym shooting corner 3's can do.

Cam is interesting because it does make some sense for Brooklyn to deal him if they want to go the cap space route in 2025. Many of their fans are open to a trade and don't view him as their future PF. They may be more likely to hang on to him or include him in a trade for a star, but moving off his contract wouldn't shock me either.

The 2 FRP for DFS thing was just posturing. They can probably get the same return for him they got for O'Neale - a basket of 2nds.

[omahen]

I think the ship has sailed on Grant. Even if PJ has a rough postseason I would pencil him in as the starting PF next year. Let's see what an entire offseason in the gym shooting corner 3's can do.

Cam is interesting because it does make some sense for Brooklyn to deal him if they want to go the cap space route in 2025. Many of their fans are open to a trade and don't view him as their future PF. They may be more likely to hang on to him or include him in a trade for a star, but moving off his contract wouldn't shock me either.

The 2 FRP for DFS thing was just posturing. They can probably get the same return for him they got for O'Neale - a basket of 2nds.

Of course DFS is not worth 2 FRP and no one was willing to pay that. But BKN was also not willing to take a basket of 2nds. Same goes for Cam. They might consider trading him only if they get a very, very, very good offer.

[Branduil]

Just looking at the current starting lineup (and bench), I think what the Mavs should be looking for as the "final piece" is ideally in the mold of someone like a prime Klay Thompson. A strong perimeter defender and movement shooter (who doesn't need high usage to score) could take this offense from one of the best in the league to one of the best in basketball history, without sacrificing defense (which is why THJ doesn't work there, in addition to not being as reliable a shooter as we'd prefer).

I don't really see any obvious Klay Thompsons available, so the big question is how you get that player. Through the draft? Or is there a young player somewhere who might have the potential to take that step?

[Mavs32]

I think this summer is where you let good things come to you instead of trying to force things.  Caruso, Grant and definitely PG feel like a team really going for it in a dangerous way because of what they would cost.

I agree that PG is the template of player you are looking for but obviously that is a star player that doesn't come cheap.

To get that kind of player you either have to trade the farm, draft one, get one as a reclimation project (ie Kyrie), find a diamond in the rough and polish it, or take advantage of another teams salary situation to grab a good young player they can't afford to keep.

The last two are the best way imo because it you don't have tank or give up your future.

So I come back to New Orleans.  they have so many players and tons of draft picks.  they are top heavy with salary and have young guys that need to get paid.  I'm specifically looking at Trey Murphy and Naji Marshall.  Naji is more of a finished product but he would be an upgrade over THJ even if he doesn't move DJJ to the bench.

Murphy on the other hand moves DJJ to the bench and is still young enough to get a lot better.  he is already one of the better shooters in the league.  He's long and a solid defender.  if he improves his ball handling he could be a really good player.

New Orleans already signed Herb Jones (who i like even more than Murphy) so I assume they keep him but their draft pick last year Hawkins is a stud and fits right into Murphy's role. So if they don't trade Ingram or CJ i think by middle of next year they will be looking to move Murphy for salary purposes.

Another guy i am interested in is Grimes in Detroit.  i think he is already what we wanted Josh Green to be.

But this summer i think the mavs can focus on developing young guys (maybe see what you can grab in the draft) and even take the THJ contract into the season with an eye on the trade deadline.  As is, this is a very good team that should be even better next year even without any additions.

[mvossman]

As I said in one of previous posts, Mavs might look to upgrade either the point of attack defender spot or the big wing spot. The need of course depends on how well they perform in the playoffs. Mavs need to cash in on the Kyrie window, which is probably around two years, before it becomes very likely that age will start impacting his performances. It is also obvious Mavs are all-in for this period and the moves to expect will be to maximize this window, not build for years later.

It is also obvious that Mavs prefer guys who can defend (Exum, DJJ, Green) to guys that can shoot for the point of attack defender position. Trading THJ is not really about replacing THJ. It is about the starter on the point of attack defender position, pushing current starter down the rotation (if he is willing to accept the role and money). THJ role is reduced to some 15 minutes when most of the guys are healthy. This is a role that can be either taken by Hardy or by some vet min player. If Hardy is not capable of taking the role, it is probably best to find someone willing to give up a second rounder for him and move on. Offense only guys are not valued highly around the league currently (unless they are true stars). As an example - Oubre averaged over 20 ppg last season but didn't get more than vet min this one. Spending THJ salary for that role is a waste of cap space - dead money that could be used elsewhere on the roster. You can probably easily get a guy like McDermott for vet min next season, if you feel like moving on from Hardy.

A guy who can both shoot and defend would be ideal, but those guys are stars. Mavs don't have assets to trade for a star, unless it is an aging star that will probably be overpaid for his age and decline that will eventually come. Our choice is basically role players that have their limitations or overpaid good players.

My opinion on some names that were mentioned.

Jerami Grant. Always liked him and he has proven in the past he can be excellent defender: Much better shooter than PJ. Of course we are just guessing what he wants in his career and you only go after him if he wants to take the PJ role. You are not bringing him in for a role he has in Portland. We can't know, but Mavs should know what he wants. Grant would be a PJ replacement. If you go after him, he is a starter and he will cost assets. I am affraid PJ wouldn't be satisfied if he would be reduced to a bench role. I think it would take a horrible playoff performance for Mavs to consider replacing PJ.

Cam Johnson. Not sure why he gets mentioned so often. BKN just signed him to an extension and obviously wants to have him. Heck, they demanded 2 FRP for a wing like DFS, so no idea why we would dream about younger and better player. It seems like they want to keep this core of wings as a selling point to any star that becomes available. One could see this team become very competitive if they can add a star guard. Certain someone seems to want out of Cleveland, for example.

I don't think any low minute guy (despite the teoretical potential) would be considered to fill the starter point of attack defender role. If Mavs make a move, it will be for a proven player imho.

Im not sure what evidence there is that the Mavs are all in for Kyrie two year window?  They just drafted two players and their most recent big acquisitions are both 25.  They seem more long term focused than short term to me.

Guys who can both shoot and defend are not stars.  Guys that can create and defend are stars.  

I agree with your assessment that it is very unlikely they are going to try to replace PJ.  That leaves POA defender as the place to upgrade.  The most obvious choice given fit and availability is Caruso, but there may be others.

[Jakeospikez]

Hardy has shown plenty of flashes late in the season. I'm not sure what was going on with him in the first part of the season but he was bricking everything. Something happened maybe adding strength in the offseason or something because there was a big decline early on. His shot mechanics are very consistent and clean tho. He started hitting his shots and the shots always looked pretty. Ball handling WAY improved over what it was last year. Don't care about the stats, use your eyes. Passing improving as well. He's thrown many lobs for his limited minutes already when we're all enamored when THJ managed to throw a single one. To me he's made a giant leap in ball handling, which was his biggest weakness. He's getting separation to create his own midrange shots. He's passing better. He needs more time and is on the right track. He's always been a useful catch & shoot player. Looking ahead to next season he's already ready to take over for THJ. Luka/Kyrie/Exum/Hardy is enough for the ball handlers. If THJ could somehow be moved for a better version of DJJ it'd be perfect. If they manage to keep DJJ that's good too.

[michaeltex]

DAL gave Hardy the keys during the summer league and he failed to impress. Poor shooting percentage, poor decision making, although showing lots of athleticism. Never seemed to rise above that early in the season, even when given a somewhat regular b/u role, so he's been buried on the bench. Sure, he shows some flashes, but he still seems like the game hasn't quite slowed down for him yet. He was supposed to grow into the 3rd ball handler spot, but obviouisly the coaches don't have enough confidence to trust him in that role. Exum had the opening and he's claimed it very well.

IMO, Hardy, along with Powell and THJ are all tradeable this summer. Maybe Green, depending on his contribution in the playoffs.