Trade & FA 2023-24: Booker Likes NYK? Vogel Out? Suns Imploding?

[KillerLeft]

I think I am the only one here that prefers to just play out this season or make a small trade(Like Jalen Mcdaniels or something like that). Why is that you ask? Right now the Mavs assets are a 2027 1st round pick and our young players. After this season ends we'll(most likely) have:
- 25, 27 and 31 1st round picks to trade
- THJ 16 mil and Holmes 12 mil expiring contracts

Also, Lively will have 1 season under his belt, so will Omax and Hardy will have 2. I know you guys are getting low(er) on Hardy, but I still think he deserves this season and one more season(I've got a feeling that the Mavs were forcing Hardy this offseason to become something that he isn't - a playmaker, maybe a full offseason on focusing at what he does best - scoring would bring the old Hardy back).

If we can get a defensive gamechanger ala OG Anunoby then great, make the deal, but I wouldn't waste our assets on some mediocre upgrade ala Collins,...

You aren't the only one, but there are few of us, that's for sure.

[KillerLeft]

I was listening to a national podcast with a bit of an analytical bend over the weekend.  They were designing trades to help LAL and THJ's name came up (Hield-lite).  Dallas would get Rui and a 2nd.  I don't dare mention that one here as I can anticipate the discussion.  But, your 'must defend' stance made me think of Vanderbilt.  Most recognize him as a plus defender who is limited offensively.  His return has pretty well shut down Wood, so we know what the Lakers think of the value those two bring.  Is he good enough for the standard you are arguing for?

I think I might consider that THJ for Hachimura and a 2nd, as long as Hachimura was willing to come off of the bench. I'd need to look at his contract first. 

Vanderbilt...I love him, but just don't know if he's a fit now that Lively is in place. I mean, he fits into the rotation SOMEWHERE, for sure, but I'm just not sure there's a big enough role for him. He might be wasted here. Then again, maybe not. 

Both names are more intriguing than John Collins, imho. Maybe it's residual Porzingis trama, but with Lively in place, I'm just not interested in any big who expects/needs to be featured. Tell me Lively can shoot 3's at a high volume and is cool with playing like Brook Lopez (maybe in the future, in other words) and I might change my tune.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I was so pro Vanderbilt until I saw his usage (correctly) dwindle in the playoffs. It's so easy to get enamored with some of these folks who have clearcut nba skillsets who still end up losing minutes because the playoffs are so cut throat. Worried we may have one in the rotation already with DJJ but time will tell.

Slightly related, I'm VERY curious to see how the TWolves playoff rotation shakes out. They're the darlings now but playoff defenses are going to be more than willing to leave Jaden McDaniels and Kyle Anderson wiiiiiiiide open and make those two win games. Plus we all know Rudy's playoff track record. Just wild how different the regular season and playoffs are.

[Mavs2021]

Omax has played 94 minutes o far. Jarace Walker has played 41. Anyone feel we lost a game this season, cause of Omax´s minutes? Best thing about Kidd.

[chaparral]

Enjoying the trade convo today on what the Mavs need. Just wondering what the board thinks about Saddiq Bay. He is shooting .400 from 3's this season and bring in 6 rebounds. Don't know if he's a good defender or not? Is he in the Hawks long term plans, since they did not extend him this off-season.

[mvossman]

I think I am the only one here that prefers to just play out this season or make a small trade(Like Jalen Mcdaniels or something like that). Why is that you ask? Right now the Mavs assets are a 2027 1st round pick and our young players. After this season ends we'll(most likely) have:
- 25, 27 and 31 1st round picks to trade
- THJ 16 mil and Holmes 12 mil expiring contracts

Also, Lively will have 1 season under his belt, so will Omax and Hardy will have 2. I know you guys are getting low(er) on Hardy, but I still think he deserves this season and one more season(I've got a feeling that the Mavs were forcing Hardy this offseason to become something that he isn't - a playmaker, maybe a full offseason on focusing at what he does best - scoring would bring the old Hardy back).

If we can get a defensive gamechanger ala OG Anunoby then great, make the deal, but I wouldn't waste our assets on some mediocre upgrade ala Collins,...

There have been a couple of us on this boat for quite a while.

[mvossman]

Enjoying the trade convo today on what the Mavs need.  Just wondering what the board thinks about Saddiq Bay.  He is shooting .400 from 3's this season and bring in 6 rebounds.  Don't know if he's a good defender or not?  Is he in the Hawks long term plans, since they did not extend him this off-season.

He is not a plus defender, so another offense only guy.  Missing out on Bane and Maxey was a big hit, but I'm not losing sleep over not drafting Bay.

[ItsGoTime]

A name not really seen brought up much but seems like a VERY Mavs get in the offseason. What about Tobias Harris? He’s gonna get a huge paycut this offseason. Will it go down far enough for us to be bidders?

[omahen]

I think Lively will be the third best player, so we are really talking about #4 here.  No matter what you call it, I think they have to help with D (the opportunity for greatest improvement).  But, as Killer alludes, they have to also be able to hit a 3 on at least mediocre volume (not necessarily THJ volume though).   I do agree other skills like rebounding and attacking close-outs and moving the ball without too many TO's are also important (all of which Collins does).  

I was listening to a national podcast with a bit of an analytical bend over the weekend.  They were designing trades to help LAL and THJ's name came up (Hield-lite).  Dallas would get Rui and a 2nd.  I don't dare mention that one here as I can anticipate the discussion.  But, your 'must defend' stance made me think of Vanderbilt.  Most recognize him as a plus defender who is limited offensively.  His return has pretty well shut down Wood, so we know what the Lakers think of the value those two bring.  Is he good enough for the standard you are arguing for?

In my opinion, third best guy (on offense) is someone who generates some of the offense on his own. Denver has MPj, Boston had a couple of guys last season that could qualify (White, Smart), Miami has Herro, Lakers have Reaves/Russell,..

I think Mavs will need that guy and I think Lively is far away from being that. So far he is still extremely raw and not really capable of using his size against smaller guys. He surprised most (all?) of us by his improvement this season, but I have a really hard time imagining such a huge advancement by next season. As he is, it is likely he will be played off the floor in playoffs, I am affraid.

So far, THJ has been that guy for Mavs and it is not even close. His problem is his weak defense, as we basically all agree. Not because he is a bad individual defender, but because you can't play THJ next to Luka and Kyrie and hope for any kind of decent defense. So, for me the only logical way is to replace THJ offense by similar offensive guy who is a much better defender. As Mavs have Luka and Kyrie, that third scorer needs to also be a good defender.

---

Enjoying the trade convo today on what the Mavs need.  Just wondering what the board thinks about Saddiq Bay.  He is shooting .400 from 3's this season and bring in 6 rebounds.  Don't know if he's a good defender or not?  Is he in the Hawks long term plans, since they did not extend him this off-season.

I didn't see them play, but I check Hawks forum here and there. The consensus opinion is, that Bey is worse on defense than Trae

[omahen]

I was listening to a national podcast with a bit of an analytical bend over the weekend.  They were designing trades to help LAL and THJ's name came up (Hield-lite).  Dallas would get Rui and a 2nd.  I don't dare mention that one here as I can anticipate the discussion.  But, your 'must defend' stance made me think of Vanderbilt.  Most recognize him as a plus defender who is limited offensively.  His return has pretty well shut down Wood, so we know what the Lakers think of the value those two bring.  Is he good enough for the standard you are arguing for?

I always liked Vando as good defender and high energy guy. Great bench guy (or fifth starter) if you can get him for cheap. But, he is not the player that would lift Mavs into contention.

I am not impressed by the original trade idea. THJ is a much better player than Hachimura and on a better contract. I would consider Hachimura+Vando for THJ. But, it would suddenly create a bit of a logjam on the PF position.

[mvossman]

In my opinion, third best guy (on offense) is someone who generates some of the offense on his own. Denver has MPj, Boston had a couple of guys last season that could qualify (White, Smart), Miami has Herro, Lakers have Reaves/Russell,..

I think Mavs will need that guy and I think Lively is far away from being that. So far he is still extremely raw and not really capable of using his size against smaller guys. He surprised most (all?) of us by his improvement this season, but I have a really hard time imagining such a huge advancement by next season. As he is, it is likely he will be played off the floor in playoffs, I am affraid.

So far, THJ has been that guy for Mavs and it is not even close. His problem is his weak defense, as we basically all agree. Not because he is a bad individual defender, but because you can't play THJ next to Luka and Kyrie and hope for any kind of decent defense. So, for me the only logical way is to replace THJ offense by similar offensive guy who is a much better defender. As Mavs have Luka and Kyrie, that third scorer needs to also be a good defender.

Timmy is not a good fit defensively with Luka and Kyrie, but you don't really have to play him when both are on the court.  With them being staggered, there are nearly 30 minutes a game when one is off the court, and obviously more when one is injured.

I do agree though that what this team desperately needs is a true two way player.  There not a single player on this roster that can create some offense while being better than average on defense.  I don't think you can contend without a guy like that.  In my mind, all effort should be in getting that guy.  Doing anything to make this team a little better this season that has any chance of hampering getting that guy is not worth it.  As someone mentioned above, we will be in the best position in a long time to acquire that player this coming offseason with 3 first, expiring contracts and some young players.  

Iztok had that article out recently that showed the only way this team with Luka and Kyrie can play decent to good defense is with three "defenders" on the court.  Having a true two way player will make that so much easier to accomplish.

[SleepingHero]

From Shams latest article (mostly about the Bulls which I put in the other thread):

PJ Tucker:
Forward P.J. Tucker has expressed frustration about his current situation with the team, and both sides are discussing ways to resolve a role for him there or elsewhere, according to league sources.

The 13-year NBA veteran has been a key, big-minute contributor across the last 12 years — including starting three games and playing over 22 minutes for the 76ers a night prior to his trade with James Harden to the Clippers — but the 2021 NBA champion has been a DNP-CD in the last five games and has not played since Nov. 27 as coach Tyronn Lue moved rookie Kobe Brown into the rotation to infuse youth and athleticism. Tucker has been professional by helping Brown and his younger teammates while navigating his new reality with the Clippers.

Multiple contending teams are monitoring the Tucker situation in LA. For the season, Tucker, 38, has averaged 1.3 points and 2.9 rebounds. He is earning $11 million this season and has a player option worth $11.5 million for the 2024-25 season.

[omahen]

Atlanta, Sacramento and Indy are teams to watch for Siakam (or OG, but more likely Siakam), if (when) Toronto decides to sell according to Shams.

My comment. All three teams can be put in similar category as Mavs. Good that could become great with a guy like Siakam. If I have a look at their individual potential assets and contracts:
- Atlanta. If I understand their draft commitments correctly, Atlanta only has one FRP available to trade (2029 or 2030). They don't have any significant expiring salary. Hunter would likely be the main salary going out. They have a couple of decent young players such as Griffin (not playing much this season), jalen Johnson (has a great season so far) and this years FRP Bufkin. Siakam would likely share the number two status with Murray on the team.
- Indiana. They have all their picks available. Siakam would be a clear number two on the team. Expiring Buddy would be the main salary and they have a selection of decent young players.
- Sacramento. Looks like closest to contending of the three. If I understand their draft commitments correctly, they have 2028 and 2030 picks available to trade. Barnes with two more years on his deal would be the likely main salary going out, the rest being a combination of Huerter (also 2 more years), Mitchel and Lyles. No really attractive young players, assuming Murray is off the table.

Based on this, Indy is by far in prime position to outbid anyone for Siakam, if they want to. I think Dallas can prepare comparable offers to Atlanta or Sacramento and it would basically came down to which players Toronto prefers. So the main task is to convince Siakam he doesn't want to be in Indiana

https://theathletic.com/5126208/2023/12/...ngs-bulls/

[Mapka]

Atlanta, Sacramento and Indy are teams to watch for Siakam (or OG, but more likely Siakam), if (when) Toronto decides to sell according to Shams.

My comment. All three teams can be put in similar category as Mavs. Good that could become great with a guy like Siakam. If I have a look at their individual potential assets and contracts:
- Atlanta. If I understand their draft commitments correctly, Atlanta only has one FRP available to trade (2029 or 2030). They don't have any significant expiring salary. Hunter would likely be the main salary going out. They have a couple of decent young players such as Griffin (not playing much this season), jalen Johnson (has a great season so far) and this years FRP Bufkin. Siakam would likely share the number two status with Murray on the team.
- Indiana. They have all their picks available. Siakam would be a clear number two on the team. Expiring Buddy would be the main salary and they have a selection of decent young players.
- Sacramento. Looks like closest to contending of the three. If I understand their draft commitments correctly, they have 2028 and 2030 picks available to trade. Barnes with two more years on his deal would be the likely main salary going out, the rest being a combination of Huerter (also 2 more years), Mitchel and Lyles. No really attractive young players, assuming Murray is off the table.

Based on this, Indy is by far in prime position to outbid anyone for Siakam, if they want to. I think Dallas can prepare comparable offers to Atlanta or Sacramento and it would basically came down to which players Toronto prefers. So the main task is to convince Siakam he doesn't want to be in Indiana

https://theathletic.com/5126208/2023/12/...ngs-bulls/

The thing is Siakam wants the Supermax.
And he might get it, if OG jumps first.

[ThisIStheYear]

True two way player: Dante Exum. The rest of the season is going to live or die on Kyrie’s health and Exum’s continued growth into a Swiss Army knife role. Mavs are difficult to match up against when he’s on the floor.I would consider Collins if the price is low.His 3 point shot is back and he’s learned how to defend. He could be a fifth starter. Mavs already have a big 3, and Exum is a good #4. They’re in excellent shape. You could do a lot worse than Grant, Collins, and DJj splitting minutes up front.

[MFFL]

So the main task is to convince Siakam he doesn't want to be in Indiana

Isn't that already the case? I can't imagine ANY player picking Indiana over other locations. He probably wants a prime location AND a max salary. And he might get it.

[Jason Terry]

I’m coming around to Collins or another player instead of standing pat or selling

Reason 1: The West is wide open. Denver doesn’t look as hungry or dominant. The top teams (MIN, OKC) are both young and haven’t been through the grind of the playoffs. The pretender contenders (Suns, Fakers, Clippers, Warriors) all look old and washed.

Reason 2: Lively. The way he’s playing is beyond our wildest expectations for this point in the season. He’s ready, so we’re (almost) ready right now.

[Jason Terry]

Mavs get: Collins

Magic get: THJ

Jazz get: Gary Harris, Holmes, Hardy, two Magic 2nds, Mavs protected pick swap

Spend some assets while still keeping enough to go big game hunting down the road

[KillerLeft]

I’m coming around to Collins or another player instead of standing pat or selling

Reason 1: The West is wide open. Denver doesn’t look as hungry or dominant. The top teams (MIN, OKC) are both young and haven’t been through the grind of the playoffs. The pretender contenders (Suns, Fakers, Clippers, Warriors) all look old and washed.

Reason 2: Lively. The way he’s playing is beyond our wildest expectations for this point in the season. He’s ready, so we’re (almost) ready right now.

Lively is the main reason I’d be scared of such a deal. Right now, everyone is making room for the 1-5 pick and roll and Lively is feasting. I’m just not sure his surprising rookie year will continue on this course if he suddenly has to learn how to play off of a featured big. And that’s why you trade for someone like Collins, to feature him. It would be Christian Wood all over again, in some ways.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I would consider Collins if the price is low.His 3 point shot is back and he’s learned how to defend. He could be a fifth starter. Mavs already have a big 3, and Exum is a good #4. They’re in excellent shape. You could do a lot worse than Grant, Collins, and DJj splitting minutes up front.

I'm not quite ready to anoint Exum as a starter when everyone is healthy and while I like his drive and drive-n-dish game, he needs to be better from 3 to be a true 2-way player.  But, I think he fits well here in the top 7/8 and is needed.  I thought from the beginning he made more sense getting minutes than THJ, Hardy or Seth (though it is difficult sitting THJ given the money he makes and the need to keep his value high).  Thank you Dennis Lindsay.

I'd probably slot Collins as fourth (note, both he and THJ were unexpected scratches last night...illness for Collins and back spasms for THJ).  So, you have two ball handlers in Luka and Kyrie and a C/PF combo in Lively/Collins.  Any of Grant, Green, DJJ and Exum could be the fifth starter with the other three filling diverse bench roles.  Another thing I like about Collins is he would make Maxi more valuable.  Maxi/GWill or Maxi/DJJ is too small.  But, Maxi/Collins works from a size/rebounding standpoint and Collins can be the roll-man or the outside shooter in such lineups.  If he were a better defender, he'd be a really good pickup for this team.  Of course, if he were, he'd be untouchable.  

This is more for Killer/Omahen, but I'm not buying the 'it didn't work in Atlanta' argument.  Nothing works in Atlanta.  Trae Young makes players worse while everyone who comes here gets a Luka-bump.  This board tends to poo-poo everyone we trade for or sign until we see them play here.  Then the tune changes.  I don't think Capela is the vertical threat or paint deterrent that Lively is (or will be) and I don't think Atlanta has defenders who compare well to the secondary guys mentioned above.  In a world where the reasonably available options for this spot have huge holes in their games, Collins fits well with a diverse skill set and with THJ gone there are more than enough shots to satisfy Collins with some left over for others.