Trade & FA 2023-24: OKC The Favorite For Nic Claxton Should He Leave BRK

[Chicagojk]

The big question for me is did the Mavs end up spending low enough this season to keep  their exceptions so they can resign DJJ?  He’s emerged and is at least as good as DFS.  He’s a must keep now.

He has played really well recently.   Best case is he provides some stability and allows us to take a wait and see approach and let our youngster develop on a normal path.   What if he is more though?   He is still only 26.   

We will see how this turns out but the Jones and Exum minimum salaries look like expert GMing.    Go back to the previous gambles (some that I thought was warranted at the time):  Frankie Smokes, Moses Brown, Willie Caulie Stein, Wes Iwundo, Theo Pinson, Sterling Brown, Marquisse Chriss, Facu, Kemba Walker  etc.  Just a stark difference on that Jones and Exum could provide vs those other names.

[KillerLeft]

Ya, when I say 48 mins of great C play, I don’t literally mean a full 48 minutes every game for all games. I think we have a good smallball C option in GWill who can keep the 5 out dream alive. I’ve been also saying it lately, Isaiah Stewart has come on strong to begin this season shooting the 3, HE, I think, would be a great Maxi upgrade if after his % normalizes he can stay up there at or above league average. Eventually I think Lively will get to the point where he gets the green light to shoot 3’s as well as it seems that’s a part of his development.

I just really think that our defensive path forward with both Luka and Kyrie on the team is to choose rim protection and rebounding over perimeter defense. Not saying to give up on perimeter defense, just that when 2 of your 3-4 perimeter guys on the court are Luka and Kyrie, you can’t possibly think that having 1 guy out there is going to make that much of a difference.

We all see clearly how well this team works with Lively out there, I’d just like that to be the case for longer than Lively’s minutes (he’s averaging 24.3 mpg so there is a lot of time without him). 

I put out a list of guys I’d like to see as varying degrees of upgrade on Discord a couple days ago. At that time I hadn’t thought about Poeltl. I’m in between your thoughts and Dan’s on him. He is certainly the type of solid upgrade we could use for much of his proven game, but I don’t know enough about him to know if he is good for our offense. I do suppose if he is a hard worker, Luka and Kyrie can make the most out of effort. 

That list was (in no order):
Gafford
Hartenstein 
Allen
Capela
Stewart
Zubac

There are others I’m sure that I don’t have on that list too (especially some of these young up and comers), Poeltl probably should be there IMO.

I don’t have any huge issue with your logic, even the parts I’m not sure I agree with fully have validity to them. 

I think where I get off the bus is when we start targeting players already getting paid to be the exact animal Lively is trying to become. I just feel the list of targets, at this point, should be limited to people who can be brought in to play BEHIND Lively and who have financial situations that make sense for the team.

[mvossman]

I don’t understand why letting Lively develop more off the bench is such a bad thing? IF he proves to be a better player than Claxton, isn’t that an amazing problem to have?

Its a misallocation of resources.  You are spending multiple firsts on two players that can give you 30 minutes a night but can't be on the court together.  The same goes for Poeltl or any other starting center than will cost significant assets/cap.  This strategy was debated in offseason before we knew what we had in Lively.  I'm surprised folks still want to go this route knowing we already have a legit starting center on the roster.

[ItsGoTime]

I don’t have any huge issue with your logic, even the parts I’m not sure I agree with fully have validity to them. 

I think where I get off the bus is when we start targeting players already getting paid to be the exact animal Lively is trying to become. I just feel the list of targets, at this point, should be limited to people who can be brought in to play BEHIND Lively and who have financial situations that make sense for the team.

Ya, I’m just trying to think logically and then form an opinion (which can’t be fully solidified unless the thought becomes reality anyway). 

I’m not as sold on Lively HAVING to play as a starter to develop into what he will become, That is why my list had varying degrees of upgrade. If we bring in an Allen type sure-fire starter, once Lively gets to his level (and/or beyond), we can then move on from Allen as an ASSET, getting pieces that will hopefully fit the team going forward. If Lively doesn’t get to that level (Kessler had an amazing rookie season and has fallen to start the season), he can still be an amazing backup.

[KillerLeft]

Its a misallocation of resources.  You are spending multiple firsts on two players that can give you 30 minutes a night but can't be on the court together.  The same goes for Poeltl or any other starting center than will cost significant assets/cap.  This strategy was debated in offseason before we knew what we had in Lively.  I'm surprised folks still want to go this route knowing we already have a legit starting center on the roster.

Not only a legit starting center, but one who is likely to become more legit on a daily/weekly basis for the next 2-3 years, if given the chance. I have no desire at all to mess with that. I’m kind of worried that he’ll read the ideas to bring another center in around here and lose confidence - forget about what bringing in an actual competing, potential replacement might do (kidding, but it illustrates the risk with hyperbole, imo).

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

It's too early in the season to give up assets in a trade.  We need to give it a couple more months to know exactly what we have.  Kleber deserves a couple of months to see if he can get back to who he was in the 2022 playoffs.  If he can, then our roster looks fairly complete.  If he can't then we can find a competent backup big who's much less expensive than Poeltl.  

I also don't understand why everyone is so down on Josh Green thus far.  I think he's played like he did last season.  Low-usage but efficient on offense.  Makes the occasional great pass and the occasional dumb turnover.  Continues to work hard on defense.  It's great that DJJ and Exum have exceeded expectations.  There will be injuries and rest days and so there will be some minutes for everyone.  KIdd still trusts him enough to play him 25 mpg this season.  Kidd has been very creative with lineups thus far this season depending on the opponent.  Grant Williams has been great this season but only played 16 minutes last night.

Green still has a place here.

I want to be clear that I’m not low on Green necessarily despite the rough past 2 games, I’m simply higher on Exum and DJJ than I expected to be and I think it changes the equation slightly when it comes to roster moves/construction is all. I was 100% against trading green this year but now I’m listening is all.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I am with you. Poetl has his fans here, but I’ve never been one of them. I totally get that he helps a ton with rebounding, but…is he even a pick and roll guy? THAT’s why Lively has gotten this chance and been so effective. I’m not so sure the Mavs would even be interested in Poetl. 

I’m also seeing a big disconnect between groups of us (fans). I started to make this point in a reply to IGT yesterday, but got distracted before finishing. There seems to be a group who thinks “48 minutes of center play” is the missing piece here. There are lots of different ways to look at that statement, but I’m not sure 48 minutes of Lively/Poetl (that you HAD to go with every night, for financial reasons) is what I’d want in the Mavs’ shoes. 

I could be totally wrong on this - just my feeling, but I think Kleber is the PERFECT complement to Lively as a backup, if only he’d play like the Kleber from two years ago. I haven’t given up on that idea…but even if the Mavs have, it kind of seems to me like they’d need to replace Kleber with a new, better Kleber. Physical and defensive, yes (Kleber used to be both of those things). Rebounding…Kleber has never been great there, so it would be easy to improve on him in that area. 

Point is, if they add a center, shouldn’t it be a guy who offers a way to play 5-out, giving them that option again? And if not, shouldn’t it be at least another guy who can play pick and roll, like Lively and Powell?

Ya we’re definitely on the same page. We both feel the solution is either restore Maxi to his former self or upgrade that sort of tweener role so we can play multiple ways. Luka LOVES matchup hunting in the playoffs and that is so much easier with a floor spacing center.

That player is certainly hard to find and when you do he’s expensive so Maxi bouncing back would be awesome but I’m pretty concerned there.

[mvossman]

Ya, when I say 48 mins of great C play, I don’t literally mean a full 48 minutes every game for all games. I think we have a good smallball C option in GWill who can keep the 5 out dream alive. I’ve been also saying it lately, Isaiah Stewart has come on strong to begin this season shooting the 3, HE, I think, would be a great Maxi upgrade if after his % normalizes he can stay up there at or above league average. Eventually I think Lively will get to the point where he gets the green light to shoot 3’s as well as it seems that’s a part of his development.

I just really think that our defensive path forward with both Luka and Kyrie on the team is to choose rim protection and rebounding over perimeter defense. Not saying to give up on perimeter defense, just that when 2 of your 3-4 perimeter guys on the court are Luka and Kyrie, you can’t possibly think that having 1 guy out there is going to make that much of a difference.

We all see clearly how well this team works with Lively out there, I’d just like that to be the case for longer than Lively’s minutes (he’s averaging 24.3 mpg so there is a lot of time without him). 

I put out a list of guys I’d like to see as varying degrees of upgrade on Discord a couple days ago. At that time I hadn’t thought about Poeltl. I’m in between your thoughts and Dan’s on him. He is certainly the type of solid upgrade we could use for much of his proven game, but I don’t know enough about him to know if he is good for our offense. I do suppose if he is a hard worker, Luka and Kyrie can make the most out of effort. 

That list was (in no order):
Gafford
Hartenstein 
Allen
Capela
Stewart
Zubac

There are others I’m sure that I don’t have on that list too (especially some of these young up and comers), Poeltl probably should be there IMO.

I worry this is more of a regular season strategy than a playoff strategy.  A lot of those bigs have struggled or got played off the court to some degree during the playoffs and most of them will cost assets. I thought we had a decent defense with Luka and Brunson during the WCF run (without a dominating center). No reason we can't do that with Luka and Kyrie.

I see the argument to get a vet min backup traditional center for those times when we are getting killed in the paint.  Its a problem that Lively is our only big that can rebound.  McGee would have made sense in this capacity, but I think Luka had issues with him.  Shouldn't be that hard to find somebody, and as Dan has pointed out, we still have a little exception left to go over min if we have to.

[HAguiar95]

IMO what we need, like Nico said, an athletic rebounder, like a backup PF type that could potentially play some minutes at C (think Bobby Portis) that can shoot. Probably plays 20mpg. Maxi and Grant can shoot and are good defensively, but none of them can jump and rebound the ball.

I'd like to not spend a pick on it, cause it'll be needed when we trade for a starting defensive minded SF (right now Green/DJJ will have to hold). Holding into that pick, our assets in the summer for a big move would be Green/Hardy/2 1sts/3 swaps

Looking around the league it could be:

Covington (PHI), Smith (IND), Craig (CHI), Nance (NOP), Isaac (ORL), Boucher (TOR), Aldama (MEM).

If anyone of those could be had for Holmes/O-Max/2nds, we'd have:

Guards - Luka, Kyrie, Hardy

Wings - Jones Jr., Hardaway, Green.

Forwards - Williams, Backup PF (Luka/Kleber/DJJ could fill some minutes here)

Bigs - Lively, Powell, Kleber

[ItsGoTime]

I worry this is more of a regular season strategy than a playoff strategy.  A lot of those bigs have struggled or got played off the court to some degree during the playoffs and most of them will cost assets. I thought we had a decent defense with Luka and Brunson during the WCF run (without a dominating center). No reason we can't do that with Luka and Kyrie.

I see the argument to get a vet min backup traditional center for those times when we are getting killed in the paint.  Its a problem that Lively is our only big that can rebound.  McGee would have made sense in this capacity, but I think Luka had issues with him.  Shouldn't be that hard to find somebody, and as Dan has pointed out, we still have a little exception left to go over min if we have to.

I mean, how is starting a rookie in the playoffs a playoff strategy? The issues of playing C’s off the court happen much less in the opening rounds and getting a higher seed in the regular season helps in that regard. I also believe there is a crop of incoming C’s that is going to eventually break the current GSW clone trend. Lively is possibly one of those types, but there are still a lot of if’s to be figured out with him (I’m optimistic they will, but optimism is not reality).

I also don’t think he is so frail of mind to think some chatter about bringing in a better player ahead of him will break him, and if it did, glad we found out sooner rather than later (this was in response to KL’s statement, and yes KL, I don’t think you really meant it to look that way).

I have just enjoyed watching the HUGE difference in the team dynamic when Lively is in as opposed to him not being in. He has only played 24.3 mpg, I’d like to see that HUGE difference for closer to 48 mpg.

If I had my preference, Hartenstein or Gafford AND Stewart would be on this team. Hart and Gaff would be good enough starters if they outplay Lively in the beginning, but GREAT off the bench once he surpasses them. iStew would be a pretty great Maxi replacement/upgrade who can play that mixed PF/C role off the bench (and I believe with more minutes). They are all also young enough to grow with the team. I myself would give up a lot to make that happen.

Kinda tired of the pick discussion but undeterred from my stance when we’re going to have 2 more picks available next offseason. That is plenty enough to do what needs to be done after the bigs are solved.

[KillerLeft]

Kinda tired of the pick discussion but undeterred from my stance when we’re going to have 2 more picks available next offseason. That is plenty enough to do what needs to be done after the bigs are solved.

We're all tired of this discussion, but VERY OBVIOUSLY this is not a reason to spend the pick. 

Finding a use for the pick the merits the pick's inclusion is what should prompt a trigger pull on spending it. The absence of remaining picks afterwards isn't the reason for reluctance, it's the proof that basically any other time this franchise has spent a pick in a trade, recently, they've been bad trades. 

If a GM's goal is to spend every resource possible to make the team better right now, all of the time, then they are a poor, poor, poor GM. That method is in the wrong order.

[ItsGoTime]

Holding into that pick, our assets in the summer for a big move would be Green/Hardy/2 1sts/3 swaps

Holding onto our 27, next offseason we will have 3 firsts, not 2. This is why I think it’s a bit trivial to hold onto the 27. There is no player that is worth 3 picks that we need on the team after we have correctly used the 27 this year to make the team better this year (and that player or 2 will be much more acclimated to the team next year as you bring in the 2 FRP quality SF).

[ItsGoTime]

We're all tired of this discussion, but VERY OBVIOUSLY this is not a reason to spend the pick. 

Finding a use for the pick the merits the pick's inclusion is what should prompt a trigger pull on spending it. The absence of remaining picks afterwards isn't the reason for reluctance, it's the proof that basically any other time this franchise has spent a pick in a trade, recently, they've been bad trades. 

If a GM's goal is to spend every resource possible to make the team better right now, all of the time, then they are a poor, poor, poor GM. That method is in the wrong order.

I don’t think I’ve said anything to the contrary of this statement. I am not wanting to spend the pick because it’s burning a hole in my pocket, I want to spend it on making the team better, because as is, the team is finding great success and I love that, but other than a few hardcore fans, we all know it’s not arrived yet.

[KillerLeft]

I don’t think I’ve said anything to the contrary of this statement. I am not wanting to spend the pick because it’s burning a hole in my pocket, I want to spend it on making the team better, because as is, the team is finding great success and I love that, but other than a few hardcore fans, we all know it’s not arrived yet.

And I'll agree the second I see an idea on how to use that '27 that merits its inclusion. Poetl aint it. 

I would use it for OG, but it's probably not enough, and even then...can we be sure that O-Max isn't contributing by playoff time? 

Sometimes the best move is no move at all.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Who’s ready for green/27 to be moved for Julius Randle?

BE PREPARED

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Maxi/Holmes/Green/27 for Randle/Sims works.

Just saying…

[SleepingHero]

Kyrie trying to work some magic on Kawhi?

[ItsGoTime]

And I'll agree the second I see an idea on how to use that '27 that merits its inclusion. Poetl aint it. 

I would use it for OG, but it's probably not enough, and even then...can we be sure that O-Max isn't contributing by playoff time? 

Sometimes the best move is no move at all.

Sure, but my thoughts don’t require your agreement.

Poeltl may or may not be it, I don’t know, I don’t think his value comes down much (or at all) if it isn’t the exact right fit cause I think there would at least be parts of his game that do fit.

I think what is kinda lost in all this is our assessments of the value of the proposed outgoing players too. We are pretty far apart on that if nothing is changed in your mind. 

As far as SF targets? I’m very much in agreement with Dan on that thought. An upgraded big group is a much bigger upgrade overall than an upgrade at SF. We’ll also have more assets than we have now to work on that in the offseason. A SnT for PG in the offseason using 1 FRP (or less) would be pretty amazing with a solidified big group that has already acclimated to the group as a whole and is ready for a full training camp together.

[F Gump]

I think the primary "problem" with Josh Green is one of perception based on expectations (or hopes) but not on reality.

He is who he is.

He's not overpaid, because he was paid for who he is. Nor should he be expendable and labeled a disappointment. He's still that same guy you should have known you were getting. 

He's still a good defender, very active, a glue guy -- but he isn't much of a scoring threat, because he is as passive when it comes to shooting as he is active when it comes to defending. He defers. He's the kind of secondary guy you want to add, when you have offensive stars who take a high percentage of the shots, but struggle defending. Does that describe a team you know?

This year he shoots almost EXACTLY as often as he has each of the last 2 years. His shot is a bit awry from before, missing one short shot a game that he made in past years, and has missed a few extra FTs over the year so far, but that will come. It's a long season.

But he's the same guy, he's what they paid for, and he's going to keep giving what he's always given. That's all good.

[KillerLeft]

Who’s ready for green/27 to be moved for Julius Randle?

BE PREPARED

GROOOOOOOSSSSSSSSS

---

Sure, but my thoughts don’t require your agreement.

Of course not! You can keep typing overtly wrong things until you're blue in the face. Makes for great content!