Trade & FA 2023-24: Booker Likes NYK? Vogel Out? Suns Imploding?

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

THJ is both a better offensive player and better defensive player than Marvin Bagley.  This would be a tanking move rather than a winning move.  We need players who can hit open 3-pointers and play solid defense next to Kyrie and Luka.  THJ can do both.  Bagley can do neither.  If we want a scoring big off the bench, Christian Wood would be a much better option as he is a good 3-point shooter.  Also, if Jason Kidd didn’t like Christian Wood, he will like Marvin Bagley even less.

Agreed.  I've been saying it since mid last season that Wood is our ideal 6thman at 30mins/game.  3pt efficiency would digress a little, but midrange and paint scoring would increase tremendously, not to mention stretching a defensive big would open stretch the defense much more, creating more mismatches.

[Mavs2021]

In light of the AD and Brown extensions, I really don´t understand why the Hornets keep f****** around with PJ Washington. With the new CBA and the cap development, 18M/year will be barely above the MLE in 2-3 years. Also it´s Charlotte. That´s truly a place with even worse FA drawing power than Dallas. If the Hornets want to acquire one of these super max stars, a contract like Washington to match will be valuable.

[RDB]

If I recall, one of the biggest reasons Duke played zone was because Bagley was so bad at defense.  I can't count how many times I have read something like, "just coach him up on defense and with his athleticism he should be good" but it rarely plays out that way.  I can think of a few wings that have turned there career around with defense (Wiggins, DSJ) but I can't think of an offense only big who came into the league and turned his career around with defense.

Before I make my point again, I want to apologize for triggering you with my “coach him up” comment…my bad.  If you noticed, many of my statements were from the article I posted.  I wasn’t trying to sell anything.  I was simply replying to an earlier post in a manner I thought was unique to this board…to support the idea around “what if” regarding Bagley instead of bashing the idea.  I thought it would be refreshing.

You may be right regarding player development histories. I’m not going to research it because it misses the point I was making.  What I will say is you chose to make a comment that wasn’t aligned with my statement.  I never said a good defender…I said average defender.  I’m not sure how you distinguish the two but based on your examples, I have an idea.

As to your “turned his career around” comment, again you chose to go to an extreme to try to make a point.  My statement was needing to be average on defense.  IMO, he already has utility on offense, it’s BAD defense keeping him off the court.  Would you not agree that if he were just average, he would have significantly more value.  Is average unachievable for a 23 year old based on his background?

Regarding your comment that Bagley was the issue at Duke, this is what the article had to say:

      There were a lot of bad defenders on Duke’s team, and they were all freshman—Trevon 
      Duval, Gary Trent Jr., Wendell Carter Jr., Bagley

Is that true.  I don’t know, but it was what I was referring to.  I’m not looking it up because again it misses the point.  However, I know that the author also included a statement from a Duke staff member stating the team had issues.  I guess it’s possible that he was referring only to Bagley.

As far as development and the dreaded CU phrase, this was the section from the article that got me wondering:

   Bagley himself only played 3 years of high school ball and was allowed to do whatever he 
   wanted at every level.  His AAU program was run by his father and he never participated 
   in any USA basketball events.  Has he ever truly been coached defensively?

Is that true?  Again, I don’t know and felt no need to do a deep dive, it’s not that important to me.  I did however think based on what was presented that it was a really interesting question.

My point was simple.  Could it be that the issues with Bagley’s defense stem from a lack of history and focus at that end of the court?  There is nothing from Bagley’s makeup that would suggest that he should be bad.  He has the feet, the athleticism, the temperament, etc., yet he is bad.

I never suggested the Mav’s should get him, nor did I suggest a trade for Hardaway.  I actually said based on recent history, the Mav’s might not be the best team to teach defense.  What I did suggest is that there may be something there worth taking a chance on at the right price.  In my opinion, Bagley with AVERAGE defense would actually have value at PF.

[Chicagojk]

I wonder if a team gives him a chance? I believe due to a new role, he is eligible for a two way.

https://twitter.com/swishcultures_/statu...88353?s=61&t=-aAylloVlVRI2-DRvoajoA

[Chicagojk]

THJ is both a better offensive player and better defensive player than Marvin Bagley.  This would be a tanking move rather than a winning move.  We need players who can hit open 3-pointers and play solid defense next to Kyrie and Luka.  THJ can do both.  Bagley can do neither.  If we want a scoring big off the bench, Christian Wood would be a much better option as he is a good 3-point shooter.  Also, if Jason Kidd didn’t like Christian Wood, he will like Marvin Bagley even less.

I would be surprised if the Mavs would go after a player like Bagley.  He is not the type of player they were targeting this summer.   I was wondering if he potentially is a really buy low type of player who in two years he has really turned into something.  Maybe not.  Maybe in 2 years he is begging for a job from an nba team.

There is no doubt Hardaway is the better player.  Hardaway is a really solid player.   Good even.   My issue if he is on the roster this year, he is going to get minutes over Hardy.   He will also probably finish several games over Green.   Hardaway is better than Hardy now.   He is also probably better than Green.   So maybe he should play over both of them.  But it appears the Mavs made moves this summer not thinking Hardaway is in their plans.    While he is better than both, there is an argument the better long term strategy would be to throw both in the deep end and see if they can swim.   That may not be the right move, but I expect Hardaway plays a good amount of time if he is on the roster this year.

If traded, what is the market for Hardaway?  I don’t think he gets Capela without draft picks.  Same for Bojan.   Next offseason, he would be an attractive expiring but not sure what type of offers he brings.   So would you move him for a high upside type player who hasn’t really shown much yet?   Not sure if I would, but I was just interested in looking at guys who could pop over the next few years who are potentially available for a low cost.

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

Hardaway is better than Hardy now.  

Debatable, but probably isn't.

He is also probably better than Green.    

NO, he isn't.
Green was at worst, the 3rd best player on the Mavs pre-Kyrie trade.
The 2nd best player that time wasn't THJ.

[KillerLeft]

Before I make my point again, I want to apologize for triggering you with my “coach him up” comment…my bad.  If you noticed, many of my statements were from the article I posted.  I wasn’t trying to sell anything.  I was simply replying to an earlier post in a manner I thought was unique to this board…to support the idea around “what if” regarding Bagley instead of bashing the idea.  I thought it would be refreshing.

You may be right regarding player development histories. I’m not going to research it because it misses the point I was making.  What I will say is you chose to make a comment that wasn’t aligned with my statement.  I never said a good defender…I said average defender.  I’m not sure how you distinguish the two but based on your examples, I have an idea.

As to your “turned his career around” comment, again you chose to go to an extreme to try to make a point.  My statement was needing to be average on defense.  IMO, he already has utility on offense, it’s BAD defense keeping him off the court.  Would you not agree that if he were just average, he would have significantly more value.  Is average unachievable for a 23 year old based on his background?

Regarding your comment that Bagley was the issue at Duke, this is what the article had to say:

      There were a lot of bad defenders on Duke’s team, and they were all freshman—Trevon 
      Duval, Gary Trent Jr., Wendell Carter Jr., Bagley

Is that true.  I don’t know, but it was what I was referring to.  I’m not looking it up because again it misses the point.  However, I know that the author also included a statement from a Duke staff member stating the team had issues.  I guess it’s possible that he was referring only to Bagley.

As far as development and the dreaded CU phrase, this was the section from the article that got me wondering:

   Bagley himself only played 3 years of high school ball and was allowed to do whatever he 
   wanted at every level.  His AAU program was run by his father and he never participated 
   in any USA basketball events.  Has he ever truly been coached defensively?

Is that true?  Again, I don’t know and felt no need to do a deep dive, it’s not that important to me.  I did however think based on what was presented that it was a really interesting question.

My point was simple.  Could it be that the issues with Bagley’s defense stem from a lack of history and focus at that end of the court?  There is nothing from Bagley’s makeup that would suggest that he should be bad.  He has the feet, the athleticism, the temperament, etc., yet he is bad.

I never suggested the Mav’s should get him, nor did I suggest a trade for Hardaway.  I actually said based on recent history, the Mav’s might not be the best team to teach defense.  What I did suggest is that there may be something there worth taking a chance on at the right price.  In my opinion, Bagley with AVERAGE defense would actually have value at PF.

The problem isn’t even his defense, imho. The problem is that like 78% of these guys (a number straight from my rear end) come into the NBA thinking they’re going to be featured offensive players. And, almost all of them are ALMOOOOOST good enough to justify that expectation. But only the top 1% are good enough to be featured on a team and WIN GAMES. The rest either figure out they need to learn how to rebound/defend/space the floor or all of the above and have nice careers or bitch and whine about not getting treated fairly by coaches and lose their spot in the league. 

For Bagley to learn how to be a passable enough defender to stay on the floor, he’d first have to overcome being offended by not being given a starring role just based off of who he is and being the 2nd pick.

[surfpuckmd]

I would be surprised if the Mavs would go after a player like Bagley.  He is not the type of player they were targeting this summer.   I was wondering if he potentially is a really buy low type of player who in two years he has really turned into something.  Maybe not.  Maybe in 2 years he is begging for a job from an nba team.

There is no doubt Hardaway is the better player.  Hardaway is a really solid player.   Good even.   My issue if he is on the roster this year, he is going to get minutes over Hardy.   He will also probably finish several games over Green.   Hardaway is better than Hardy now.   He is also probably better than Green.   So maybe he should play over both of them.  But it appears the Mavs made moves this summer not thinking Hardaway is in their plans.    While he is better than both, there is an argument the better long term strategy would be to throw both in the deep end and see if they can swim.   That may not be the right move, but I expect Hardaway plays a good amount of time if he is on the roster this year.

If traded, what is the market for Hardaway?  I don’t think he gets Capela without draft picks.  Same for Bojan.   Next offseason, he would be an attractive expiring but not sure what type of offers he brings.   So would you move him for a high upside type player who hasn’t really shown much yet?   Not sure if I would, but I was just interested in looking at guys who could pop over the next few years who are potentially available for a low cost.

I like the idea of taking a chance on a former lottery pick who hasn't worked out.  I really liked when the Mavs signed Ntilikina and I actually thought he seemed useful during his first season with the Mavs.  There were some good opportunities to take that kind of shot during this past free agency-  Mo Bamba and Cam Reddish seemed like players worth taking a chance on.  Both signed minimum deals during free agency.   Unfortunately, Bagley is due more than $12 million a year for the next two seasons.   I think that's too much to give to a guy who has been pretty bad during his first five NBA seasons.  If the Pistons would take Richaun Holmes for Bagley, I think it would be worth consideration.  Giving up THJ though for Bagley is too much though.  THJ just fits too well with Luka and Kyrie and is a trusted and dependable part of our rotation.

I believe we all worry too much about not having enough minutes for our useful players.  I think we can anticipate some injuries and some rest days.   These should provide enough playing time for THJ, Hardy and Green.  If everyone is healthy, then I hope Seth Curry is the player who sits rather than Hardy. 

 I don't really understand why the Mavericks declared an off-season goal to trade Tim Hardaway Jr.  I think the Mavericks have a history of trying to sell the idea that we'll be Ok if we can just get rid of a particular player.  I assume this attitude comes from our owner.  I think it may serve as distraction from past failures to secure our own free agents.  This attitude resulted in the dismal Porzingas for Dinwiddie and Bertans trade.  As I recall, we seemed to break up badly with Monte Ellis and Chandler Parsons after they provided some good seasons for us.  Then, it was Deandre Jordan and Wes Matthews who had to be sent away.  This off-season, they declared that we needed to be rid of Christian Wood, JaVale McGee and Tim Hardaway Jr?.  

My hope is that Nico Harrison and Dennis Lindsay continue their strong summer and convince our petulant owner to just keep Tim Hardaway Jr.

[surfpuckmd]

Debatable, but probably isn't.


NO, he isn't.
Green was at worst, the 3rd best player on the Mavs pre-Kyrie trade.
The 2nd best player that time wasn't THJ.

THJ is a better player currently than Jaden Hardy because he is much better defensively.  

Hardy has the potential to be better as he is a much more dynamic offensive player. 

Fortunately, we have space in the rotation for both players and there is no reason to trade THJ unless it is for a clear upgrade at center.

[RDB]

The problem isn’t even his defense, imho. The problem is that like 78% of these guys (a number straight from my rear end) come into the NBA thinking they’re going to be featured offensive players. And, almost all of them are ALMOOOOOST good enough to justify that expectation. But only the top 1% are good enough to be featured on a team and WIN GAMES. The rest either figure out they need to learn how to rebound/defend/space the floor or all of the above and have nice careers or bitch and whine about not getting treated fairly by coaches and lose their spot in the league. 

For Bagley to learn how to be a passable enough defender to stay on the floor, he’d first have to overcome being offended by not being given a starring role just based off of who he is and being the 2nd pick.

Interesting theory…sounds an awful lot like what I said in my post.

“It feels like he needs to go somewhere where he can develop without the expectations of immediate results, assuming he can swallow his pride.”

[Dundalis]

THJ is a better player currently than Jaden Hardy because he is much better defensively.  

Hardy has the potential to be better as he is a much more dynamic offensive player. 

Fortunately, we have space in the rotation for both players and there is no reason to trade THJ unless it is for a clear upgrade at center.

Neither are very good defenders. The gap is certainly not "much better". And Hardy will get better, THJ is what he is.

[surfpuckmd]

Neither are very good defenders. The gap is certainly not "much better". And Hardy will get better, THJ is what he is.

THJ was an average defensive player last season. Jaden Hardy was a bad defender last year.   I think that qualifies as much better.

I hope Jaden Hardy becomes better at defense.  Most rookies struggle defensively in the NBA so there's reasonable hope he'll get better.  I also think it's likely that he will be a better player overall than THJ in the next 1-2 years.  That doesn't mean we should trade THJ this summer.

[surfpuckmd]

In light of the AD and Brown extensions, I really don´t understand why the Hornets keep f****** around with PJ Washington. With the new CBA and the cap development, 18M/year will be barely above the MLE in 2-3 years. Also it´s Charlotte. That´s truly a place with even worse FA drawing power than Dallas. If the Hornets want to acquire one of these super max stars, a contract like Washington to match will be valuable.

Charlotte is a very poorly run franchise.  That's the explanation.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1687538726556073996



Frankie Smokes to Charlotte on a 1 yr deal.

[Mapka]

Charlotte is a very poorly run franchise.  That's the explanation.

Or maybe PJ Washington has the same problem as Wood and everybody knows it.

[mvossman]

Before I make my point again, I want to apologize for triggering you with my “coach him up” comment…my bad.  If you noticed, many of my statements were from the article I posted.  I wasn’t trying to sell anything.  I was simply replying to an earlier post in a manner I thought was unique to this board…to support the idea around “what if” regarding Bagley instead of bashing the idea.  I thought it would be refreshing.

You may be right regarding player development histories. I’m not going to research it because it misses the point I was making.  What I will say is you chose to make a comment that wasn’t aligned with my statement.  I never said a good defender…I said average defender.  I’m not sure how you distinguish the two but based on your examples, I have an idea.

As to your “turned his career around” comment, again you chose to go to an extreme to try to make a point.  My statement was needing to be average on defense.  IMO, he already has utility on offense, it’s BAD defense keeping him off the court.  Would you not agree that if he were just average, he would have significantly more value.  Is average unachievable for a 23 year old based on his background?

Regarding your comment that Bagley was the issue at Duke, this is what the article had to say:

      There were a lot of bad defenders on Duke’s team, and they were all freshman—Trevon 
      Duval, Gary Trent Jr., Wendell Carter Jr., Bagley

Is that true.  I don’t know, but it was what I was referring to.  I’m not looking it up because again it misses the point.  However, I know that the author also included a statement from a Duke staff member stating the team had issues.  I guess it’s possible that he was referring only to Bagley.

As far as development and the dreaded CU phrase, this was the section from the article that got me wondering:

   Bagley himself only played 3 years of high school ball and was allowed to do whatever he 
   wanted at every level.  His AAU program was run by his father and he never participated 
   in any USA basketball events.  Has he ever truly been coached defensively?

Is that true?  Again, I don’t know and felt no need to do a deep dive, it’s not that important to me.  I did however think based on what was presented that it was a really interesting question.

My point was simple.  Could it be that the issues with Bagley’s defense stem from a lack of history and focus at that end of the court?  There is nothing from Bagley’s makeup that would suggest that he should be bad.  He has the feet, the athleticism, the temperament, etc., yet he is bad.

I never suggested the Mav’s should get him, nor did I suggest a trade for Hardaway.  I actually said based on recent history, the Mav’s might not be the best team to teach defense.  What I did suggest is that there may be something there worth taking a chance on at the right price.  In my opinion, Bagley with AVERAGE defense would actually have value at PF.

I wasn't triggered by your comments so much as they provided a useful opportunity to say something that has been on my mind.  

My biggest issue with Bagley from the beginning is matter of fit.  He has the same syndrome as Powell.  He is a 5 on offense, but a 4 on defense.  If he manages to become an average defender, it will very likely be at the 4.  Its hard to see him ever becoming an average defensive center with his limited rim protection.  On the other end, I am of belief that you are hamstringing yourself offensively with two bigs on the floor that can't shoot.  That means Bagley needs to play with a floor spacing, rim protecting center.  Those are rare (we happen to have one, but he struggles to stay on the court).  I don't think he will ever be good enough to warrant building a roster around him, and otherwise his fit will be sub optimal even if he reaches best case.

[Chicagojk]

I wonder if a team gives him a chance?  I believe due to a new role, he is eligible for a two way.

https://twitter.com/swishcultures_/statu...88353?s=61&t=-aAylloVlVRI2-DRvoajoA

Looks like he is getting some traction

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/168...04512?s=20

[surfpuckmd]

Before I make my point again, I want to apologize for triggering you with my “coach him up” comment…my bad.  If you noticed, many of my statements were from the article I posted.  I wasn’t trying to sell anything.  I was simply replying to an earlier post in a manner I thought was unique to this board…to support the idea around “what if” regarding Bagley instead of bashing the idea.  I thought it would be refreshing.

You may be right regarding player development histories. I’m not going to research it because it misses the point I was making.  What I will say is you chose to make a comment that wasn’t aligned with my statement.  I never said a good defender…I said average defender.  I’m not sure how you distinguish the two but based on your examples, I have an idea.

As to your “turned his career around” comment, again you chose to go to an extreme to try to make a point.  My statement was needing to be average on defense.  IMO, he already has utility on offense, it’s BAD defense keeping him off the court.  Would you not agree that if he were just average, he would have significantly more value.  Is average unachievable for a 23 year old based on his background?

Regarding your comment that Bagley was the issue at Duke, this is what the article had to say:

      There were a lot of bad defenders on Duke’s team, and they were all freshman—Trevon 
      Duval, Gary Trent Jr., Wendell Carter Jr., Bagley

Is that true.  I don’t know, but it was what I was referring to.  I’m not looking it up because again it misses the point.  However, I know that the author also included a statement from a Duke staff member stating the team had issues.  I guess it’s possible that he was referring only to Bagley.

As far as development and the dreaded CU phrase, this was the section from the article that got me wondering:

   Bagley himself only played 3 years of high school ball and was allowed to do whatever he 
   wanted at every level.  His AAU program was run by his father and he never participated 
   in any USA basketball events.  Has he ever truly been coached defensively?

Is that true?  Again, I don’t know and felt no need to do a deep dive, it’s not that important to me.  I did however think based on what was presented that it was a really interesting question.

My point was simple.  Could it be that the issues with Bagley’s defense stem from a lack of history and focus at that end of the court?  There is nothing from Bagley’s makeup that would suggest that he should be bad.  He has the feet, the athleticism, the temperament, etc., yet he is bad.

I never suggested the Mav’s should get him, nor did I suggest a trade for Hardaway.  I actually said based on recent history, the Mav’s might not be the best team to teach defense.  What I did suggest is that there may be something there worth taking a chance on at the right price.  In my opinion, Bagley with AVERAGE defense would actually have value at PF.

Bagley has good hands and good touch around the basket.  He is a pretty good leaper and his rebounding looks good on the counting stats.  He had a lot of flaws though and not just defensively.  He’s a low IQ player which is why he wouldn’t work here and wouldn’t get minutes under Jason Kidd.  He’s a poor passer and screener.  He is often lost on defense.  As others have stated, he doesn’t protect the rim but he’s also not quick enough to cover most 4s.  

He is also not strong enough to defend a lot of 5s (kind of like Powell).  He also doesn’t really box out so wouldn’t solve our rebounding problem despite his numbers.

He could get better with experience.  I believe you said the Mavericks might not be the best team to develop him.  Monty Williams is a good coach so maybe Bagley will work hard and listen and improve defensively.  Maybe he’ll also gain 15 lbs and become stronger and able to guard 5s.  If all of that happens, he’d be an asset.  I think it’s all unlikely though and as I said before, he’s a lesser player than Christian Wood currently with most of the same flaws.

[surfpuckmd]

Looks like he is getting some traction

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/168...04512?s=20

If he’s eligible for a two-way then he’d be a fun reclamation project to pull for.  Injuries derailed his career.  Despite this he seemed like a good athlete and has good size.  He also seems like someone who really loves the game as he smiles constantly.  I think he’d be a good pickup for us (after we sign Derrick Jones Jr. to our 15th roster spot).

[Mavs2021]

Or maybe PJ Washington has the same problem as Wood and everybody knows it.

So you are saying we´ll trade a 1st for Washington?