Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms

[Kidnova]

Just pointing out that both Hardy and Green have a long way to go to even get into the conversation if we are looking at impact metrics. When I read that Green is more or less the same player and already more efficient on offense I start to question my sanity. Impact metrics are a good way to account for all the stuff that isn´t showing up in the boxscore.
As far as my overall interpretation of RAPM goes. In the same role as a first or second option on offense Caruso would obviously never be as good as the rest of the guys on the list. But in his role as glue guy and swiss-army knife he has a big impact on the game.

Going back to the initial trade proposal one would have to be really high on Green or Hardy (similar impact within the next three years) not to inlcude them in a potential trade package. Going back even further to Stein´s post from the deadline it explains why the Bulls asked for (probably still want) two first round picks in return.

Nobody said that Green is more or less the same player.  Caruso is significantly better on defense, nobody argues that point.  The original question being asked was are you willing to give up Hardy to get Caruso, and that eventually evolved into a discussion of whether or not Green could potentially grow into a better all-around player than Caruso, given the age difference.  I was in the camp of no originally, but I will admit that some of you have made compelling arguments that Caruso may be better than I've given him credit for, so I'm decidedly on the fence now.

[dirkfansince1998]

The point he is making is Caruso is good.  That is showing his on court impact (which includes both offense and defense) and that Caruso defense is so good it makes up for his modest offense.  I just posted above some very questionable results from this analysis.  It appears there is too much noise in RAPM, even for a 5 year sample.  Its why the best comprehensive advanced stats (EPM, DPM) leverage something in addition to on/off.

I look at it as impact in a given role. Caruso wouldn´t be among the best in the league as a primary ballhandler but he is one of (if not) the best glue guys in the league.
Powell ranking as high isn´t a suprise. In his given role as a 20 min per game big he has been better than most fans want to acknowledge. Just looking at the last season he actually lead the Mavs in raw +/-.

Funny that you mention EPM. Guess who leads the league on defense.

[omahen]

Noel signed with Sacramento

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1681371836066430999

[mvossman]

I look at it as impact in a given role. Caruso wouldn´t be among the best in the league as a primary ballhandler but he is one of (if not) the best glue guys in the league.
Powell ranking as high isn´t a suprise. In his given role as a 20 min per game big he has been better than most fans want to acknowledge. Just looking at the last season he actually lead the Mavs in raw +/-.

Funny that you mention EPM. Guess who leads the league on defense.

The crazy thing is that I love Caruso for the same reasons you do, and am not as much of a fan of the kind of player Hardy is.  I never would have guessed that I would be arguing against Caruso in any BB related discussion.  But the reality is that Caruso is a 29 year old role player and Hardy is a 20 year old with massive upside.

[KillerLeft]

But the reality is that Caruso is a 29 year old role player and Hardy is a 20 year old with massive upside.

That’s the game. 

When do you cash in on a player? When do you have patience? How far out of the best interest path of the team are you willing to go to give that young player the sunlight, water and oxygen he needs to grow? Are you 100% sure he’ll ever be what you want him to be, and if so, can you realistically provide the runway for him to take off, or would he need to be on another team to get there? When does it make sense to add a veteran who can contribute right now? How many of those players would you need to add, and how good would they need to be, to contend quickly? 

We all talk a big game, but I imagine these decisions are super tough when the stakes are real. 

Based on the constant barrage of reminders that THJ has been shopped all summer, my guess is that the Mavs aren’t ready to move Hardy. But, if they expect Hardy to be the third scorer for the team this year, that should tell us something about what they think about their chances to contend, imo. 

This is going to be a VERY interesting season.

[SleepingHero]

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/16813...30999?s=46&t=Fmdr94oXagcEyy75KJqaFg

Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn)
Free agent C Nerlens Noel has agreed on a one-year, $3.1M deal with the Sacramento Kings, his agent @georgelangberg of GSL Sports Group tells ESPN. Noel gives the Kings a defensive presence in the frontline rotation.


Kings must have some solid hot dogs (will the hot dog jokes ever get old? I think not).

[Kidnova]

The Nets released RaiQuan Gray. Worth a look? Seems to at least a look on a 2-way if he's eligible.

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/raiquan-gray/

[michaeltex]

This is going to be a VERY interesting season.

That's probably the truest statement of the summer, right there!

[DallasMaverick]

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/16813...30999?s=46&t=Fmdr94oXagcEyy75KJqaFg

Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn)
Free agent C Nerlens Noel has agreed on a one-year, $3.1M deal with the Sacramento Kings, his agent @georgelangberg of GSL Sports Group tells ESPN. Noel gives the Kings a defensive presence in the frontline rotation.


Kings must have some solid hot dogs (will the hot dog jokes ever get old? I think not).

So...

Will Noel make more this season than Wood?

[michaeltex]

I don't know where else to pose this question, so I'll drop it here.

Filled with good vibes from the SL performance of our rookies, SnT for Williams, draft day trade for Holmes, and ongoing speculation that DAL can get in on a deal for either Towns or Capella, I took a sip of Koolaid and put on my rosiest of glasses and started looking into the future.

I'm thinking about how this summer has been about surrounding Luka (I still consider it HIS team) with decent defenders, more size, a bigger frontline, 40%-ish 3pt shooters, and bigs that appear to have some handling skills (e.gl, OMax) and more depth of PG-type ball handlers.

So my question is, If the supporting cast improves as much as we hope it will, does Kyrie become superfluous?

The reason I'm asking is I'm not sure there's enough balls in play with both Luka and Kyrie and 8 other guys wanting to get their shots as well. Individually, both are phenomenal talents. But I'm not sure they are complementary, longer term. I'm interested to see what gets worked out in training camp, but, IMO, we have two alpha dogs but only room for one. If it leans too much Luka's way, does Kyrie get triggered into being a problem?

[mvossman]

I don't know where else to pose this question, so I'll drop it here.

Filled with good vibes from the SL performance of our rookies, SnT for Williams, draft day trade for Holmes, and ongoing speculation that DAL can get in on a deal for either Towns or Capella, I took a sip of Koolaid and put on my rosiest of glasses and started looking into the future.

I'm thinking about how this summer has been about surrounding Luka (I still consider it HIS team) with decent defenders, more size, a bigger frontline, 40%-ish 3pt shooters, and bigs that appear to have some handling skills (e.gl, OMax) and more depth of PG-type ball handlers.

So my question is, If the supporting cast improves as much as we hope it will, does Kyrie become superfluous?

The reason I'm asking is I'm not sure there's enough balls in play with both Luka and Kyrie and 8 other guys wanting to get their shots as well. Individually, both are phenomenal talents. But I'm not sure they are complementary, longer term. I'm interested to see what gets worked out in training camp, but, IMO, we have two alpha dogs but only room for one. If it leans too much Luka's way, does Kyrie get triggered into being a problem?

Luka can't do it all by himself.  We don't have that many ball handlers.  We have to have somebody like Kyrie (or Brunson) and Luka needs to figure out how to play with said player.  Otherwise its going to be really hard for Luka to win a chip.

[RGP1981]

Jaden Hardy for Max Christie swap... Who says no?

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2023...s-analysis

After having watched some of the summer league games, I would like to make this move. The Lakers probably say no but it doesn't hurt to ask. Christie is the sort of two-way player that I think is needed alongside Luka, while the Lakers might feel they want a scorer like Hardy.

[F Gump]

Jaden Hardy for Max Christie swap... Who says no?

Mavs need to grow their own developing talent, so to speak. The solution isn't to pore through someone else's and hope they let you have one (which of course they will only make the leftovers available to you), but to find the raw material yourself from 2nds and UDFAs and have the skilled personnel to make those into key players. That's where Caruso, Reaves, Christie, and so on came from. Also Strus, Vincent, Duncan Robinson, etc. And Alvarado, Herb Jones. J Vanderbilt. Naz Reid. The list goes on and on.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

Darryl Morey has fucked around for a long time and I think he's finally reach the "find out" stage.

they’ll win more games than the mavs next year guaranteed

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

So my question is, If the supporting cast improves as much as we hope it will, does Kyrie become superfluous?

The reason I'm asking is I'm not sure there's enough balls in play with both Luka and Kyrie and 8 other guys wanting to get their shots as well. Individually, both are phenomenal talents. But I'm not sure they are complementary, longer term. I'm interested to see what gets worked out in training camp, but, IMO, we have two alpha dogs but only room for one. If it leans too much Luka's way, does Kyrie get triggered into being a problem?

They aren't complimentary.
For a robin or a 1B, Luka needs someone who's not a minus defensively and can switch from on-ball to off-call in a snap.
Paul George types. (I'm not saying the Mavs should go after George though.)

Kyrie and Brunson are very good PG talents.
But "very good" at PG isn't the optimal use of resources for the Mavs.
A "solid" starter at PG is enough.

Kyrie IS NOT superfluous in a sense that the Mavs still need that third playmaker. 
But if Kyrie is to be shipped out, a natural PG must take his place. I say natural because a guy like Dinwiddie wouldn't suffice. 
I always thought the best PG next to Luka is someone who's more inclined on passing than shooting the ball himself. The likes of Lonzo Ball.

MJ didn't have the best PGs, but his PGs were all solid-to-good (not superstars).
And MJ wasn't even a PG.

What makes sense for the Mavs?
A Kyrie-Siakam swap at the TDL.
But the Mavs better have a PG ready if they do this.

Of course, we all need to see how the season plays out first for Luka and Kyrie.
But I'm not optimistic JKidd has the brains to make it work.

[The Jom]

Mavs need to grow their own developing talent, so to speak. The solution isn't to pore through someone else's and hope they let you have one (which of course they will only make the leftovers available to you), but to find the raw material yourself from 2nds and UDFAs and have the skilled personnel to make those into key players. That's where Caruso, Reaves, Christie, and so on came from. Also Strus, Vincent, Duncan Robinson, etc. And Alvarado, Herb Jones. J Vanderbilt. Naz Reid. The list goes on and on.

Are you implying the Mavs have not? That Brunson, Kleber, Finney-Smith don’t count?

[RGP1981]

The Mavs could and should have gone for Caruso when he left LAL. It was a missed opportunity. Similarly, Bruce Brown was exactly what last season's roster needed and could have been had for cheap last summer... DeAnthony Melton is another. All three of these guys have similar characteristics... good defenders, some ability to space the floor, some play-making ability, and some ability to put the ball on the floor and take it to the rim when Luka is drawing more of the opposing defense's attention.

Mavs need to grow their own developing talent, so to speak. The solution isn't to pore through someone else's and hope they let you have one (which of course they will only make the leftovers available to you), but to find the raw material yourself from 2nds and UDFAs and have the skilled personnel to make those into key players. That's where Caruso, Reaves, Christie, and so on came from. Also Strus, Vincent, Duncan Robinson, etc. And Alvarado, Herb Jones. J Vanderbilt. Naz Reid. The list goes on and on.

Well, I definitely agree that the Mavs need to grow their own talent!

The Mavs FO have not valued the draft for a long time. There have been times when I have wondered if they even scout or do workouts. They certainly do not do either activity to the level of some other teams like the Lakers. So, in order to make up for past deficiencies of the Mavs FO though, why can't one solution be to poach young players who have already shown something after being drafted, but have not yet shown not so much that they become too expensive to trade for? It's better to try for a Max Christie now before he blows up and becomes the next Austin Reaves.

Christie is going to be behind Reaves and D'lo at the SG position. I think Reaves will be the starter there but they will likely also use Gabe-D'lo together. They are bound to add a 3rd SG at some point in the season too, to replace the out-going Lonnie Walker and Malik Beasley. So, Hardy for Christie just might be possible.

[F Gump]

Are you implying the Mavs have not? That Brunson, Kleber, Finney-Smith don’t count?

They need more consistency in developing players. Their player development pipeline is way too sporadic and infrequent.

DFS 2016
Maxi 2017
Brunson 2018
2019 - none
2020- none [they did draft a 1st rounder here, Green]
2021 - none
Hardy 2022
2023 - none [they did draft two 1st rounders here, Lively and Prosper]

You can see the deep development area in 2019-2021 was not very aggressive or effective. So nothing was really added, And if you don't find and develop some projects every year to create an ongoing pipeline, where you can have some ready to replace those who will inevitably leave, in time you run dry. The most cap-friendly replacements are internal, and rarely other teams' free agents or players made available in trade.

[KillerLeft]

I don't know where else to pose this question, so I'll drop it here.
Filled with good vibes from the SL performance of our rookies, SnT for Williams, draft day trade for Holmes, and ongoing speculation that DAL can get in on a deal for either Towns or Capella, I took a sip of Koolaid and put on my rosiest of glasses and started looking into the future.
I'm thinking about how this summer has been about surrounding Luka (I still consider it HIS team) with decent defenders, more size, a bigger frontline, 40%-ish 3pt shooters, and bigs that appear to have some handling skills (e.gl, OMax) and more depth of PG-type ball handlers.
So my question is, If the supporting cast improves as much as we hope it will, does Kyrie become superfluous?
The reason I'm asking is I'm not sure there's enough balls in play with both Luka and Kyrie and 8 other guys wanting to get their shots as well. Individually, both are phenomenal talents. But I'm not sure they are complementary, longer term. I'm interested to see what gets worked out in training camp, but, IMO, we have two alpha dogs but only room for one. If it leans too much Luka's way, does Kyrie get triggered into being a problem?

I think multiple playmaker/all star types is probably a necessary thing if they want to contend. Even Dirk always had someone else, despite the Mavs taking grief for how little talent they put around him. First, there was Nash and Finley (how dumb were they to break that group up) and the truth is that Terry ran the pick and roll with Dirk amazingly. They made art together - probably one of the 5 best pick and roll duos in the history of the league. 

We might not think so much of Jamal Murray, but this past year he was probably more effective than a lot of names that ring out more. This exercise could go on and on. In a general sense, I’m sure we’re all on the same page about needing multiple creators of offense.

Your question about the overlap involved with Luka and Kyrie is an interesting one. There are times when I wonder if Luka will even be a PG for his entire NBA career. He’ll always be great with the ball in his hands, both scoring and passing, but he has been wearing down a bit at the end of seasons, recently, especially last year. He also seems incapable of doing anything but walking the ball up the court every time. The way he uses pace in his 1-on-1 play is second to none, but he doesn’t seem to get how advantageous it would be for the pace of the TEAM’s play to be unpredictable. Or, he has to conserve so much energy that he CAN’T play any other way.

Now, we’re hearing that he’s trying to get back in bubble shape. That’s encouraging, I think, if he’s going to be the main PG. But, if weight continues to be a problem as he ages (relatively, it’s not like he’s Zion) I wonder if it doesn’t ultimately make sense to have another guy be the PG who brings the ball up, assesses the scene, looking for a way to press or a mismatch somewhere before setting Luka up to go to work. In other words, make him a forward on BOTH ends, albeit an exceptionally great playmaking forward.

Also, the Mavs have slowly but surely been turning into the Harden Rockets, a team on which 4-6 players are asked to play defense and then make shots when Luka creates them. Great on paper, but that’s a difficult rhythm for players to thrive in, and the best teams always seem to understand that when everyone touches the ball, good things happen.

Kyrie understands all of that. I don’t know how well they’ll fit, but one training camp will be enough. We should know by Christmas if it’s a promising fit, I think. What I’ll be looking for is something more synergetic than “my turn, your turn” where both of them are engaged when they’re off-ball, rather than resting. It’s obviously Luka’s team, but if I’m being honest I have a little more faith in Kyrie’s understanding of how to do that off-ball thing right now.

[KillerLeft]

Luka can't do it all by himself.  We don't have that many ball handlers.  We have to have somebody like Kyrie (or Brunson) and Luka needs to figure out how to play with said player.  Otherwise its going to be really hard for Luka to win a chip.

As usual, same idea as mine, stated 1,000x better and 10,000x more succinctly.