Trade & FA 2023-24: NOP Will Not Give Ingram an Extension

[JamesConway912]

Wouldn’t a Hendricks-Ayton-frontcourt be a pretty darn good fit? Plenty athletic, Hendricks can shoot the three, Ayton from the elbow, both can catch lobs, both a lot more mobile than your usual PF/C so you don’t have to play drop coverage but when you do they both are capable of blocking shots. I’m intrigued, would be willing to move all of Kleber/Hardaway/Bullock and even Hardy if you have to to get it done (preferably try another way to acquire Ayton though).

Kyrie
Green
Luka
Hendricks
Ayton

6th man: Hardy

Maybe you can eat some more unwanted salary if push comes to shove.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Wouldn’t a Hendricks-Ayton-frontcourt be a pretty darn good fit? Plenty athletic, Hendricks can shoot the three, Ayton from the elbow, both can catch lobs, both a lot more mobile than your usual PF/C so you don’t have to play drop coverage but when you do they both are capable of blocking shots. I’m intrigued, would be willing to move all of Kleber/Hardaway/Bullock and even Hardy if you have to to get it done (preferably try another way to acquire Ayton though).

Kyrie
Green
Luka
Hendricks
Ayton

6th man: Hardy

Maybe you can eat some more unwanted salary if push comes to shove.

I don't see Hendricks available at #10.  Many have him going at #6.

[Jason Terry]

Mavs fans will hate it, but it just makes too much sense:

Utah gets: 10 and Bertans

Dallas gets: 16, 28 and one of Gay/THT/Olynyk

Trade stays open into the new league year to give us the opportunity to turn it into a 3 team deal if we want

This would give us access to the full MLE and the BAE

Full MLE- Naz Reid
BAE- Crowder
16- Lively/Leonard Miller/Coulibaly
28- Clowney/Maxcense Prosper/Cissoko etc

Kyrie/Hardy
Luka/Green
THJ/Bullock
Crowder/Maxi/Clowney
Naz/Lively/Powell

Good young team right there

We would still have the option to package THJ/Bullock/Mcgee etc with 2027 for a TDL upgrade

[HoosierDaddyKid]

Jokic   -   Doncic
Murray   -   Irving
Gordon   -   Reid
Porter Jr   -   Wood
KCP   -   Green
Brown   -   THJ
Green   -   Bullock
Braun   -   Hardy

I think we've somewhat agreed these two 8-man rotations are comparable.  Here's my take on who has an advantage in offensive categories...

Overall Offense - Tie
Scoring - Mavs
Efficiency - Nuggs
Range - Mavs
Jump Shooting - Mavs
Scoring in the Paint - Nuggs
Fast Break - Nuggs
Foul Drawing - Mavs
Isolation - Mavs
Distribution - Mavs
Rebounding - Nuggs




Thoughts?

I don't really see the comps. Dallas is not better than Denver in ball distribution. They have Luka but Murray and Jokic are better than Luka and Kyrie. How are they better at drawing fouls? Both teams do a good job at that.Jump shooting is a wash as well as overall offense. Just think if MPJ wasn't in his shooting slump? This final would have been over. Denver is so deep, they haven't needed him. I really don't see any category the Mavs have a clear cut edge. And where did Reid come from?

[Chicagojk]

I don't really see the comps. Dallas is not better than Denver in ball distribution. They have Luka but Murray and Jokic are better than Luka and Kyrie. How are they better at drawing fouls? Both teams do a good job at that.Jump shooting is a wash as well as overall offense. Just think if MPJ wasn't in his shooting slump?  This final would have been over. Denver is so deep, they haven't needed him. I really don't see any category the Mavs have a clear cut edge. And where did Reid come from?

While I do not agree with the whole premise where your response was directed at, I think there is some truth in the Jokic/Murray vs. Luka/Kyrie.   Jokic/Murray a much better positional fit though.  You also need to live in the present.   Jokic has such a positive force while on the court.  I can't really say the same for Luka this year (while this may be unfair due to the burden he is asked to carry).  While they played well with Jokic on the bench this past game, most games they crater when Jokic is not in the game.   But Luka, at his best, is in the same neighborhood as Jokic.

Murray and Kyrie are comparable talents.   Murray is on the upswing though.  While the last few years of Kyrie are questionable at best.    But could I squint and see Kyrie have the same impact Murray is having in  this playoff run?  Yes, I think I can.

If the Mavs re-sign Kyrie, then they have done the hard part.   Big question, will Kyrie stay sane and healthy?  Beside that though, the type of moves Denver has made needs to be the standard for the Mavs.  Just solid singles and doubles.   Sometimes a single surprises you and you wind up with much more.  But you just need to be disciplined, evaluate talent, be aggressive when available, patient when it is not and make smart move after smart move.   fight for every scrap in deals.   Don't think a second round pick is worthless.   Don't cater in contract negotiations where you overpay by a few million in salary demands..etc.  Every little thing matters.

[Knutsen]

While I do not agree with the whole premise where your response was directed at, I think there is some truth in the Jokic/Murray vs. Luka/Kyrie.   Jokic/Murray a much better positional fit though.  You also need to live in the present.   Jokic has such a positive force while on the court.  I can't really say the same for Luka this year (while this may be unfair due to the burden he is asked to carry).  While they played well with Jokic on the bench this past game, most games they crater when Jokic is not in the game.   But Luka, at his best, is in the same neighborhood as Jokic.

Murray and Kyrie are comparable talents.   Murray is on the upswing though.  While the last few years of Kyrie are questionable at best.    But could I squint and see Kyrie have the same impact Murray is having in  this playoff run?  Yes, I think I can.

If the Mavs re-sign Kyrie, then they have done the hard part.   Big question, will Kyrie stay sane and healthy?  Beside that though, the type of moves Denver has made needs to be the standard for the Mavs.  Just solid singles and doubles.   Sometimes a single surprises you and you wind up with much more.  But you just need to be disciplined, evaluate talent, be aggressive when available, patient when it is not and make smart move after smart move.   fight for every scrap in deals.   Don't think a second round pick is worthless.   Don't cater in contract negotiations where you overpay by a few million in salary demands..etc.  Every little thing matters.

I completely agree. And I do hope that Kyrie can help us to land a few of these singles or doubles, because two superstars give you a chance to win big and because he has the credentials and connections to a lot of guys in the league that a foreign superstar like Luka (or Dirk) can’t have, as stupid as that may sound.

[SwisherPrice]

It's difficult to compare the Mavs and Nuggets in terms of roster-building. Denver's current product is a result of years of developing players and trades. Going back 4-5 years ago when they had good rotational players like Gary Harris, Will Barton, Monte Morris.

Barton/Morris --> Traded for KCP
Harris --> Traded for Aaron Gordon

Since they had Jokic/Murray + a deep roster, they could afford to take a chance on drafting MPJ and be patient with his recovery coming out of college. I remember in that draft, there was a lot of concern about taking MPJ too early since he wouldn't be able to play immediately but once he fell to #14, it was a no-brainer for Denver.

It's just great overall front office work that is reminiscent of the Warriors

[Knutsen]

It's difficult to compare the Mavs and Nuggets in terms of roster-building. Denver's current product is a result of years of developing players and trades. Going back 4-5 years ago when they had good rotational players like Gary Harris, Will Barton, Monte Morris.

Barton/Morris --> Traded for KCP
Harris --> Traded for Aaron Gordon

Since they had Jokic/Murray + a deep roster, they could afford to take a chance on drafting MPJ and be patient with his recovery coming out of college. I remember in that draft, there was a lot of concern about taking MPJ too early since he wouldn't be able to play immediately but once he fell to #14, it was a no-brainer for Denver.

It's just great overall front office work that is reminiscent of the Warriors

The analogy for me would be to draft a talented player with our first round pick and give him 2 years to establish himself as a really good player that outperforms his rookie salary. And secondly, to trade or get rid off our offensive minded players like Hardaway, McGee, Bertans and even Hardy because you need 4 to 5 very good defenders at all positions surrounding Luka and Kyrie. 

Miami in contrast can afford or even need offensive minded guys like Herro, Vincent or Robinson because their top players Butler and Adebayo are very good defenders.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

It's difficult to compare the Mavs and Nuggets in terms of roster-building. Denver's current product is a result of years of developing players and trades. Going back 4-5 years ago when they had good rotational players like Gary Harris, Will Barton, Monte Morris.

Barton/Morris --> Traded for KCP
Harris --> Traded for Aaron Gordon

Since they had Jokic/Murray + a deep roster, they could afford to take a chance on drafting MPJ and be patient with his recovery coming out of college. I remember in that draft, there was a lot of concern about taking MPJ too early since he wouldn't be able to play immediately but once he fell to #14, it was a no-brainer for Denver.

It's just great overall front office work that is reminiscent of the Warriors

I agree somewhat.  What I'm trying to establish is that the Mavs should use the Nuggs as a blueprint in the way of roster, not really HOW the roster was built.  LAL proved you can retool without many assets in a blink of an eye.  I think your point is highly legit when it comes stability and years of playing together.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

OK, if the offense of this 8-man rotation is as ideal as it can get with just one move (Naz), how do we exchange parts to make a defense work without dropping off in offense?

Doncic
Irving
Reid
Wood
Green
THJ
Bullock
Hardy

The most glaring to me is THJ and Wood. What pieces could we get in return for them, advancing the defense, without losing offense?

[HoosierDaddyKid]

While I do not agree with the whole premise where your response was directed at, I think there is some truth in the Jokic/Murray vs. Luka/Kyrie.   Jokic/Murray a much better positional fit though.  You also need to live in the present.   Jokic has such a positive force while on the court.  I can't really say the same for Luka this year (while this may be unfair due to the burden he is asked to carry).  While they played well with Jokic on the bench this past game, most games they crater when Jokic is not in the game.   But Luka, at his best, is in the same neighborhood as Jokic.

Murray and Kyrie are comparable talents.   Murray is on the upswing though.  While the last few years of Kyrie are questionable at best.    But could I squint and see Kyrie have the same impact Murray is having in  this playoff run?  Yes, I think I can.

If the Mavs re-sign Kyrie, then they have done the hard part.   Big question, will Kyrie stay sane and healthy?  Beside that though, the type of moves Denver has made needs to be the standard for the Mavs.  Just solid singles and doubles.   Sometimes a single surprises you and you wind up with much more.  But you just need to be disciplined, evaluate talent, be aggressive when available, patient when it is not and make smart move after smart move.   fight for every scrap in deals.   Don't think a second round pick is worthless.   Don't cater in contract negotiations where you overpay by a few million in salary demands..etc.  Every little thing matters.

That's fair enough JK. I like your posts and mostly agree with you. I just don't think the Dallas braintrust has the wherewithal to build a contender on the fly, which is what they're looking at. Denver has been building towards this culmination for at least 4 years and it was derailed when Murray got injured. It takes time and shrewd and smart decisions. Connelly got the ball rolling, then when he left Booth took over and got them to what looks to be the finish line.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

That's fair enough JK. I like your posts and mostly agree with you. I just don't think the Dallas braintrust has the wherewithal to build a contender on the fly, which is what they're looking at. Denver has been building towards this culmination for at least 4 years and it was derailed when Murray got injured. It takes time and shrewd and smart decisions. Connelly got the ball rolling, then when he left Booth took over and got them to what looks to be the finish line.

You go to war with the army you have.  This FO is our army.

IMO, coaching is different in that they can be pressed upon.  Kidd's leash was WAY too long last year.  His objectives need to be detailed to him, not simply "win".  Making Wood work should have been an objective.  Scheming to make the Luka/Kyrie a tandem within a framework dictated to him should have been an objective.  

This brings me to the purpose of this exercise...  modeling Luka/Kyrie after Jokic/Murray.  THEN building around that.

[Chicagojk]

Shams is reporting Pelicans are exploring moving up to 2 for Scoot. These trades very rarely happen and most are not even true. But Pelicans have the assets if they wanted to move up. It would start with Ingram right? I think I would want Ingram plus something else over Miller, right? But if I am Charlotte, I think I would pick Scoot over Miller to begin with.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

Shams is reporting Pelicans are exploring moving up to 2 for Scoot.  These trades very rarely happen and most are not even true.  But Pelicans have the assets if they wanted to move up.  It would start with Ingram right?  I think I would want Ingram plus something else over Miller, right?  But if I am Charlotte, I think I would pick Scoot over Miller to begin with.

I don't think I give up Ingram a proven talent, for someone who might not even pan out as a pro. That's just me. Now, Zion, that's a different ball of wax. His value is very low now.

[The Jom]

Ingram reminds me of Towelie.

[StepBackJay]

Mavs fans will hate it, but it just makes too much sense:

Utah gets: 10 and Bertans

Dallas gets: 16, 28 and one of Gay/THT/Olynyk

I think Utah will be the first most likely trade-partner assuming Mavs don't get a guy they really want at 10. The most likely trade to me is 16 + another first either 28, or a future first and hopefully dumping Bertans in the process. Kelly Olynyk is pretty solid on an expiring deal that also saves 5 mil in cap.

So my trade would be 10/Bertans for 16/28 (or future first)  + KO.

[SleepingHero]

Shams is reporting Pelicans are exploring moving up to 2 for Scoot.  These trades very rarely happen and most are not even true.  But Pelicans have the assets if they wanted to move up.  It would start with Ingram right?  I think I would want Ingram plus something else over Miller, right?  But if I am Charlotte, I think I would pick Scoot over Miller to begin with.

As soon as I read that, I instantly thought of a Zion trade for #3+Simons.

---

https://twitter.com/thenbacentral/status...10082?s=46&t=Fmdr94oXagcEyy75KJqaFg

[DanSchwartzgan]

Miami after bigger fish than Kyrie (or at least a fish that doesn’t require a S&T).  This is an example of getting your third guy while you still can (before the new CBA kicks in).

From the Athletic:

The Washington Wizards’ new front office leaders and Bradley Beal have a mutual understanding that they intend to work together to find a trade that would send the three-time All-Star guard to a contender if the team elects to reset the organization, league sources tell The Athletic.
It is unclear whether the Wizards will ultimately decide upon a rebuild or if they find an acceptable trade, but sources said both sides are working amicably to find the path forward, with the 2023 NBA Draft looming on June 22. The sources, who were granted anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter, said the Miami Heat are expected to be prominent suitors for Beal if he reaches the market.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

Shams is reporting Pelicans are exploring moving up to 2 for Scoot.  These trades very rarely happen and most are not even true.  But Pelicans have the assets if they wanted to move up.  It would start with Ingram right?  I think I would want Ingram plus something else over Miller, right?  But if I am Charlotte, I think I would pick Scoot over Miller to begin with.

I'm trading Zion way before I'm trading Ingram.

If you're trading Ingram, you might as well start over/rebuild.

[BigDirk41]

I'm trading Zion way before I'm trading Ingram.

If you're trading Ingram, you might as well start over/rebuild.

Unfortunately I don't feel like Zion will ever be a player that can stay healthy. I would move on if I was the Pels while someone will overpay for him.