Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms

[mvossman]

Thank you sir.

For many of the same reasons, I think J. Allen works here.  And, the numbers are interesting.  The deal would be Holmes/Green (much as I hate to say it).  Dallas would be $274k under the tax once McGee is S/W'd.  We'd be at 14 players again with the 2-for-1 (which is why Morris was necessary) and the depth chart works similarly to the way you envisioned it.  

Allen-Lively-Powell
GWill-Maxi- Morris
THJ-  DJJ-   OMP
Luka- Hardy-Curry
Irving-Exum

Cleveland only has 13 players on their roster right now (only 12 with full guarantees), so it appears they are holding a spot for something (like a 2-for-1 incoming deal?).  Allen isn't the PnR roller that Powell or Holmes are, but he makes up for it in rebounding and defense.  Starting THJ probably isn't ideal from a defensive standpoint, but in the post trade era, Irving/Doncic/THJ lineups were +13.3 (124.6/111.3).  Only Bullock (+0.2) and Powell (+7.5) were used in Kyrie/Luka lineups more.  Irving/Doncic/Green lineups were +2.6.  Irving/Doncic/Maxi lineups were +1.0.

If you look at the roster without Green, a lot of the stuff at the end of the bench makes great sense.  Powell is there in case Lively isn't ready by the playoffs.  Morris is there as Maxi insurance.  DJJ and Curry play the same veteran role as Powell with OMP and Hardy.  If the kids are ready, great.  If they aren't, Curry, DJJ and Powell all played real NBA minutes last season.

So, why isn't this done already....the trade restriction on Holmes, which runs out next week.  I really would hate to give up Green, but even I have to admit this is a better roster.  The one hole in the starting lineup is on-ball D, but Exum and DJJ will provide that as they sub in for THJ/Irving and Luka.  Similar to the GWill addition, Allen isn't old by any means...25 or about a year older than Luka.  The youngish core is Allen/Lively/GWill/OMP/Hardy/Luka.  Now, we just need a player like Green who can hit 3's and play on-ball defense and we are set

A few comments:

I think the cost of Allen would be Holmes, Green and the unprotected 27.  Holmes is a negative asset and I don't think Green has near the value of Allen.

I feel like this team has done some of its best work with 5 out lineups, especially in the playoffs, and I was looking forward to seeing the small ball lineups we could put out there with some combination of Maxi/Williams/DJJ, but there is not much room for that on this roster.

I realize that the Luka/Timmy/Kyrie combo had some good numbers in a fairly short sample, but call me skeptical we can get away with starting that backcourt and have a good defense, regardless of how good the frontcourt defense is.  In fact, every potentially plus defender on that roster is effectively a frontcourt player except for a guy who was playing in Europe last year.  And based on my first point, we wont have the assets to address that until next offseason.

I keep coming back to a trade for Allen or Claxton would have made a ton of sense prior to the draft.  But to do it now would be spending all of our assets on two young centers who can't play on the court together.  That just seems like a major misallocation of resources for an organization that does not have a lot of resources to begin with.

[IamDougieFresh]

How much $ does stretch waiving McGee save this year?

[DanSchwartzgan]

How much $ does stretch waiving McGee save this year?

If Morris gets paid for the entire season, We are $76k under the tax without the McGee S/W.  

The S/W is a $3.386m benefit in the current season.  $5.734 - $2.348 = $3.386mm

[MarkAguirreWrathofGod]

So the S/W could be as simple as: we have more flexibility in prospective trades or for a buyout guy who hits the market at some point.. Or of course the idea of an already agreed upon trade. Is that correct?

[DanSchwartzgan]

So the S/W could be as simple as: we have more flexibility in prospective trades or for a buyout guy who hits the market at some point.. Or of course the idea of an already agreed upon trade. Is that correct?

Sure.  We have greater flexibility now and up to the TDL to take on a player in trade.  It could also help in the buyout market where many players move for the minimum.  We have $5.4mm of our MLE left, but only $3.38mm left under the tax.  That can be expanded some if Morris is cut early.

The thing I've pointed out is I think the combination of S/W and Morris signing taking us to 15 players sets us up nicely for a 2-for-1 trade that takes us back to the required 14 players.

[KillerLeft]

Sure.  We have greater flexibility now and up to the TDL to take on a player in trade.  It could also help in the buyout market where many players move for the minimum.  We have $5.4mm of our MLE left, but only $3.38mm left under the tax.  That can be expanded some if Morris is cut early.

The thing I've pointed out is I think the combination of S/W and Morris signing taking us to 15 players sets us up nicely for a 2-for-1 trade that takes us back to the required 14 players.

Totally buy this. 

What I just can't get my head around is the idea that Mark Cuban, aka "Mr. Flexibility" would extend the McGee mistake years into the future by stretching just on the chance they'll find a trade they like. I realize that stretching increases short term flexibility in a way, but in doing so they deny themselves a potentially useful expiring contract next year and sign up for $2.3 million less in potential payroll for multiple years after this situation would've been long resolved. That is a move away from flexibility, to my mind. 

If they already have a trade in mind, I get it. I don't want to be a delusional homer, but I can't shake the suspicion that they did this for a reason. If we find out they did it on a hope and prayer, idk, I think I'm going to be a little alarmed by that.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

A few comments:

I think the cost of Allen would be Holmes, Green and the unprotected 27.  Holmes is a negative asset and I don't think Green has near the value of Allen.

I feel like this team has done some of its best work with 5 out lineups, especially in the playoffs, and I was looking forward to seeing the small ball lineups we could put out there with some combination of Maxi/Williams/DJJ, but there is not much room for that on this roster.

I realize that the Luka/Timmy/Kyrie combo had some good numbers in a fairly short sample, but call me skeptical we can get away with starting that backcourt and have a good defense, regardless of how good the frontcourt defense is.  In fact, every potentially plus defender on that roster is effectively a frontcourt player except for a guy who was playing in Europe last year.  And based on my first point, we wont have the assets to address that until next offseason.

I keep coming back to a trade for Allen or Claxton would have made a ton of sense prior to the draft.  But to do it now would be spending all of our assets on two young centers who can't play on the court together.  That just seems like a major misallocation of resources for an organization that does not have a lot of resources to begin with.

I think J.Allen would cost more than that.  Holmes is worth a negative #24 pick.  So CLE would only be getting J.Green, which I don't think anyone not a DAL fan would agree is fair.

My guess would be THJ, J.Green, and the 27FRP.  IMO, that's too much, unless resigning J.Green doesn't fit into our ongoing model of building around 2 Max players.

If J.Green is too expensive, J.Allen is perfect.  3yrs at $20m/per.  TDL 2026 you have an expiring 28yo J.Allen and a 22yo Lively with 2 years left on his rookie contract.  That's tremendous value, if Lively is ready to be a starter.  You either trade Lively or J.Allen for the perfect need at that time.  This makes the 2027 rather worthless to us in that we get J.Allen for at least 2.5 years and have a better asset (either Lively or J.Allen trade) than the 27FRP.  Losing J.Green hurts tho.

[Scott41theMavs]

I think J.Allen would cost more than that.  Holmes is worth a negative #24 pick.  So CLE would only be getting J.Green, which I don't think anyone not a DAL fan would agree is fair.

My guess would be THJ, J.Green, and the 27FRP.  IMO, that's too much, unless resigning J.Green doesn't fit into our ongoing model of building around 2 Max players.

If J.Green is too expensive, J.Allen is perfect.  3yrs at $20m/per.  TDL 2026 you have an expiring 28yo J.Allen and a 22yo Lively with 2 years left on his rookie contract.  That's tremendous value, if Lively is ready to be a starter.  You either trade Lively or J.Allen for the perfect need at that time.  This makes the 2027 rather worthless to us in that we get J.Allen for at least 2.5 years and have a better asset (either Lively or J.Allen trade) than the 27FRP.  Losing J.Green hurts tho.

The Mavs have sort of backed themselves into a corner with Josh Green. Losing out on Thybulle means that he's the only decent perimeter defender on roster aside from Exum, whom we can only hope will crack the 8-man. We have several decent frontcourt defenders - GW, OMax, Maxi, Lively, DJJ. Anything that trades Josh away for a center creates problems, imho, unless the Mavs have genuine hopes that OMax is soooo good that he'll crack the starting lineup (!) by the end of the year and can defend on-ball.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

The Mavs have sort of backed themselves into a corner with Josh Green. Losing out on Thybulle means that he's the only decent perimeter defender on roster aside from Exum, whom we can only hope will crack the 8-man. We have several decent frontcourt defenders - GW, OMax, Maxi, Lively, DJJ. Anything that trades Josh away for a center creates problems, imho, unless the Mavs have genuine hopes that OMax is soooo good that he'll crack the starting lineup (!) by the end of the year and can defend on-ball.

I couldn't agree more.  IMO, OMax has to shoot 3pt% at least 32% to be in the 8-man rotation.  Defensively can OMax be an on-ball defender?  He's almost the identical size as OG.

Signing J.Green at 4yrs/$20m per (which seems about right), would that be against our cap this year?  If so, we're like $17m over the first apron.

[Reunion Mav]

No. His salary for this year is set in stone.

[IamDougieFresh]

I heard Holmes can be traded next week. Get your popcorn ready.



Dončić - Exum - Caruso
Irving - Hardy - Curry
Green - Jones Jr. - Wainwright
Williams - Prosper - Morris
Ayton - Bitadze - Powell

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

I heard Holmes can be traded next week. Get your popcorn ready.



Dončić - Exum - Caruso
Irving - Hardy - Curry
Green - Jones Jr. - Wainwright
Williams - Prosper - Morris
Ayton - Bitadze - Powell

Giving up Lively, I'd want J.Allen, not Ayton.

Your suggestion of Caruso is interesting.  If J.Green is deemed too expensive to resign, Caruso would be ideal.

[chaparral]

I heard Holmes can be traded next week. Get your popcorn ready.



Dončić - Exum - Caruso
Irving - Hardy - Curry
Green - Jones Jr. - Wainwright
Williams - Prosper - Morris
Ayton - Bitadze - Powell

Are you saying that THJ and Maxi didn't know their roles last season either?  And that Kidd didn't want the team to draft Lively?

[chaparral]

He we go already...

"Kyrie Gonna Request A Trade" - NBA Fans Think Mark Cuban's Recent Comments About Luka Doncic Will Not Sit Well With Kyrie Irving

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/kyr...d=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=77bbe9c25f2540299ac3b121fa874546&ei=9

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Are you saying that THJ and Maxi didn't know their roles last season either?  And that Kidd didn't want the team to draft Lively?

Ya, we're not trading Lively, unless something is known only by the FO driving that decision.

Maxi played only 19% of the minutes available last year.  His availability is definitely on the decline.  Eventually I see OMax taking Maxi's role of our best switching defender, but he has to develop an outside shot of some sort to stay on the court.  I'm talking like 32%3pt.

IMO, THJ's biggest value on this roster is a 3rd player who can give you 20pts on any night that you ask that of him.  I think Hardy can get there, but not with the consistency of THJ yet.

---

He we go already...

"Kyrie Gonna Request A Trade" - NBA Fans Think Mark Cuban's Recent Comments About Luka Doncic Will Not Sit Well With Kyrie Irving

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/kyr...d=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=77bbe9c25f2540299ac3b121fa874546&ei=9

Hyperbole, noise.  That article is ridiculous.

Cuban is spot on.  Kyrie tried to blend with Luka exceptionally well after the trade.  It was Kidd (by not retooling the offense to accommodate both Kyrie and Luka) and possibly Luka (if he refused to play off the ball) who failed.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

I would only suggest this if resigning J.Green breaks our financial model with Luka/Kyrie

DAL - J.Allen, Caruso
CLE - THJ, J.Green, 25SRP, 28SRP
CHI - 27FRP

Kyrie, Exum
Caruso, Hardy, Curry
Luka, DJJ, OMax
G.Williams, Maxi, Morris
J.Allen, Powell, Lively, Holmes

I really love that roster.  3 ball handling starters (huge flexibility in who comes out first, with Exum as your 4th).  3 defensive stud starters.  Hardy becomes your 3rd scorer.

[mvossman]

He we go already...

"Kyrie Gonna Request A Trade" - NBA Fans Think Mark Cuban's Recent Comments About Luka Doncic Will Not Sit Well With Kyrie Irving

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/kyr...d=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=77bbe9c25f2540299ac3b121fa874546&ei=9

I would like Cuban to keep his mouth shut as much as the next guy, but I'm not really worried about what a couple of fans on Twitter say.

[ItsGoTime]

The Dougie trade got me to thinking. So, we're currently $10.5M under the 1st apron (according to sportrac). How much outgoing salary do we have to give to utilize that amount of immediate cap space relief and how much value does it return? Does THJ, Maxi and Holmes allow for that, or do we have to add more salary (or is that enough salary to make a difference on a team's cap sheet).

Those 3 together are $40.8M and after reading to remind myself on the matching rules 125% + $250K gives us $10.4M in cap relief. HMMMMMM. Unless my math is wrong or my rules are screwed up, that looks pretty suspiciously close to our under Apron 1 number. I'll spend some time looking at what we could return with that amount of salary, but I leave this posts thoughts for you to read what you want of the possible coincidence.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Those 3 together are $40.8M and after reading to remind myself on the matching rules 125% + $250K gives us $10.4M in cap relief. HMMMMMM. Unless my math is wrong or my rules are screwed up, that looks pretty suspiciously close to our under Apron 1 number. I'll spend some time looking at what we could return with that amount of salary, but I leave this posts thoughts for you to read what you want of the possible coincidence.

From the CBA thread:

• Up to $7.5 million in outgoing salary can bring back 200 percent plus $250,000
  
• $7,500,001 to $29 million will be padded by a flat $7.5 million
  
• Above $29 million will be limited to 125 percent plus $250,000
  

[omahen]

Everything here is of course total fiction. I would do that Irving deal immediately. Not the biggest Herro fan, but at least the move would fit really well with other things Mavs did this summer.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1008...t-contract