Non Knee-Jerk Takes

[SatnamSingh]

However:

1. It is a fact that Mavs were giving up best player in the deal. As others have pointed out, Dinwiddie and Bertans both carry significant injury risk with them. Even before the trade, some analysts have pointed at Bertans as worst contract in the league. Dinwiddie contract is no pearl either and they are both on a down year. So Mavs were trading best player with similar money owed to a team, that is desperate for relevance (not tanking team). How well will those players perform for Dallas is basically irrelevant in this discussion, as is future flexibility they allegedly provide. Fact is, their trade value at this moment is very low. Based on all this, Mavs didn't get enough in return in this deal. The goal of trading KP was executed very poorly.

Nice summation of my problem with the deal.

After reading and listening to a lot of people in the last day, it seems people are placing some king of symbolic value on moving on from KP.  Like it signals a new direction for the franchise and we dont really care what the return was but we had to address the elephant in the room.  Maybe there is something to that idea that I'm not giving enough credit to.

Still seems like poor execution and asset management to me.

[KillerLeft]

I don't mind KP being traded. Looks like this was their primary goal. I also don't mind who he got traded for. 

However:

1. It is a fact that Mavs were giving up best player in the deal. As others have pointed out, Dinwiddie and Bertans both carry significant injury risk with them. Even before the trade, some analysts have pointed at Bertans as worst contract in the league. Dinwiddie contract is no pearl either and they are both on a down year. So Mavs were trading best player with similar money owed to a team, that is desperate for relevance (not tanking team). How well will those players perform for Dallas is basically irrelevant in this discussion, as is future flexibility they allegedly provide. Fact is, their trade value at this moment is very low. Based on all this, Mavs didn't get enough in return in this deal. The goal of trading KP was executed very poorly.

2. I am extremely concerned what this means for Brunson and true Mavs intentions regarding him. 

3. Roster construction will be just awful. Mavs will have three bench players paid over 15 million each. Bench player paid over 15 million is a bad contract in its very definition. They are also not some high upside players, they are all vets near 30 year old. I can agree that flexibility has increased, but it remains to be seen if Mavs will be able to take advantage of it. We have years of proof where good contracts of the likes of Maxi, Powell and similar generated zero possibility for upgrades.

This, to me, is a great post. 

I don't agree with every word of it, but I think most of it is right on the money. And, more to the point, you can tell when reading that a lot of thinking has been done before and during the writing of it. You can see how the thought process got the writer to these conclusions, and how the points fit together. Posts like this one make me re-examine some of the things I think. 

Best of all, it doesn't come off like it's defensive, or directed at anyone here. It's literally just @"omahen"'s carefully considered (and valuable) take on the situation. 

The board atmosphere has, imo, not been super fun for the past 24 hours or so. We don't all like the deal, I get it. More accurately, there's only 1-2 people (I can only think of @"Kammrath" and @"audiosway") who DO like it. There are 5-10 more of us who have attempted to look for positives in a bad situation, but we hate the situation just as much as the rest of you do. 

Speaking for myself, I have been feeling the way you all feel today almost nonstop since before LAST SEASON'S trade deadline, when it first dawned on me that this kind of ending to the Porzingis era was likely (would love to have been wrong). Every day since then, when we all had to try to pretend it was going to fine, THAT was terrible. It's over now, and while I DO NOT like the trade, I can find a little peace in the idea that the worst of it is finally behind us and there's now a chance of things getting better (though that's far from a guarantee - trust me, I understand that). 

I can totally see how those who actually thought KP had value around the league and was valued by the Mavericks were totally blindsided by this. He didn't, and he wasn't. I'm not meaning to criticize those people, either, because during his best moments this season, I admit he was slowly starting to win me back to a more hopeful frame of mind about his chances here. Hell, I was even starting to imagine that he might be worth a little something in a trade (wrong). I get how crushing this must be for some of us. 

I just wish we could be pissed about something the team does without flooding the community with negativity, or at least without turning on each other. It's not even about specific people, either (although I do think some are more predisposed to not approving of team choices than others, regardless of what those choices are). It's about the people who are pissed being even more pissed when they see that others are not pissed. I have done it. We've all done it. Being on this side of it today, I've got to say I think (just my opinion, not an "official" MavsBoard policy or anything) we can do better with that.

---

After reading and listening to a lot of people in the last day, it seems people are placing some king of symbolic value on moving on from KP.  Like it signals a new direction for the franchise and we dont really care what the return was but we had to address the elephant in the room.  Maybe there is something to that idea that I'm not giving enough credit to.

Still seems like poor execution and asset management to me.

I would say that they do care about the return, but maybe not as much as they care about what you're calling "symbolic value"...which is a great way of wording it, and pretty close to accurate. Only, I think there is actually quite a bit of tangible value mixed in with the symbolic value, personally. 

But yeah, you are zeroing in on why some of us aren't freaking out, even if we're not super excited about the deal.

[fifteenth]

@"Jommybone", this is a really great thread! You've inspired some of he best posts on the topic (including your own), and the great posts include several different views of the trade. Just wanted to say thanks for the thread because I've enjoyed reading it so much. And thanks to everyone for taking the OP seriously and coming up with some great posts!

[SwisherPrice]

KP wasn't the answer and his value was not very high. It's debatable if Dinwiddie and Bertans will be the answer either but at least it is worth a try for something different. If it doesn't work out then I think it could be easier to move them at some point in the future than a 7'3" finesse big man with durability concerns. Bubble KP was a fluke...glad I don't have to hear about that anymore. 

From his perspective, he should be happy too. I think he always preferred playing on the east coast for the media spotlight and he will get that again in DC.

[hakeemfaan]

knee-jerk is relative, no? I spent an hour thinking about it, a couple of hours sifting through other threads, and maybe 20 mins actually writing the post. That’s knee-jerk level for making a career change, sure. But for a post on an internet discussion board?

Your disagreement is welcome. But no, that post isn’t my idea of a knee-jerk reaction.

But you took the majority of your opinions on that post from posters who posted their opinions on why the trade was good within 5 mins of the trade just like those who disagreed with that trade. Why is one side better than the other?  

Plus waiting 24 hrs gives you more insight that the Mavs did the right thing?

If you really don’t want to knee jerk then time is the only answer. As mentioned many who are happy today that KP was gone and saying the real mistake was giving up 2 FRPs for KP were the same folks who were trying to convince me when the trade happened that it was not a big deal when Inhad disagreed with that.

[hakeemfaan]

@"Jommybone", this is a really great thread! You've inspired some of he best posts on the topic (including your own), and the great posts include several different views of the trade. Just wanted to say thanks for the thread because I've enjoyed reading it so much. And thanks to everyone for taking the OP seriously and coming up with some great posts!

I would disagree with fif on this. If each of us just want to start our own thread saying this is a non knee jerk reaction thread and then spam the board with our own views that is not the best approach. I thought the original thread was top notch too whether I agreed or disagreed with the views posted.  I took the time to read each opinion carefully because people had invested their time in it.  I felt it was a bit insulting for OP to say that he didn’t want to wade into those and then started another thread where more of the same opinions abound. 

You are a mod. If this is the way you want each of us to go that’s fine.

[KillerLeft]

If each of us just want to start our own thread saying this is a non knee jerk reaction thread and then spam the board with our own views that is not the best approach.

I'm not disagreeing with your thoughts on this, but I think you're misinterpreting Jommy, somewhat. 

I think you're taking the term "knee-jerk" as if it's a slight to your side of the argument, and to you personally, by extension. I don't think that's the case at all (could be wrong). I think the term was used largely humorously, as a "cool" way of saying "let's get some more thought out thoughts about this." 

I agree with you that there were many good posts in the original thread, but I also know that many readers find it tiresome to keep up with the super-threads and would prefer conversations like this to be spread out into smaller, shorter ones. I suspect that was tied into Jommy's motivation here, too. 

And not to sound like a broken record, but I feel like it's possible to hate a move, and I mean really LOATHE it, without trying to make everyone here as miserable as possible (not that you would do that, Hakeem). I think that's playing into Jommy's use of the "knee-jerk," but not because he disagrees with the POV being expressed. I think it's more about how it's being expressed. 

Your posts are always awesome, even when I disagree with every word (which is very rare). I doubt anyone would ever accuse you of knee-jerking.

[fifteenth]

I would disagree with fif on this. If each of us just want to start our own thread saying this is a non knee jerk reaction thread and then spam the board with our own views that is not the best approach. I thought the original thread was top notch too whether I agreed or disagreed with the views posted.  I took the time to read each opinion carefully because people had invested their time in it.  I felt it was a bit insulting for OP to say that he didn’t want to wade into those and then started another thread where more of the same opinions abound. 

You are a mod. If this is the way you want each of us to go that’s fine.

Oh, hf, I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. I love the other thread too. I was locked in to it. I read every post. I tried to contribute a little. But that thread was a fast paced, immediate reaction, in the moment conversation. And I think a fast paced, immediate reaction, in the moment conversation is awesome! 

But I think @"Jommybone" was just going for something different. He was asking for folks to give some longer takes after stewing on the thing for a bit. And the result was some really great posts. 

Here's the deal, there is room for both here. I think anyone on the forum should be willing to create their own topic. We don't always have to stick to the mega threads. And the one off topic threads aren't spam!! And you know what, if the forum doesn't get inspired by a one-off thread, then that thread falls off the edge of the forum pretty quickly. 

In conclusion, hf, I loved the original, in the moment thread, and I really like @"Jommybone"'s one off thread as well.

Also, LOL, but man, if folks are going to keep throwing me being a mod in my face then I'm going to have to step down. You'd make a great mod hf!! You can have my spot. I mean, seriously, I think I've only stepped in and done mod like things in like 2 or 3 situations in the years we've been doing this. 

Anyway, love ya pal, and sorry if you thought I was somehow against the original thread. I'm not.

[U_L]

The trade - as it is, is a two-for one in terms of overpaid, underperforming pieces.  Whether it ends up good or bad on the court depends on whether KP, Dinwiddie, and/or Bertans perform better than they have in recent history.  If they all continue to play (or sit) as they have been, then the move is completely lateral on the court, and evaluation comes down to whether the Mavs can improve by moving 1 or 2 ill-fitting pieces better than they did by moving the 1 bigger ill-fitting piece.  I, personally, don't have faith that they (Cuban) can because I've watched them (Cuban) put together only one good deal (Trae Young for Luka) over the past decade.  The only time I've seen them put together a championship level supporting cast was when they did it on accident, and they immediately tore it down thinking they could just do it again.  (Sorry, that's a decade long knee-jerk).  I do think that, on paper, improvement should be easier from the position they are now in, I just don't trust them to pull it off.


The content and timing of the trade do raise a couple of questions of interest.  
1) We saw a tweet or two late in the process that suggested the Mavs were unwilling to trade DFS or Brunson.  It would be so good to see the kinds of trades they turned down.  I wonder if they made that decision late, and then were limited on what they could consider for KP alone.  
2) If Dinwiddie really was someone Cuban wanted years ago, and if Brunson and DFS were valued to the point of nixing a package trade for a potentially better player (Sabonis, Turner, McCollum, Simmons...), does that mean Cuban is still the GM, and is he overvaluing his own 2nd tier players?

[Jommybone]

I would disagree with fif on this. If each of us just want to start our own thread saying this is a non knee jerk reaction thread and then spam the board with our own views that is not the best approach. I thought the original thread was top notch too whether I agreed or disagreed with the views posted.  I took the time to read each opinion carefully because people had invested their time in it.  I felt it was a bit insulting for OP to say that he didn’t want to wade into those and then started another thread where more of the same opinions abound. 

You are a mod. If this is the way you want each of us to go that’s fine.

Hakeem, can I assume your username is a reference to the great Olajuwon? What an incredible center he was! I so wish Kristaps had one quarter of his ability, heart, or trade value. 

Perhaps my attempt at a thoughtful take failed. Perhaps there was nothing even remotely original in it. Perhaps I didn’t pick the right words to communicate it. Perhaps it is optimistic even though it seems pessimistic to me. I dunno. If so, my bad. 

Re the thread, my point in trying to create something different was this: When I heard about the trade, my reaction was WTF!!! I may even have posted something like WTF!!! in another thread. My personal view is that a reaction like that isn’t very interesting to read, and the negativity that emanates from a thread full of that makes me feel shitty. I don’t come to this board to feel shitty. So at some point, I quit reading that thread.

Upon reflection, and after a couple of hours, WTF turned into something more like, Wow, that’s all that KP is worth? I had him pegged at approximately zero, not negative 250 (on a scale from 1-10). And I assumed the trade evidenced that my opinion was wrong, not that the Mavs chose such a sucky return. I also concluded that it meant the Mavs had been lying to us since summer about committing to and believing in KP. Instead, they were just trying to rehab his trade value. Right or wrong, that was my conclusion. Many here saw through the bullshit from the beginning. I didn’t swallow it hook, line and sinker. But I believed it was at least somewhat likely that they believed what they were saying. So the trade for junk caused me to rethink a whole lot. 

I also didn’t believe “wow, I’ve been an idiot” would be a very interesting post. So I didn’t want to stop there either. And I didn’t really want to read other people’s posts saying, “wow, you’re an idiot,” or “wow, I’m an idiot too.” This board has better and more interesting things to say. So I thought I might get a better read by asking for something more than one-sentence reactions. That’s all I was trying to accomplish. 

As to my take, the thing that seemed possibly original to me was the conclusion that this mistake was made 3 years ago. Not yesterday. Not last summer. 3 years ago. At a time when me and most of this board were celebrating the decision. Maybe that take is wrong. Or uninteresting. But it isn’t knee-jerk. At least not in the sense of being obvious and thought of in seconds.

[Kammrath]

"If you have to eat a turd, don't nibble" - famous philosopher

What We Gave Up

Thanks for this thread.  I had meetings and didn't see the news until well after it happened.  My initial reaction was shock at how low KP's value had fallen.  We've contemplated deals with Washington and taking these and other bad contracts.  But those ideas always began with also getting Avdija or Rui or a pick or something.  Washington had some expiring players and we didn't get those either.  Even now, I don't count myself angry or pleased.  Just a little numb from the shock.

I am in the camp of being glad we no longer have to cater to KP's desire for certain kinds of touches.  He is antithetical to the way we run our O.  Maybe you make those concessions to a superstar center who can create for himself, but KP isn't one of those (let the Jokic watch begin...at least until he extends this summer).

I think we've probably reduced our near-term ceiling and raised our near-term floor.  The lower ceiling coming from missing an idealized KP that hasn't existed very often (he's net negative in On Minus Off the last two seasons despite his good advanced stats this year).  The floor raised because we actually have bodies on the floor rather than in rehab.  All in all, it was time to eat the turd or rip the band-aid off or however you want to say it.  It is just shocking still that a player with a LEBRON of 4.07 didn't bring more than this.


What We Gained

I'm not going to pretend I hate Bertans and Dinwiddie.  I spoke positively about them in recent posts.  For context, the Dinwiddie posts assumed a swap for THJ and the Bertans posts assumed he was part of the price for getting other things (Avdija and the Wiz 2023 pick would have been nice).

If Brunson is going to start, we need someone to run the second unit.  You could do a lot worse than Dinwiddie for this role.  He was a near all-star in 19/20 carrying a rag-tag bunch of nothings to the playoffs.  The O in Brooklyn always worked well despite his lack of a three point shot.  He is very much a down hill "get to the basket" PG which is exactly what Kidd has Luka and JB doing.  Everyone is a little hindered coming off an ACL.  But, there is upside here compared to his current stats in Washington.  If he will accept his role, I have absolutely no problem having SD as a high usage guy running out there with Maxi, Bertans, Green and one of the starters (probably a defensive wing).

I also said positive things about Bertans.  I doubt he forgot how to shoot over the summer.  I envisioned him off the bench spreading the floor next to Powell's rim running.  Now, Powell is a starter and Maxi isn't much of a rim runner.  I still think it can work.  Everyone knows Bertans doesn't play D (so maybe being next to Maxi isn't so bad).  Yet, he tends to be a positive net contributor to winning over his history.  The On Minus Off's the three years prior to this one have been +10.6, +7.9 and +6.4.  The O ratings when he was on the floor were crazy good.  I don't mind having him in this role either.  I'd just feel better if we got something else of value in the deal.


Where We Go From Here

Well, we better hope the recent excellent play we've been getting from Powell continues (he was +13 last night against a center who easily overpowers him in the paint).  As I pointed out recently, he's had a ton of double digit plus games against playoff teams in the past six weeks.  That was kind of fun when it was optional and KP was returning any day.  Now, it is a necessity.  

I assume we'll continue with the current starting five and bring Maxi off the bench.  He HAS TO STAY HEALTHY.  His role as backup to both Powell and DFS at C and PF is critical.  Chriss isn't ready for prime time yet.  Bertans and SD will ease the minutes burden some (DFS was over 40 and Luka was almost 40 last night).  I could see Maxi starting and Bertans off the bench, but we don't really have a viable alternative at center besides DP and Maxi (so they probably share most of the minutes at C).

The bench then is Maxi/Bertans/Green/Dinwiddie playing with a starter until THJ returns and likely takes minutes from Green.  I'm pleased there are still developmental minutes for Green.  We have a fairly obvious top 10 with everyone healthy and lots of ways to mix and match.  I'd feel much better if we had another viable PNR big like Holmes, but the way we run things, bigs aren't the only ones setting picks and we don't always play for the roll (looking forward to the Luka/Bertans pick and pop...how do you stop that?).

I still think we will win a lot of regular season games and will be favored in the first round.  The issue is what happens when we see Phoenix or GS in the second round.  We can take Ayton away, but it requires helping off of a really good player.  We are a year away from losing DP and Maxi in free agency.  They will be 32 and 31 the summer of 23.  I think job number one this summer is to get some help there in the middle.  We may find that THJ isn't needed any more and maybe we trade him and 22 and something else for a big (From a scheme standpoint, I'm curious if we want a shot blocker occupying the paint or a mobile guy who switches well).  

While it is true that it may be easier to deal two smaller bad contracts than one monstrous bad contract, it is still difficult to see an assets based path to a second star unless that second star forces their way here.  We won't have the full MLE to play with, so player(s) plus pick(s) is the path to improvement and I'm not sure we could realistically trade for a second star given those assets.  I'll be surprised if we do much more than just fringe improvements.

This is how I see the roster currently.  No gaping holes, but still short of a second guy you have to game plan for.  This starting group has been successful lately (but probably doesn't frighten a top four seed).  I do think the bench will be MUCH better.

Powell/Maxi
DFS/Bertans
Bullock/Green (THJ)
Brunson/Dinwiddie
Luka/Dinwiddie

This is such a fantastic post. Thank you for this!

I too assumed that KP's value was higher. I was surprised and "shocked" in the initial minutes that the Mavs didn't get Advija or a 1st (what I had always assumed you could get when trading him for Bertans). The reality just had to set in for me that KP's value was lower than I had thought. But it won't get higher and so now was the time.

Side note: I think the LEBRON metric is way off here. It has him 9th. RAPTOR has him 129th. RAPTOR is clearly the more accurate, at least with KP. 

I really think DB is going to accomplish the most important thing that KP was giving and be BETTER at it: SPACE. Luka needs space and DB will provide that and I think it will be better than KP, by quite a bit. KP is shooting under 30% from three, which is significantly worse than DB who is having his worst season by far.

So many people wanted Kemba over the years and I think SD will accomplish what people wanted there while being a much bigger body. People wanted another creator? Here you go.

I am interested to see how Nico values the center position moving forward. Just fill it with guys like Chriss? Or aim for a Gobert/Jokic? 


My final word:

KP was never a guy you had to gameplan for the way it was hoped. He needed to be moved. Keep looking for that guy, but moving off KP will help that in the long run IMO.

[Jommybone]

Wow, there’s some real optimism here over the new guys. I can’t get on board with that. But I will happily cheer for being wrong about them. Being wrong is one of my specialties.

[DanSchwartzgan]

This is such a fantastic post. Thank you for this!

Thanks.  

It is difficult to find national guys saying anything positive about this, but I found one.  The NBA Podcast does once they get past all the Harden/Simmons stuff.  Not praise, but not hating it is as bad as the Twitter-world seems to.  Both guys have a substantial opportunity to rehab their value.  Basically two teams trading distressed assets and hoping they can do better with what they got.

Bertans had a really bad case of Covid last year which hurt him and didn’t have much of a role this year with all the changes and younger guys they are trying to bring along.  So, there is some upside there compared to recent performance.  They said something similar to you….80% of what you wanted from KP (floor spacing), for half the cost (obviously you aren’t getting any rim protection, but he probably slots next to Maxi in most of his minutes)

They also saw some upside to SD.  They like the fit with Luka much better than the fit with Beal.  Probably 15/5 guy with some cutting and midrange and getting to the line.  Beal doesn’t “bend defenses” like Luka does.  Not a star by any means, but two creators at all times is a good thing given the fact other players on this team can’t create for themselves (neither could KP).

Note, they didn’t say whether Dallas got enough for KP or not.  They were mainly talking about how they saw the two players fitting here and why we might have wanted them.

Some things I’ll be looking for.  In Brooklyn SD created 83% of his two pointers.  28% were taken from 0-3 feet and his FG% on those was .620.  This year it is only 15% of his shots and he’s shooting .573.  Need to see him getting to the basket more and be more successful as he is doing it.  For Bertans, it is MPG (which I think leads to better shooting percentages).  As bad as his 3 point shooting has been this year, he’s still .571 from the corners (which means he’s had an even bigger drop off from everywhere else).  His minutes have been crazy sporadic this season, but when he’s played 20 minutes or more, he’s been fine.  I looked back over the prior four seasons and similar pattern.  He’s a rhythm guy and needs PT to get that rhythm.

[audiosway]

Wow, there’s some real optimism here over the new guys. I can’t get on board with that. But I will happily cheer for being wrong about them. Being wrong is one of my specialties.

I can't say I'm optimistic about the guys coming in. I don't think they will suck. They could round into some good rotation pieces that can be moved later. I do think that their time in Washington isn't a good indicator of what the Mavs are getting. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kidd play at times with Maxi at the 5, DFS the 4, then have a 3 guard lineup like they did with Kidd, Jet, and Barea.

That said, I never wanted KP to begin with. I tried to be ok with it. He was too needy and injury prone for me. I also never fully bought into the unicorn bit. That's why I'm not at all surprised that they couldn't get much in return for him. If anything I think Kidd boosted his value in the first half of the season. (As sad as that is)

I personally feel that this trade is just setting up further trades in the offseason or the next deadline. This is just a stepping stone. People likely thought the Mavs would get more because of Westbrook and CP3 getting moved for pretty good pieces on those horrible contracts. However, KP isn't one of those guys. Up to this point he was all about potential. At 26 he is what he is. He is in his prime and has not shown himself to be a difference maker like that. That's why this was his value.

[KillerLeft]

That said, I never wanted KP to begin with. I tried to be ok with it. He was too needy and injury prone for me. I also never fully bought into the unicorn bit.

Wow, really???

Respect for this, if true. I bought in hook, line and sinker on that one. I thought the day of the trade was the beginning of a dynasty.

[Hypermav]

I moved off sunken KP island to nearby Bertans Beach. Which is ironically still Latvian territory.  I also bought some Dincoin today. 

I don't think I will unpack yet...

[Kammrath]

For Bertans, it is MPG (which I think leads to better shooting percentages).  As bad as his 3 point shooting has been this year, he’s still .571 from the corners (which means he’s had an even bigger drop off from everywhere else).  His minutes have been crazy sporadic this season, but when he’s played 20 minutes or more, he’s been fine.  I looked back over the prior four seasons and similar pattern.  He’s a rhythm guy and needs PT to get that rhythm.

Another fantastic post. Thanks for bringing all the thoughts and info.

I don't know if you missed it in the bigger thread with all the reactions, but I was making that same point about DB. He needs minutes to be effective. If you give him minutes he WILL produce. If you give him inconsistent and low minutes, he will likely suck. 

The rim protection will be the big thing missed in all this. But I am curious how much of a premium Kidd's D really puts on that. It seems he cares more about aggressive rotations and deflections than actual rim protection. 

I am also hoping SD post-ACL can get back to the penetration he had before. And he needs to spend some concerted time on his spot up game. There is some hope when you look at the numbers there.

[Kammrath]

I also never fully bought into the unicorn bit. That's why I'm not at all surprised that they couldn't get much in return for him. If anything I think Kidd boosted his value in the first half of the season. (As sad as that is)

I personally feel that this trade is just setting up further trades in the offseason or the next deadline. This is just a stepping stone. People likely thought the Mavs would get more because of Westbrook and CP3 getting moved for pretty good pieces on those horrible contracts. However, KP isn't one of those guys. Up to this point he was all about potential. At 26 he is what he is. He is in his prime and has not shown himself to be a difference maker like that. That's why this was his value.

I think KP is one of those players (in large part because of the NYK hype machine) that has a stark and huge difference in value/perception between NBA folks on one side and media/fans on the other. Media and fans massively over-value KP (even now IMO). I think the NBA for awhile has had a much more sober view of him, much like you.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Another fantastic post. Thanks for bringing all the thoughts and info.

I don't know if you missed it in the bigger thread with all the reactions, but I was making that same point about DB. He needs minutes to be effective. If you give him minutes he WILL produce. If you give him inconsistent and low minutes, he will likely suck. 

The rim protection will be the big thing missed in all this. But I am curious how much of a premium Kidd's D really puts on that. It seems he cares more about aggressive rotations and deflections than actual rim protection. 

I only got to page 7 and stopped.  I did start up again today in the mid 20’s, but didn’t see that.  Great minds?

As to rim protection (super small sample size alert).  From 1/1 until last night, Dallas is 4th in the NBA in defensive FG%.  There is a segment where Powell started and KP was out from 1/1-1/14.  We were second in that period w/o KP.  There was a segment from 1/30-2/11 where KP was also out.  We were 7th during that period of time.

During the two weeks in the middle when KP was playing we were 9th.  We had some stinkers in all three segments.  THe NYK loss was in the first segment.  THe GSW loss was in the middle segment (with KP) and the Orlando and OKC losses were in the last segment.  

Interestingly, in games where Powell has started and KP didn’t play, the team is 10-3.  So, KP’s brand of rim protection doesn’t appear to be a necessary element.  Seven of those 10 wins have come against playoff teams and Powell was a net positive in all seven of those games.

[Kammrath]

So, KP’s brand of rim protection doesn’t appear to be a necessary element

Thanks for the research. When I paused and thought about it intuitively, that is where my gut was leading me. I enjoyed watching KP get some swats, but I never felt like the defense had a huge dropoff without it. 

It will be interesting if Nico/Kidd even try to bring in "shot blocking" in the future.