Coaching and Carlisle - Mavs X and O

[mavsluvr]

That was Shawn Marion, who subsequently expressed regret about making the remark.

Considering the circumstances, I think it's okay that the team doesn't have a fixed rotation at this point. Agree that tinkering is in Carlisle's DNA, and that it would indeed be fun to be a fly on the wall!

He said at the end of the 2009/2010 season while the Mavs were trying to figure out how to integrate the team with it's new players. I went ballistic after the loss to the Spurs in the playoffs and said that it was time for the team to start over with Dirk and Roddy B, sell all vests via trade, and begin a youth movement. Sure am glad I wasn't the GM!!!!!

LOL, I remember that well. Roddy B fever messed with our heads.

[Fuerza1]

I give RC a lot of leeway, but Luka only averaging 6 4th-quarter minutes per game is mind boggling.

Luka ranks 124th in the NBA in 4Q minutes: https://twitter.com/johnfinkdesign/statu...1298418688

Mavs have a top 5 NBA player, who's proven to be clutch yet plays so little (relative to other stars) in the most important quarter? 

Carlisle keeps trying to reinvent the wheel; time to go back to the basics. 

[ClutchDirk]

The roster is not that new

This mix of players hasn't played together before. Curry hasn't played with Luka or KP. Luka and KP haven't played together. No one has played with the combo of Luka and KP. Powell, Maxi, DFS, Curry and THJ are vets, but they're certainly not older, established vets, and none of them have played with this mix of players. Maxi came to the NBA older than a typical rookie. He's still young as far as NBA experience goes. Powell, DFS and Curry were all players who sat at the end of benches. Curry spent time in the G-League. None of them are very experienced considering their NBA experience. The obvious team leader, Luka, is 20 years old and in his second NBA season, yet he's leading a team. The second star is coming off almost a two year layoff and is in a completely different situation. This is a new team.

https://media.giphy.com/media/J5jmQF8IwNS6Y/giphy.gif

[fifteenth]

That was Shawn Marion, who subsequently expressed regret about making the remark.

Considering the circumstances, I think it's okay that the team doesn't have a fixed rotation at this point. Agree that tinkering is in Carlisle's DNA, and that it would indeed be fun to be a fly on the wall!

He said at the end of the 2009/2010 season while the Mavs were trying to figure out how to integrate the team with it's new players. I went ballistic after the loss to the Spurs in the playoffs and said that it was time for the team to start over with Dirk and Roddy B, sell all vests via trade, and begin a youth movement. Sure am glad I wasn't the GM!!!!!

LOL, I remember that well. Roddy B fever messed with our heads.

And of course, we'd be without a championship if I had had my way in 2010.

[Hypermav]

This is NOT a fire Carlisle thread.

---

https://youtu.be/27ZAsmv98KQ



He seems empty and exhausted for whatever reason. I hope he'll get better.

https://twitter.com/King_ofCanada/status/1195188625920679936

He was tired out from making this face all night.  I think his tinkering wasn't working like he hoped.

If you told me during the summer Doncic would be THIS dominant and that the Mavs get swept by the Knicks.  I'd say you were crazy.

[ballsrchr]

I can't remember who it was but a few years ago there was a player that mentioned something about Carlisle jerking the players around like rag dolls...referring to the lineups and tinkering.  All I know for sure is that I don't like the lineups...or the jerking around. The team forgot to ask me though.  It also sometimes looks like Carlisle can be a bit petty.  Too bad we are not in the inner circle...

That was Shawn Marion, who subsequently expressed regret about making the remark.

Considering the circumstances, I think it's okay that the team doesn't have a fixed rotation at this point. Agree that tinkering is in Carlisle's DNA, and that it would indeed be fun to be a fly on the wall!

Ah yes...I remember now.  Well...Carlisle is the coach.  The mavs are my team.  I go where they go.  I hope that is to the playoffs...and all the way up.

[SportPsychMav]

I can't remember who it was but a few years ago there was a player that mentioned something about Carlisle jerking the players around like rag dolls...referring to the lineups and tinkering.  All I know for sure is that I don't like the lineups...or the jerking around. The team forgot to ask me though.  It also sometimes looks like Carlisle can be a bit petty.  Too bad we are not in the inner circle...

That was Shawn Marion, who subsequently expressed regret about making the remark.

Considering the circumstances, I think it's okay that the team doesn't have a fixed rotation at this point. Agree that tinkering is in Carlisle's DNA, and that it would indeed be fun to be a fly on the wall!

Ah yes...I remember now.  Well...Carlisle is the coach.  The mavs are my team.  I go where they go.  I hope that is to the playoffs...and all the way up.

In this context it doesn't really matter if Marion regrets masking that remark. Still gives evidence that this tinkering messes with the players. 
It's a young team, they need stabilty.

[mavsluvr]

I can't remember who it was but a few years ago there was a player that mentioned something about Carlisle jerking the players around like rag dolls...referring to the lineups and tinkering.  All I know for sure is that I don't like the lineups...or the jerking around. The team forgot to ask me though.  It also sometimes looks like Carlisle can be a bit petty.  Too bad we are not in the inner circle...

That was Shawn Marion, who subsequently expressed regret about making the remark.

Considering the circumstances, I think it's okay that the team doesn't have a fixed rotation at this point. Agree that tinkering is in Carlisle's DNA, and that it would indeed be fun to be a fly on the wall!

Ah yes...I remember now.  Well...Carlisle is the coach.  The mavs are my team.  I go where they go.  I hope that is to the playoffs...and all the way up.

In this context it doesn't really matter if Marion regrets masking that remark. Still gives evidence that this tinkering messes with the players. 
It's a young team, they need stabilty.

I think that the Mavs would agree that a fixed rotation would be easier on the players. I also think, from their perspective, it doesn't especially matter. 

I will elaborate on what I think their primary objectives are, and how the tinkering works in. I am not attempting to serve as an apologist for their position, just saying what I think it is. 

As fans, we tend to focus on one game at a time, or even one season at a time, as if that were an end unto itself. So, doing something that makes a team that is trying to win less likely to win in the short term is confounding to us. 

The Mavericks, at the front office level, are a very forward-thinking organization. They are planning for several years out, and are fairly ruthless about not getting overly attached to individual players from a business standpoint. There is a very good chance that they don't plan for most of these players to even be in the squad in one to three seasons. Hence, whether the role players are comfortable with the rotation isn't a high priority item on their list. They are focused on making the Luka-KP duo work, seeing what kind of players they need around them, what kind of players they play well with, where they most need to upgrade, etc. 

They are also trying to make a playoff push, so matters like consistency of rotation may become more important as the season wears on, if RC thinks it will improve their likelihood of getting into the postseason. But having a fixed rotation isn't a goal in and of itself. They are aware that the players would be more comfortable in that situation, and they think they are making the right choice long term by experimenting in a year in which they aren't contending for a deep playoff run in any case.

I realize that you probably don't agree that they should take this view, and that's fine. I am not taking a position on it. I am just trying to lay out why decisions that don't seem to make any sense to us fans can seem to make all kinds of sense to someone who is making choices based on a longer term perspective.

[SportPsychMav]

I can't remember who it was but a few years ago there was a player that mentioned something about Carlisle jerking the players around like rag dolls...referring to the lineups and tinkering.  All I know for sure is that I don't like the lineups...or the jerking around. The team forgot to ask me though.  It also sometimes looks like Carlisle can be a bit petty.  Too bad we are not in the inner circle...

That was Shawn Marion, who subsequently expressed regret about making the remark.

Considering the circumstances, I think it's okay that the team doesn't have a fixed rotation at this point. Agree that tinkering is in Carlisle's DNA, and that it would indeed be fun to be a fly on the wall!

Ah yes...I remember now.  Well...Carlisle is the coach.  The mavs are my team.  I go where they go.  I hope that is to the playoffs...and all the way up.

In this context it doesn't really matter if Marion regrets masking that remark. Still gives evidence that this tinkering messes with the players. 
It's a young team, they need stabilty.

I think that the Mavs would agree that a fixed rotation would be easier on the players. I also think, from their perspective, it doesn't especially matter. 

I will elaborate on what I think their primary objectives are, and how the tinkering works in. I am not attempting to serve as an apologist for their position, just saying what I think it is. 

As fans, we tend to focus on one game at a time, or even one season at a time, as if that were an end unto itself. So, doing something that makes a team that is trying to win less likely to win in the short term is confounding to us. 

The Mavericks, at the front office level, are a very forward-thinking organization. They are planning for several years out, and are fairly ruthless about not getting overly attached to individual players from a business standpoint. There is a very good chance that they don't plan for most of these players to even be in the squad in one to three seasons. Hence, whether the role players are comfortable with the rotation isn't a high priority item on their list. They are focused on making the Luka-KP duo work, seeing what kind of players they need around them, what kind of players they play well with, where they most need to upgrade, etc. 

They are also trying to make a playoff push, so matters like consistency of rotation may become more important as the season wears on, if RC thinks it will improve their likelihood of getting into the postseason. But having a fixed rotation isn't a goal in and of itself. They are aware that the players would be more comfortable in that situation, and they think they are making the right choice long term by experimenting in a year in which they aren't contending for a deep playoff run in any case.

I realize that you probably don't agree that they should take this view, and that's fine. I am not taking a position on it. I am just trying to lay out why decisions that don't seem to make any sense to us fans can seem to make all kinds of sense to someone who is making choices based on a longer term perspective.

We will never know, there are an infinite number of possible perspectives to be taken. 

In sports, as with everything in life it is always a competition between what is best now and what is possibly best in the future.

It is quite sure they are not fixed on this group of players, all have easily tradeable contracts and they have value.

From past experiences we know the MBT loves to have options. 


When pointing to the instability of the roles being a problem for younger players, it is simply an explanation, most of the players are insecure.

Multiple competing goals. Individuals (Coach, Owner, Fans, Players)

It's all delicate.

[ballsrchr]

My only concern is that indiscriminate tinkering messes with player's heads at a personal level.  Some of those players may not be able to recover from it.  When it comes time for the coach to ask those players to give it all...they may not respond, or be able to respond.
Obviously I believe that coaches have a lot of responsibility.  Maybe it's just a thankless job...

[mavsluvr]

My only concern is that indiscriminate tinkering messes with player's heads at a personal level.  Some of those players may not be able to recover from it.  When it comes time for the coach to ask those players to give it all...they may not respond, or be able to respond.
Obviously I believe that coaches have a lot of responsibility.  Maybe its just a thankless job...

I don't deny that it's an issue. 

I guess what it ultimately comes down to in this case is that some players will be resilient enough to cope, and there is a possibility that others won't. As far as the ones that won't, I hate to think about this in such bottom-line terms, but I think the business viewpoint is that those players aren't going to be there very long anyway, so the organization is not going to cater to those sensitivities. Of course, whenever the coach decides that the organizational benefits of a fixed rotation outweigh the costs, they will move in that direction. 

It's a cold world out there, ballsrchr. I get where you're coming from.

[SportPsychMav]

He did it folks he made almost all the adjustments many of us called for and it looked great!

Only his back to the tinkering weirdo small ball lineup with Powell as the only big man to start the 2nd was a really bad idea, his sole bad behavior this game.

Great game from Rick listening to common sense!

[dirkfansince1998]

He did it folks he made almost all the adjustments many of us called for and it looked great!

Only his back to the tinkering weirdo small ball lineup with Powell as the only big man to start the 2nd was a really bad idea, his sole bad behavior this game.

Great game from Rick listening to common sense!

I really don´t like this smartest guy in the room attitude. Especially because the Mavs could lose a game with a similar gameplan next week and everyone would be calling for RCs head again.
It´s like people on reddit, twitter or this board actually think that they know more about basketball than a former player and current coach that has been in the league for 35 years.
Yes RC makes mistakes but it´s not like the starting five or the rotations are a given with the current group of players.
For example. If he had followed your advise 2/11 THJ would have been in the starting five but I don´t hear any complains after a win. If he would listen to me THJ and Jackson both would not play. I certainly won´t complain if both actually have a good game. Some people complained about the lack of minutes for Boban . No one even mentioned him today. Half of the board wanted to kick Curry out of the starting five. Guess who gets celebrated for a great game right now.

We all should remember that this isn´t a fantasy bball league. There is no easy solution for everything. Today things worked out but it´s not like the problems are gone. Mavs still struggle from 3 and cannot exploit the double teams Luka draws.

[SportPsychMav]

He did it folks he made almost all the adjustments many of us called for and it looked great!

Only his back to the tinkering weirdo small ball lineup with Powell as the only big man to start the 2nd was a really bad idea, his sole bad behavior this game.

Great game from Rick listening to common sense!

I really don´t like this smartest guy in the room attitude. Especially because the Mavs could lose a game with a similar gameplan next week and everyone would be calling for RCs head again.
It´s like people on reddit, twitter or this board actually think that they know more about basketball than a former player and current coach that has been in the league for 35 years.
Yes RC makes mistakes but it´s not like the starting five or the rotations are a given with the current group of players.
For example. If he had followed your advise 2/11 THJ would have been in the starting five but I don´t hear any complains after a win. If he would listen to me THJ and Jackson both would not play. I certainly won´t complain if both actually have a good game. Some people complained about the lack of minutes for Boban . No one even mentioned him today. Half of the board wanted to kick Curry out of the starting five. Guess who gets celebrated for a great game right now.

We all should remember that this isn´t a fantasy bball league. There is no easy solution for everything. Today things worked out but it´s not like the problems are gone. Mavs still struggle from 3 and cannot exploit the double teams Luka draws.

I said in the 3rd I don't mind them losing playing like that. 

Regarding Tim Hardaway I said he is a good fit with Luka and in the starting Lineup, and I stand by that. I think it's his best fit, especially to reign him in.

You should differentiate a bit more, you don't need to like me.

[dirkfansince1998]

He did it folks he made almost all the adjustments many of us called for and it looked great!

Only his back to the tinkering weirdo small ball lineup with Powell as the only big man to start the 2nd was a really bad idea, his sole bad behavior this game.

Great game from Rick listening to common sense!

I really don´t like this smartest guy in the room attitude. Especially because the Mavs could lose a game with a similar gameplan next week and everyone would be calling for RCs head again.
It´s like people on reddit, twitter or this board actually think that they know more about basketball than a former player and current coach that has been in the league for 35 years.
Yes RC makes mistakes but it´s not like the starting five or the rotations are a given with the current group of players.
For example. If he had followed your advise 2/11 THJ would have been in the starting five but I don´t hear any complains after a win. If he would listen to me THJ and Jackson both would not play. I certainly won´t complain if both actually have a good game. Some people complained about the lack of minutes for Boban . No one even mentioned him today. Half of the board wanted to kick Curry out of the starting five. Guess who gets celebrated for a great game right now.

We all should remember that this isn´t a fantasy bball league. There is no easy solution for everything. Today things worked out but it´s not like the problems are gone. Mavs still struggle from 3 and cannot exploit the double teams Luka draws.

I said in the 3rd I don't mind them losing playing like that. 

Regarding Tim Hardaway I said he is a good fit with Luka and in the starting Lineup, and I stand by that. I think it's his best fit, especially to reign him in.

You should differentiate a bit more, you don't need to like me.

This isn´t about me liking or disliking anyone and I apologize if I somehow offended you with my post. I just think that all of us should realize that this isn´t about being right or wrong. There is no simple fix for all of the Mavs problems. If GMs, coaches or players would listen to our suggestions the starting five would change even more and half the roster would get traded twice a week by a new GM, new coach and maybe even a new owner.
Best example would be the trade Dirk and rebuild crowd in the mid 2000s. I wasn´t part of this community at this point but posted on another board. Mavs fans were going wild and wanted to trade him. Today everyone is acting like it never happened and no one that participated wants to admit it.

It´s a lot easier to voice opinions if you aren´t directly involved. It´s also a lot easier to judge his adjustments in hindsight. Just imagine this place if the "common sense" rotations and schemes lead to a blowout loss against one of the next opponents. I can guarantee you that the same folks that asked for the adjustments will happily bash RC if they won´t work in the next game. He could follow some peoples gameplan in every detail. It wouldn´t change the reaction.

[Mavsfan12]

He did it folks he made almost all the adjustments many of us called for and it looked great!

Only his back to the tinkering weirdo small ball lineup with Powell as the only big man to start the 2nd was a really bad idea, his sole bad behavior this game.

Great game from Rick listening to common sense!

I really don´t like this smartest guy in the room attitude. Especially because the Mavs could lose a game with a similar gameplan next week and everyone would be calling for RCs head again.
It´s like people on reddit, twitter or this board actually think that they know more about basketball than a former player and current coach that has been in the league for 35 years.
Yes RC makes mistakes but it´s not like the starting five or the rotations are a given with the current group of players.
For example. If he had followed your advise 2/11 THJ would have been in the starting five but I don´t hear any complains after a win. If he would listen to me THJ and Jackson both would not play. I certainly won´t complain if both actually have a good game. Some people complained about the lack of minutes for Boban . No one even mentioned him today. Half of the board wanted to kick Curry out of the starting five. Guess who gets celebrated for a great game right now.

We all should remember that this isn´t a fantasy bball league. There is no easy solution for everything. Today things worked out but it´s not like the problems are gone. Mavs still struggle from 3 and cannot exploit the double teams Luka draws.

I said in the 3rd I don't mind them losing playing like that. 

Regarding Tim Hardaway I said he is a good fit with Luka and in the starting Lineup, and I stand by that. I think it's his best fit, especially to reign him in.

You should differentiate a bit more, you don't need to like me.

This isn´t about me liking or disliking anyone and I apologize if I somehow offended you with my post. I just think that all of us should realize that this isn´t about being right or wrong. There is no simple fix for all of the Mavs problems. If GMs, coaches or players would listen to our suggestions the starting five would change even more and half the roster would get traded twice a week by a new GM, new coach and maybe even a new owner.
Best example would be the trade Dirk and rebuild crowd in the mid 2000s. I wasn´t part of this community at this point but posted on another board. Mavs fans were going wild and wanted to trade him. Today everyone is acting like it never happened and no one that participated wants to admit it.

It´s a lot easier to voice opinions if you aren´t directly involved. It´s also a lot easier to judge his adjustments in hindsight. Just imagine this place if the "common sense" rotations and schemes lead to a blowout loss against one of the next opponents. I can guarantee you that the same folks that asked for the adjustments will happily bash RC if they won´t work in the next game. He could follow some peoples gameplan in every detail. It wouldn´t change the reaction.

[Halfnir]

It´s a lot easier to voice opinions if you aren´t directly involved. It´s also a lot easier to judge his adjustments in hindsight.

Also we need to remember that our opinion is often based on incomplete data. We don't know how players feel, if they are banged up a bit or low on energy (breeding a flu or whatever). We don't know if they had a bad night of sleep for whatever reason or just a bad shoot-around in the morning. It happens, atheletes are not machines. Carlisle tries to adjust, fans complain about uncommon minute distribution or rotations. No NBA player will admit in a post game interview that the coach benched him because he wasn't feeling 100% (he'd get slaughtered by the "soft"-callers), yet we all agree that a 80% bench player is often not a valuable contributer on NBA level (stars might be different case).

[SportPsychMav]

It´s a lot easier to voice opinions if you aren´t directly involved. It´s also a lot easier to judge his adjustments in hindsight.

Also we need to remember that our opinion is often based on incomplete data. We don't know how players feel, if they are banged up a bit or low on energy (breeding a flu or whatever). We don't know if they had a bad night of sleep for whatever reason or just a bad shoot-around in the morning. It happens, atheletes are not machines. Carlisle tries to adjust, fans complain about uncommon minute distribution or rotations. No NBA player will admit in a post game interview that the coach benched him because he wasn't feeling 100% (he'd get slaughtered by the "soft"-callers), yet we all agree that a 80% bench player is often not a valuable contributer on NBA level (stars might be different case).

While what you say is valid, and it's a good post in my opinion, literally every opinion is based on incomplete data. That's just the nature of this world.
What is it you want to talk about then? All is relative.

[Halfnir]

While what you say is valid, and it's a good post in my opinion, literally every opinion is based on incomplete data. That's just the nature of this world.
What is it you want to talk about then? All is relative.

Right, but keeping the fact in mind makes the difference between posting "i don't understand what Carlisle did there" and "Carlisle is a f**king moron and his rotations are shit".

[SportPsychMav]

While what you say is valid, and it's a good post in my opinion, literally every opinion is based on incomplete data. That's just the nature of this world.
What is it you want to talk about then? All is relative.

Right, but keeping the fact in mind makes the difference between posting "i don't understand what Carlisle did there" and "Carlisle is a f**king moron and his rotations are shit".

Some of those reactions are definitely hilarious.

What personally offends me more are the takes throwing reasonable, grounded critical positions in the same bus with the overreactions.