MAVERICKS 139, PELICANS 107

[mvossman]

I'd still trade him at the first reasonable opportunity.

I feel like the time to trade him has passed.  If we had traded him during or prior to this last offseason, we would have had the flexibility to fill in the holes.  The perfect starting center match for Luka (Holmes) was available for 12 mil a year.  Depending what you traded KP for, you could tackle other holes.  You likely would have enough cap left over to sign DeRozan, who addresses the need for another player who can create for themselves and others.  Then you focus on 3&D guys to fill out the roster.  A Holmes/DFS/DeRozan/Luka core is better than a KP/DFS/Luka/THJ core.

But now?  Our big rotation is already an issue, and removing KP generates a gapping hole.  We don't have another starting quality center.  After Luka extension we have no cap to upgrade in free agency, and we have limited assets for trading.  You would want to get significant value out of a KP trade now or it makes little sense.  I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Kammrath]

Are you sure you want to make that joke? Of all people?

Yes, I am sure. It's a joke. That's what jokes are for.

[omahen]

Do you allow any room in your thinking for the possibility that they've determined he's not even ready for that?

Or, that maybe they've already determined that he's just not ever going to make it, so what's the point?

I think those are kind of similar. If they think he is so bad, then I don't know why he is still on the team. In any case, I am not trying to guess what they are thinking. I am saying what I think they should do. Or what I would do if I was in their place. 

Is it your opinion that Green will definitely improve if given time, as you suggest?

My opinion is he will never improve without playing. I think a team should give their only young asset 10-15 minutes per night. I am not speaking about minutes Brown was given, thrown in the lion pit against huge team to be destroyed. Part of second and third quarter, more minutes if he has a good day. I think his play last season showed he is capable of that. He was even a difference maker here and there, provided much needed energy. I don't think he is that bad on the offensive end that the team couldn't survive with him on the floor for those 10 minutes or so. Encourage him when he makes a mistake. 

Luka-FN-Green-Maxi-center or small ball could be an interesting combination for a couple of minutes. Green would get a couple of wide open shots per game as defenses would probably pack the paint. But defense could be good so he could get into fastbreak opportunity.

[KillerLeft]

I feel like the time to trade him has passed.  If we had traded him during or prior to this last offseason, we would have had the flexibility to fill in the holes.  The perfect starting center match for Luka (Holmes) was available for 12 mil a year.  Depending what you traded KP for, you could tackle other holes.  You likely would have enough cap left over to sign DeRozan, who addresses the need for another player who can create for themselves and others.  Then you focus on 3&D guys to fill out the roster.  A Holmes/DFS/DeRozan/Luka core is better than a KP/DFS/Luka/THJ core.

But now?  Our big rotation is already an issue, and removing KP generates a gapping hole.  We don't have another starting quality center.  After Luka extension we have no cap to upgrade in free agency, and we have limited assets for trading.  You would want to get significant value out of a KP trade now or it makes little sense.  I don't see that happening any time soon.

This is a great post and point. 

And, I agree, to a certain extent. I think it would have been better to trade him in at a time when there was still flexibility with cap room to approach the pivot in a variety of ways. No doubt. 

But, I also think we might still see stretches in which KP's presence on the roster literally makes the team worse, as it did last season. I fully admit that has not been the case this season, so far, and I'm really happy about that. I would still be tempted to trade him now, even though I agree with your points. It's just that now you much more badly need to trade him for something useful, I guess.

---

You would want to get significant value out of a KP trade now or it makes little sense.  I don't see that happening any time soon.

Ultimately, you're probably right on target here.

[omahen]

I feel like the time to trade him has passed.  If we had traded him during or prior to this last offseason, we would have had the flexibility to fill in the holes.  The perfect starting center match for Luka (Holmes) was available for 12 mil a year.  Depending what you traded KP for, you could tackle other holes.  You likely would have enough cap left over to sign DeRozan, who addresses the need for another player who can create for themselves and others.  Then you focus on 3&D guys to fill out the roster.  A Holmes/DFS/DeRozan/Luka core is better than a KP/DFS/Luka/THJ core.

But now?  Our big rotation is already an issue, and removing KP generates a gapping hole.  We don't have another starting quality center.  After Luka extension we have no cap to upgrade in free agency, and we have limited assets for trading.  You would want to get significant value out of a KP trade now or it makes little sense.  I don't see that happening any time soon.

Very much agree. I think Mavs have little option but build around Luka-KP trying to add a third key complimentary piece that would perhaps put all the other pieces, often asked to do too much, in the right role. Use Powell/WCS as matching salary in the trade and replace their roles with vet min guys. I am sure some halfway decent centers will be dumped after TDL.

[KillerLeft]

My opinion is he will never improve without playing. I think a team should give their only young asset 10-15 minutes per night. I am not speaking about minutes Brown was given, thrown in the lion pit against huge team to be destroyed. Part of second and third quarter, more minutes if he has a good day. I think his play last season showed he is capable of that. He was even a difference maker here and there, provided much needed energy. I don't think he is that bad on the offensive end that the team couldn't survive with him on the floor for those 10 minutes or so. Encourage him when he makes a mistake. 

Gotcha. 

So why do you think this hasn't been the approach? Put yourself in their shoes - can you rationalize it to support the reality of what we're seeing (that he's not playing) or do you just think it's a mistake, no matter how you slice it - incompetence on the Mavericks' part? 

If it's a mistake, who do you incline to blame? Is this a head coach thing (Carlisle and Kidd)? Is it a blind spot on the organizational level?

[KillerLeft]

Use Powell/WCS as matching salary in the trade and replace their roles with vet min guys. I am sure some halfway decent centers will be dumped after TDL.

This would be helpful, for sure.

[hakeemfaan]

I'm not even sure I agree that Green is one of the best defenders on the team. I mean, he definitely has the physical gifts for defense and good instincts on that end, so the potential is there. But, I've noticed that most fans only evaluate the defenders who are guarding the ball-handler at the moment the shot goes up, generally. Imo, what happens leading up to that point, before their man gets the ball, is just as if not more important. 

DFS, for example, is GREAT at ball denial most of the time. And, I believe he's the best at forcing the ball-handler towards the help defense. I would never dream of replacing him with anyone if my goal was to improve the defense. I'd aim to add other good team defenders to the lineup with him. 

Maybe Green is farther along with those things than I realize - that's very possible. All I know is that Kidd has played Green less than Carlisle did, so far. So, that's two coaches who have transparently shown us they don't believe Green is quite ready to be depended upon during meaningful NBA minutes yet. I assume both of them really want him to help the team, and both had plans for the player to learn and grow into a role.

Carlisle is coaching elsewhere and some of Kidd’s rotations have got destroyed by opponents in recent games. I am not asking to give minutes to a player that we picked out of the G league. This was a relatively high first round choice who has shown an ability to play defense and a tendency to play hard. Some of those things seem missing from our starters on a night in night out basis. 

I am not even saying he is a better player than THJ or Brunson. Just that what he brings is a better fit for us to start games. I do think as far as offense he has the potential to be better than Frank N if the team is not obsessed with 3 pt shooting. But again, it’s not like most on this team are firing on all cylinders anyway.

[omahen]

So why do you think this hasn't been the approach? Put yourself in their shoes - can you rationalize it to support the reality of what we're seeing (that he's not playing) or do you just think it's a mistake, no matter how you slice it - incompetence on the Mavericks' part? 

If it's a mistake, who do you incline to blame? Is this a head coach thing (Carlisle and Kidd)? Is it a blind spot on the organizational level?

The only reasonable thing that I can think of is that Mavs are so pressured by result that the team doesn't have any reserve to experiment with a guy that is at this point (probably) slightly worse than the alternatives (mainly Brown). Similar to WCS/Brown situation. My dissapointment is that they brought so average low ceiling guys to eat Green minutes. If those would be taken by considerably better player (Lowry for example), I could perfectly understand. But is Brown really that much better? I don't think so. 

There are two possible explanations for Mavs team building strategy:
Option 1: It looks to me like Mavs approach to team building is as if they are contenders. Adding reliable guys that you can usually trust to provide decent defense and some scoring (Bullock, Brown). However, I think they are not contenders and they should be working on their assets. Even if this means a couple of wins less. It is easy to add guys like Bullock/Brown at any point, once you are trully ready. 
Option 2: Mavs thought they are getting way more with Mullock/Brown. And I am not just speaking about shooting accuracy. Bullock for example shoots a couple of shots only, even with higher percentage it would not mean much. In this case I am affraid it looks like the acquisitions were not successful.

[hakeemfaan]

Under normal circumstances, you would expect a team's second-year first-round pick to be in the rotation, even if only for 10-15 minutes. That might lead us to consider why Green is still warming the bench. 


I don't think you can drop Willie and Powell and play Green in their places. I don't think he has the skills/body to play center, although I am open to being corrected on that. 

It's one thing to have a big who can't shoot on the floor. I can't think of a place in the NBA these days for a perimeter player who is not a threat to score. Since he is on his second coach now who does not deem him worthy of developmental minutes, I can only come to the conclusion that they don't think developmental minutes with the team are likely to result in his developing an offensive game in the short or mid-term. As far as trade value, they might actually think playing him would reduce his value below what it is now, if he indeed has any trade value.

But, who knows, maybe he's just in the second doghouse of his career here. He might be better off getting moved to a rebuilding team, if his future here still isn't looking up. 

This is not to negate your point that the team needs to develop assets. Very young players are  not always easy to evaluate in the draft. Some are able to develop into NBA players, but some aren't. That's on any team, not just the Mavs. Hopefully, they can get better at player development and/or make more fortuitous choices going forward.

Is he not a threat to score or is not a deep ball threat?  He seems like he can score mid range and in but is definitely not a good 3 pt shooter yet. I think he has much more offensive versatility than either Frank N or DFS. Then again that is not saying much.

[KillerLeft]

I am not even saying he is a better player than THJ or Brunson. Just that what he brings is a better fit for us to start games. I do think as far as offense he has the potential to be better than Frank N if the team is not obsessed with 3 pt shooting. But again, it’s not like most on this team are firing on all cylinders anyway.

Right, I get most of your point. 

It seems like Kidd did exactly what you wanted to do by trying Bullock in place of THJ last night. Are you saying you would go farther with it and ALSO add Green in place of someone else (DFS in your earlier post), or are you saying you'd prefer Green be the addition, not Bullock?

[hakeemfaan]

Right, I get most of your point. 

It seems like Kidd did exactly what you wanted to do by trying Bullock in place of THJ last night. Are you saying you would go farther with it and ALSO add Green in place of someone else (DFS in your earlier post), or are you saying you'd prefer Green be the addition, not Bullock?

I had said I wanted both Bullock and Green in the starting lineup after the Cavs game. If not Green then put Frank N if he is healthy. Basically I want more defense along with Luka and KP to start games. Plus it gets us a better bench. Anyway finishing five is more about who are the best. Starting 5 I have always looked at as an unit that can bring a lot of energy to start games and ensure that the right mindset is there from the start.

[KillerLeft]

The only reasonable thing that I can think of is that Mavs are so pressured by result that the team doesn't have any reserve to experiment with a guy that is at this point (probably) slightly worse than the alternatives (mainly Brown). Similar to WCS/Brown situation. My dissapointment is that they brought so average low ceiling guys to eat Green minutes. If those would be taken by considerably better player (Lowry for example), I could perfectly understand. But is Brown really that much better? I don't think so. 

There are two possible explanations for Mavs team building strategy:
Option 1: It looks to me like Mavs approach to team building is as if they are contenders. Adding reliable guys that you can usually trust to provide decent defense and some scoring (Bullock, Brown). However, I think they are not contenders and they should be working on their assets. Even if this means a couple of wins less. It is easy to add guys like Bullock/Brown at any point, once you are trully ready. 
Option 2: Mavs thought they are getting way more with Mullock/Brown. And I am not just speaking about shooting accuracy. Bullock for example shoots a couple of shots only, even with higher percentage it would not mean much. In this case I am affraid it looks like the acquisitions were not successful.

First of all, GREAT stuff, thanks!

I don't think there's any question that the Mavs believed this summer that they're very close to contention, if not already there. And, I'm kind of with you in pushing back on that a little. But then again, if Luka/KP figure out how to play offense together more consistently, Brunson continues to shine and they can get THJ right again (whether starting or off the bench) they might be closer than we think. If all of that happens I can see the right 3&D players being exactly what the doctor ordered, in hindsight. Here's hoping. 

I agree, Lowry or someone else impactful on that level would've been amazing. They tried and couldn't get it done. That's on them, and I'm not saying we should just let them off the hook for it. You were also high on DeRozan, and I was not, but if I had known the offense was going to go in the direction it has this season, I might've thought differently about him, too. He's having a tremendous impact in Chicago, for sure. Still, guys like that don't want to come here to play with Luka yet, for whatever reason. I think that's pretty clear. 

And, I even agree that the Mavs as an organization haven't been good at all with minor asset management. I'm not pushing back on that point. I guess I've just kind of already turned the page on viewing Green in that light, and maybe that's premature. Or maybe that's your entire point - that you have to start somewhere.

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I had said I wanted both Bullock and Green in the starting lineup after the Cavs game. If not Green then put Frank N if he is healthy. Basically I want more defense along with Luka and KP to start games. Plus it gets us a better bench. Anyway finishing five is more about who are the best. Starting 5 I have always looked at as an unit that can bring a lot of energy to start games and ensure that the right mindset is there from the start.

Ok, so if I'm understanding you now, the disagreement is about whether or not Green and/or Bullock represent "more defense" than DFS. I'm with you now.

[mavsluvr]

Is he not a threat to score or is not a deep ball threat?  He seems like he can score mid range and in but is definitely not a good 3 pt shooter yet. I think he has much more offensive versatility than either Frank N or DFS. Then again that is not saying much.

lol

Based on what I have seen, I would have to say he doesn't seem like a threat to score. From anywhere. (I don't consider being able to make a few points in competitive environments like garbage time, summer league, or the G-League as indication of an ability to consistently score against NBA defenses, but maybe some do.) Perhaps I'm wrong. But on the theory that the Mavs don't view him as likely to help --

It has occurred to me that you have a good point (teams should develop their assets), but maybe not the right guy as the messenger. There may be good reasons that Green in particular is not playing. As I recall, he couldn't get minutes on the Australian team either, and I believe the Mavs were a little disappointed that he didn't participate in summer league where he could have gotten substantial minutes, although they went along with the decision.

I find it surreal that the coach, GM and/or owner would reach a decision that they were no longer going to engage in player development, or that they would decide on a whim that they are not going to play a guy who could help them. But, it's the Mavs, and with all their dysfunctions, I guess anything is possible. 

I just don't know if Green is the guy who best drives home your good point that they should develop young players. Like, if they were refusing to play Luka (who is only a year older than Josh), I think Mavs fans as a whole (including me) would be vociferously joining your cause. With a guy who hasn't shown much, I think it's harder (although I understand that your point is that you have to play a young guy before he shows something, not wait around for him to do so). At any rate, I suspect we may be missing a piece or two of info about Josh that might make his repeated exclusion from teams, even though he is apparently a good soldier, make a little more sense. If the Mavs decide that they aren't going to develop him, I hope they help him find a team who will.

[KillerLeft]

At any rate, I suspect we may be missing a piece or two of info about Josh that might make his repeated exclusion from teams, even though he is apparently a good soldier, make a little more sense.

This is exactly where I am with it, too. Perfectly articulated. I wish I was better at surgical brevity like this.

[mavsluvr]

This is exactly where I am with it, too. Perfectly articulated. I wish I was better at surgical brevity like this.

To the contrary, I think your posts are rendered with astonishing clarity and rare style.

[KillerLeft]

To the contrary, I think your posts are rendered with astonishing clarity and rare style.

[mavsluvr]

lol

[ClutchDirk]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l2JJxBq2Rc.../giphy.gif

[omahen]

But then again, if Luka/KP figure out how to play offense together more consistently, Brunson continues to shine and they can get THJ right again (whether starting or off the bench) they might be closer than we think.

I think an awful lot of things would have to go perfect. That rarely happens. 

I agree, Lowry or someone else impactful on that level would've been amazing. They tried and couldn't get it done. That's on them, and I'm not saying we should just let them off the hook for it.

Most of us thought Mavs are one (very) good but not necessarily star player away from being serious contender. Combined with keeping the team, which based on how Miami got Lowry, would be realistically possible. But since they wiffed on Lowry or similar level of player, I wonder if the chosen strategy was really optimal. I said in the summer - when I look at this team I see a low ceiling team with limited available minutes for developmental players. Wouldn't perhaps make more sense (after Lowry didn't come through) to recognize two role players are not enough to make Dallas a contender so an alternative strategy is to develop assets. Perhaps target younger players with higher ceiling like THT, Caruso, Korkmaz, Monk? Spotlight a couple of own young players. Why the hell they didn't target Holmes since they value a center so much is beyond me. I find it quite difficult to accept that Bullock/Brown equals Lowry in terms of raising Mavs ceiling which they are trying to convince us.

You were also high on DeRozan, and I was not, but if I had known the offense was going to go in the direction it has this season, I might've thought differently about him, too. He's having a tremendous impact in Chicago, for sure. Still, guys like that don't want to come here to play with Luka yet, for whatever reason. I think that's pretty clear.

Not that I was high on him, I thought that he will be the target. Mavs really need to dig deep and recognize why good players prefer a team like Chicago (bottom of the league) than Dallas. The league is more and more player driven. It is not enough to convince a FA. Even players with contract can influence a lot where they will be traded to. At least of course the players that matter. Recruiting is crucial.

Btw. SnT seems to be the game lately and price for SnT (UFA ones) is of course much lower than trading for a guy with a year or two left on the deal. Unfortunatelly UFA class is really weak. I don't even dare dream about guys like LaVine or Beal. There is a steep drop-off after that. There is Warren, but he has been injured for almost 2 years and who knows how he will look. Mitchell Robinson or Nurkic might be a decent center alternative, way more upside than Powell/WCS. Who knows how much RoCo will demand, as he is getting old and wasn't exactly stellar in Portland. But RoCo-Bullock-DFS could form a decent wing defense next to Luka and KP (or Brunson-Kleber for example).