MAVERICKS 139, PELICANS 107

[KillerLeft]

I also find it dispiriting if KP is now another defensive liability that we have to cover for. 

When he was signed and then maxed, I thought the idea was that he was supposed to be an asset on the defensive end.

Reluctantly, I'm starting to buy into the idea that he can be a plus on defense again. He has certainly had several 5-6 minute stretches this season during which that was undeniably the case. 

The true test will be: can he survive in a big game when the other team implements a plan to attack his slow feet in space? So far, we've seen that he can hang (and even win) on defense in the paint. I just need to see him win as a screen defender without resorting to drop coverage a few times. Once that ability is established I'll feel a ton better about where the team is.

[Kammrath]

DFS, for example

[Chicagojk]

I think the Bullock starting could work out.  We will see though.  I was thinking a different direction though.  

Either way, if we are starting Powell or WCS at center, I think who ever we start is going to be limited in the long run.   

I prefer Hardaway off the bench.  I want him entering the game firing.   I think when he is a starter, he sort of takes a back seat to begin games.  I like him coming in when the pace is up after the start of the game and being aggressive shooting the ball.

So, I know there is some ego to start and that is normal.   The bigger concern though is who is going to finish games.  I think Jalen is the better fit over Hardaway.   If this is true, this could be a bigger issue and also something to consider moving forward the next few years.

[KillerLeft]

Are you sure you want to make that joke? Of all people?

---

I prefer Hardaway off the bench.  I want him entering the game firing.   I think when he is a starter, he sort of takes a back seat to begin games.  I like him coming in when the pace is up after the start of the game and being aggressive shooting the ball.

Yeah, so if it can be done in such a way where he's the immediate focus coming off the bench, I'm with you. It's just that it hasn't ever worked out that way in the past. 

We'll see, however. I wasn't shocked they tried it last night because it's undeniable that THJ has been disappointing this season, so far. Something had to give.

[fifteenth]

Are you sure you want to make that joke? Of all people?

---

[mavsluvr]

What I am trying to say is about developing an asset. A decent team should be able to survive 15 minutes per night from a low producing rookie, who they want to develop and (if nothing else), increase his trade value. For some reason Mavs decided they rather do this kind of thing with WCS and Powell. Playing two guys 15 minutes per night each despite minimum production they provide.

Under normal circumstances, you would expect a team's second-year first-round pick to be in the rotation, even if only for 10-15 minutes. That might lead us to consider why Green is still warming the bench. 


I don't think you can drop Willie and Powell and play Green in their places. I don't think he has the skills/body to play center, although I am open to being corrected on that. 

It's one thing to have a big who can't shoot on the floor. I can't think of a place in the NBA these days for a perimeter player who is not a threat to score. Since he is on his second coach now who does not deem him worthy of developmental minutes, I can only come to the conclusion that they don't think developmental minutes with the team are likely to result in his developing an offensive game in the short or mid-term. As far as trade value, they might actually think playing him would reduce his value below what it is now, if he indeed has any trade value.

But, who knows, maybe he's just in the second doghouse of his career here. He might be better off getting moved to a rebuilding team, if his future here still isn't looking up. 

This is not to negate your point that the team needs to develop assets. Very young players are  not always easy to evaluate in the draft. Some are able to develop into NBA players, but some aren't. That's on any team, not just the Mavs. Hopefully, they can get better at player development and/or make more fortuitous choices going forward.

[mvossman]

I think the Bullock starting could work out.  We will see though.  I was thinking a different direction though.  

Either way, if we are starting Powell or WCS at center, I think who ever we start is going to be limited in the long run.   

I prefer Hardaway off the bench.  I want him entering the game firing.   I think when he is a starter, he sort of takes a back seat to begin games.  I like him coming in when the pace is up after the start of the game and being aggressive shooting the ball.

So, I know there is some ego to start and that is normal.   The bigger concern though is who is going to finish games.  I think Jalen is the better fit over Hardaway.   If this is true, this could be a bigger issue and also something to consider moving forward the next few years.

I agree with all of this.  We just paid 19 for a 6th man who may not even be a good fit to finish games, presumably because we could not get anyone better.  We really need higher level starters, but if we could not improve on THJ, I would have preferred Caruso + Theis for the same money.

[KillerLeft]

Under normal circumstances, you would expect a team's second-year first-round pick to be in the rotation, even if only for 10-15 minutes. That might lead us to consider why Green is still warming the bench. 

Not only that (though I agree) but also, let's consider why not one but THREE new players were brought in through free agency who all seem suited for roles that overlap at least a little with what Green's projected NBA role is. In other words, rather than pencil Green in for minutes when planning this season, the front office decided to put THREE more people ahead of him (in addition to DFS and THJ, who were already ahead of him) in the rotation to start the season. 

I suppose it's possible that this was just a mistake. I suppose it's possible that they're completely underestimating Green. But, I don't understand the surprise at how little he's playing to this point. To me, that was a clear indication of what the Mavericks think about Green, at least relative to what he can provide right now.

[KillerLeft]

What I am trying to say is about developing an asset. A decent team should be able to survive 15 minutes per night from a low producing rookie, who they want to develop and (if nothing else), increase his trade value. For some reason Mavs decided they rather do this kind of thing with WCS and Powell. Playing two guys 15 minutes per night each despite minimum production they provide.

Sorry, my reply was mostly aimed at @"hakeemfan". I should've just quoted him to be clear, but I got lazy. 

I agree with the concept of developing assets, and I agree that Green hasn't panned out. But, I'm not sure I agree that it's because he hasn't been given enough time in real games. Maybe it has, or maybe he's demonstrating in practice that he can't learn the system, doesn't rotate when he should, doesn't move the ball to the right place, whatever. We just don't know. But, what we should know is that they don't think the team would be better off giving him minutes right now, for whatever reason.

[chaparral]

Not only that (though I agree) but also, let's consider why not one but THREE new players were brought in through free agency who all seem suited for roles that overlap at least a little with what Green's projected NBA role is. In other words, rather than pencil Green in for minutes when planning this season, the front office decided to put THREE more people ahead of him (in addition to DFS and THJ, who were already ahead of him) in the rotation to start the season. 

I suppose it's possible that this was just a mistake. I suppose it's possible that they're completely underestimating Green. But, I don't understand the surprise at how little he's playing to this point. To me, that was a clear indication of what the Mavericks think about Green, at least relative to what he can provide right now.

If the new MBT did not think to highly of Green this offseason, then why pick-up his TO for next season?  Couldn't they have just waited until the end of this season?

[mavsluvr]

Reluctantly, I'm starting to buy into the idea that he can be a plus on defense again. He has certainly had several 5-6 minute stretches this season during which that was undeniably the case. 

The true test will be: can he survive in a big game when the other team implements a plan to attack his slow feet in space? So far, we've seen that he can hang (and even win) on defense in the paint. I just need to see him win as a screen defender without resorting to drop coverage a few times. Once that ability is established I'll feel a ton better about where the team is.

Those are all good points. 

I was responding to Hakeem's seeming suggestion that we need to get Josh Green in the starting lineup to help cover for KP's defensive deficiencies. I find it a depressing idea that we need to accept that KP is a guy they need to find a way to hide on that end, especially if it is an accurate assessment.

The poor interior defense is not all on KP or even the bigs in general. They can cover only so many instances of the perimeter guys not containing the opponent. KP has been able to hold his own in stretches, but I found the relentless march to the basket of the Wizards and Cavs a bit alarming. The pick and roll is a whole set of issues on its own.

Anyway, glad to see that KP's increased mobility is enabling him to get back in his defensive groove a little, and hope he can extend his improved performance to more than a few 5-6 minute stretches per 19 games.

[KillerLeft]

If the new MBT did not think to highly of Green this offseason, then why pick-up his TO for next season?  Couldn't they have just waited until the end of this season?

That's a great question/point. I'm not sure I can answer it. Maybe there was some sort of advantage to doing so from a business perspective? 

And, the interpretation of all of this is just my opinion, but to me, these are facts:

1) Carlisle didn't play him last year. Kidd has played him even less this year (so far - this could change). 
2) Bullock, SBrown and even Ntilikina represent a more difficult path to minutes for Green here. 

I just don't see how we can reconcile the above without coming to the conclusion that getting Green into the rotation is simply not a priority for the Mavericks right now. It's totally fine if people want to call this a mistake on their part. I lean more towards trusting their assessment, but I've always been more of a "pro-coach" thinker.

[omahen]

they don't think the team would be better off giving him minutes right now

And I am ok with that. Because I want him to gain experience and improve so he will be able to make team better in the future

[mavsluvr]

If the new MBT did not think to highly of Green this offseason, then why pick-up his TO for next season?  Couldn't they have just waited until the end of this season?

Believe the deadline to pick up that option was November 1. One of the CBA experts can correct me if I'm wrong.

[KillerLeft]

Anyway, glad to see that KP's increased mobility is enabling him to get back in his defensive groove a little, and hope he can extend his improved performance to more than a few 5-6 minute stretches per 19 games.

I agree with all of your points. 

For clarification on the last one re my "5-6 minute stretches"...I think there have been a few stretches like that where he has been DOMINANT, defensively. That's what I was talking about. I think there have be a similar amount of times during which he has been super rough. In between, for most his time on the floor this season, he has been pretty good, imo, which is a huge improvement over last season. 

I just wanted to clarify because I have a huge "KP Hater" target on my back around here. I want to be fair with how I articulate things when talking about him. 

In general, I think he's having a good season, so far. I think credit for that should be given to the coaching staff and to the player, himself. 

I'd still trade him at the first reasonable opportunity.

[mavsluvr]

I agree with all of your points. 

For clarification on the last one re my "5-6 minute stretches"...I think there have been a few stretches like that where he has been DOMINANT, defensively. That's what I was talking about. I think there have be a similar amount of times during which he has been super rough. In between, for most his time on the floor this season, he has been pretty good, imo, which is a huge improvement over last season. 

I just wanted to clarify because I have a huge "KP Hater" target on my back around here. I want to be fair with how I articulate things when talking about him. 

In general, I think he's having a good season, so far. I think credit for that should be given to the coaching staff and to the player, himself. 

I'd still trade him at the first reasonable opportunity.

Thanks for the clarification.

[KillerLeft]

And I am ok with that. Because I want him to gain experience and improve so he will be able to make team better in the future

Right, but that's sort of built into what I'm saying. 

Do you allow any room in your thinking for the possibility that they've determined he's not even ready for that? Like, they possibly think meaningful minutes might be too much for him and shake his confidence, having the opposite of your desired effect? 

Or, that maybe they've already determined that he's just not ever going to make it, so what's the point?

Or, that maybe the team just isn't in a position to succeed right now while maintaining an approach like that one with Green? 

Is it your opinion that Green will definitely improve if given time, as you suggest? That the absence of consistent playing time is the only thing holding him back? I would be pissed about the situation if I felt that way. I'm just not sure we, as fans, have enough info to make that determination.

[chaparral]

I'm hoping that Kidd is trying to figure out what the new guys have prior to 12/15.  Knowing he has Green on a rookie deal for a few more years.

I still do not want to think that our beloved old MBT struck out on all 3 of the 2020 draft picks.

[KillerLeft]

I still do not want to think that our beloved old MBT struck out on all 3 of the 2020 draft picks.

I HEARD THAT, MY DUDE.

[mavsluvr]

From a short look at the rookie contract third- and fourth-year options rule --

-- Team options have to be exercised a season in advance. This year's deadline was 11/1.

-- The team announced their exercise of Green's option in mid-October. 

-- The vast majority of these options are exercised, even if the rookie is not doing much, as they are so cheap.

Again, an expert around here can correct me, if warranted.