Trade & FA 2023-24: 76ers Believe They Have A Shot at PG13

[loki]

Brown said he was shocked at being traded after he was courted hard by Haliburton and other Pacers. But I've come to learn nothing shocks me when it comes to the NBA.

I guess his agent left out the detail that the entire point of a massive overpay on a 1 year deal was to use him as trade filler.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Another thing to think about, maybe Hardaway is used in a deal like this with the intention of Green being used in a way that nets us a PF.  Would really balance stuff out.

A few thoughts…

Grimes fits into our TPE, so we don’t have to send out actual salary.

He’s extension eligible this summer, so similar to Green last summer.

Adding him here could make any of Green, Hardy or THJ expendible.  Maybe any two of them.  Killer made the point recently that we’d miss THJ’s ability as a “movement shooter” if he were traded.  Grimes isn’t a great finisher or creator, so think THJ with better D.  That isn’t a bad thing.  He’s a touch shorter than THJ, but has a reported 6’ 8” wingspan (was Nate Hinton on that same U of H team?)

NY is a reported destination for Brown.  I could see Fournier/Grimes outgoing with Dallas supplying some of the compensation to Toronto in order to get Grimes.  Examples: We have Toronto’s 2025 second.  NY could trade the Dallas 2024 first and we could remove some/all of the protections.  Hardy could possibly fit into such a deal also.

We currently have roles here for THJ/Exum and Green.  If Grimes were here taking the THJ spot then THJ could be outgoing for a PF/C type.  I still think there would be plenty of room for Grimes/Green and Exum on this roster in such a scenario.  Luka guards forwards, so you need bodies who can guard 1’s and 2’s.  Between that trio and Kyrie, you’d be pretty set.

NY is also mentioned as a Murray destination.  Maybe Dallas gets in the middle of that in some way (though I haven’t thought through that one yet).

---

I guess his agent left out the detail that the entire point of a massive overpay on a 1 year deal was to use him as trade filler.

He had to know given the TO in the contract that he might be an attractive trade chip.

[HoosierDaddyKidd]

Christian Koloko was waived as part of the Siakam trade yesterday.  He was one of the better rookies in the NBA last year so this is really surprising.  He has missed this entire season thus far due to a vague "respiratory issue".  It must be something career-threatening for the Raptors to give up on this promising young player.

Nevertheless, I think the Mavs should take a gamble on Koloko.  If he recovers, he gives a really talented defensive big.  We would have to cut Markieff Morris who is useless.  Why not make a bet on Koloko for the rest of the season?

Koloko has serious blood clot issues it has been reported. It's possible he may not ever play again, similar to Chris Bosh being forced to retire.

[RGP1981]

A few thoughts…

Grimes fits into our TPE, so we don’t have to send out actual salary.

He’s extension eligible this summer, so similar to Green last summer.

That's a good point. If Grimes can be extended for a dollar amount similar to or lower than Green's, well hey, that's the SG position sorted out at a very reasonable total amount.

Grimes isn’t a great finisher or creator, so think THJ with better D.

If Grimes were here taking the THJ spot then THJ could be outgoing for a PF/C type. I still think there would be plenty of room for Grimes/Green and Exum on this roster in such a scenario.  Luka guards forwards, so you need bodies who can guard 1’s and 2’s.  Between that trio and Kyrie, you’d be pretty set.

Agreed, there is plenty of room and a need for bodies who can defend 1s and 2s, especially in Luka-only no-Kyrie minutes. You can use any two of Grimes/Green/Exum as the Guards.

Also agreed, Grimes is THJ with better D and doesn't just jack up shots. 

Grimes isn’t a great finisher or creator, so think THJ with better D.

If Grimes were here taking the THJ spot then THJ could be outgoing for a PF/C type. I still think there would be plenty of room for Grimes/Green and Exum on this roster in such a scenario.  Luka guards forwards, so you need bodies who can guard 1’s and 2’s.  Between that trio and Kyrie, you’d be pretty set.

With Lively at C, I don't know about needing a PF/C type. Kleber is already there for that. So whoever is brought in at PF needs to have good foot-speed and some length. I think the team needs a PF/SF type or an SF/PF type more, someone who can defend the good big wings like Kawhi, PG3, Durant, Tatum.

If the FO can get Jerami, then I'd much rather Jerami as the 3rd scoring option behind Luka and Kyrie instead of THJ. Then when Luka or Kyrie sits, Jerami gets bumped up to being 2nd option on offense, which I would again prefer compared to THJ being 2nd option. This role fits Jerami too. He likes a more prominent role on offense but he can't be the 1st or 2nd initiator on offense regularly. The 3rd option behind Luka and Kyrie is perfect. And the best or only place for him to function properly as a 2nd option is also behind extra-creative 1-on-1 guys like Luka or Kyrie, when one rests.

That being said, I wish Jerami was 2-3 inches taller and 3-5 years younger.

[Nowitzki Way]

Grimes fits into our TPE, so we don’t have to send out actual salary.

Grimes played 19 minutes and had 0 points. 0 of 5 from deep.

If they were showcasing him, that didn't work too well. I dont mind his value going down some.

[DanSchwartzgan]

 
With Lively at C, I don't know about needing a PF/C type. Kleber is already there for that. So whoever is brought in at PF needs to have good foot-speed and some length. I think the team needs a PF/SF type or an SF/PF type more, someone who can defend the good big wings like Kawhi, PG3, Durant, Tatum.

If the FO can get Jerami, then I'd much rather Jerami as the 3rd scoring option behind Luka and Kyrie instead of THJ.  

Hardwood Knocks just did a Pod where they picked one trade target for each team (no repeats).  They picked Grant for Dallas for the reasons you listed.  There are several players in the J. Grant class who fit what you are talking about (3rd scoring option with more size than THJ).  The problem I see with that group is you are still counting on Maxi's health and Lively's ability to stay out of foul trouble.  It seems like a formula to give away playoff games.  

The other thing about J. Grant (in particular) that we have to come to grips with is cost.  What would Portland want?  They have guards, so absentmindedly throwing Green/Hardy into a deal doesn't make sense.  It would probably take OMax and 2027 plus salary (maybe you get away with GWill and Holmes as the filler, but it might have to be THJ to a third team and OMax/Pick).  I like Grant, but he's not the over-the-top final move and OMax/2027 is a lot.

However, the class of 4's with better D and better rebounding don't tend to create scoring or hit 3's the same as the J. Grant's of the world.  I still like WCJ as my favorite for this spot, but I see him able to play next to and in place of Lively.  He is hitting 3's and has the footspeed to guard on the perimeter.  Having one of WCJ or Lively waiting near the rim when the other gets switched onto a ball-handler on the perimeter is attractive to me.  Other's don't see it (despite the fact he played a ton next to Bamba last season).  I also think Orlando is arguably the best THJ destination out there.  I would really like a world where Carter was acquired for THJ and another 3/D guy like Grimes could be had for Hardy/2025 2nd.

[Winter]

Dan, you convinced me of this two days ago - even though I have concerns about his health. I posted two Youtube Videos (below) - one of WCJ's offense and one of his defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fheoA938M9M&t=120s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwT0kVOorQ

My feeling about him is that if you're going to roll the dice on a trade, a trade for WCJ could make more of a difference than any other player I've seen in the rumor mill. The price for him will likely reflect his health problems, otherwise he'd likely be out of our price range - or simply unavailable for a trade.

[surfpuckmd]

With Lively at C, I don't know about needing a PF/C type. Kleber is already there for that. So whoever is brought in at PF needs to have good foot-speed and some length. I think the team needs a PF/SF type or an SF/PF type more, someone who can defend the good big wings like Kawhi, PG3, Durant, Tatum.

If the FO can get Jerami, then I'd much rather Jerami as the 3rd scoring option behind Luka and Kyrie instead of THJ. Then when Luka or Kyrie sits, Jerami gets bumped up to being 2nd option on offense, which I would again prefer compared to THJ being 2nd option. This role fits Jerami too. He likes a more prominent role on offense but he can't be the 1st or 2nd initiator on offense regularly. The 3rd option behind Luka and Kyrie is perfect.  And the best or only place for him to function properly as a 2nd option is also behind extra-creative 1-on-1 guys like Luka or Kyrie, when one rests.

That being said, I wish Jerami was 2-3 inches taller and 3-5 years younger.

The problem is that Kleber has looked bad when he has played this year.  He looked bad last year as well.  Also, he's barely played this season.  I'd be more than happy to swap out THJ for Grimes but our biggest need is definitely at the 4/5.  

I would also like to obtain Jerami Grant but they don't seem to have him available right now.  If he demands a trade, then he would be a good target.

[surfpuckmd]

However, the class of 4's with better D and better rebounding don't tend to create scoring or hit 3's the same as the J. Grant's of the world.  I still like WCJ as my favorite for this spot, but I see him able to play next to and in place of Lively.  He is hitting 3's and has the footspeed to guard on the perimeter.  Having one of WCJ or Lively waiting near the rim when the other gets switched onto a ball-handler on the perimeter is attractive to me.  Other's don't see it (despite the fact he played a ton next to Bamba last season).  I also think Orlando is arguably the best THJ destination out there.  I would really like a world where Carter was acquired for THJ and another 3/D guy like Grimes could be had for Hardy/2025 2nd.

I think WCJ, Daniel Gafford or Isaiah Stewart would be the three best targets for our needs.  WCJ is probably the one obtainable without draft compensation so that would be my choice as well. He's definitely an injury risk though.

[KillerLeft]

I think WCJ, Daniel Gafford or Isaiah Stewart would be the three best targets for our needs.  WCJ is probably the one obtainable without draft compensation so that would be my choice as well. He's definitely an injury risk though.

All good players, but I do not believe any of them can play the 4 during any meaningful stretch of minutes against a good team. (I know Stewart the least, to be fair, so I'm just guessing on him). 

They also don't appear to fit the "guys at least 6'8" who can dribble" criteria we've been discussing. 

I don't believe backup center is the right place to look.

[surfpuckmd]

All good players, but I do not believe any of them can play the 4 during any meaningful stretch of minutes against a good team. (I know Stewart the least, to be fair, so I'm just guessing on him). 

They also don't appear to fit the "guys at least 6'8" who can dribble" criteria we've been discussing. 

I don't believe backup center is the right place to look.

WCJ can definitely dribble.  He's not Kyrie but he has pretty good handles for a big...almost as good as Naz Reid who would work well here.  WCJ's issue will be if he can defend the perimeter.  I am much less certain of that.  WCJ would hide the weaknesses of our forwards who are small and don't rebound.  I think we definitely need another center.  The issue with a THJ for WCJ trade is that we don't have anyone who replaces THJ.  All of Jaden Hardy's potential seems to have dissolved this year.

I also know the least about Stewart.  I like his advanced stats, rebounding and 3-point percentage.  I haven't watched many Pistons games though.  I've tried to watch a couple but I think watching the Pistons could quickly lead to depression so I stopped.

[mvossman]

Hardwood Knocks just did a Pod where they picked one trade target for each team (no repeats).  They picked Grant for Dallas for the reasons you listed.  There are several players in the J. Grant class who fit what you are talking about (3rd scoring option with more size than THJ).  The problem I see with that group is you are still counting on Maxi's health and Lively's ability to stay out of foul trouble.  It seems like a formula to give away playoff games.  

The other thing about J. Grant (in particular) that we have to come to grips with is cost.  What would Portland want?  They have guards, so absentmindedly throwing Green/Hardy into a deal doesn't make sense.  It would probably take OMax and 2027 plus salary (maybe you get away with GWill and Holmes as the filler, but it might have to be THJ to a third team and OMax/Pick).  I like Grant, but he's not the over-the-top final move and OMax/2027 is a lot.

However, the class of 4's with better D and better rebounding don't tend to create scoring or hit 3's the same as the J. Grant's of the world.  I still like WCJ as my favorite for this spot, but I see him able to play next to and in place of Lively.  He is hitting 3's and has the footspeed to guard on the perimeter.  Having one of WCJ or Lively waiting near the rim when the other gets switched onto a ball-handler on the perimeter is attractive to me.  Other's don't see it (despite the fact he played a ton next to Bamba last season).  I also think Orlando is arguably the best THJ destination out there.  I would really like a world where Carter was acquired for THJ and another 3/D guy like Grimes could be had for Hardy/2025 2nd.

I really like the idea of WCJ.  Watching Winter's highlights makes me think he can play from the perimeter.  I do have some thoughts/concerns:

He didn't play much with Bamba last season, it was the season prior.  Its hard to read too much from that because Bamba sucks.  He has spent every other season (including this one) playing predominantly center.  I feel like he can get away with playing some minutes at PF, but I'm not sure a Lively/WCJ/Luka lineup will work defensively against quicker teams.  I'm not sure he is a guy you can pencil in as a starter every night.

His perimeter numbers have been improving every season, but he still spends the majority of his time down low.  His P&R numbers are not particularly good (and terrible this season).  How much would that change playing next Luka?  My guess is quite a bit, but don't think he will ever be elite at it.

If we bring in a guy like WCJ, what do we do with GWill?  We are already struggling to find a place for him, and WCJ seems like an exact replacement for all the places we are trying to play GWill.

[KillerLeft]

WCJ can definitely dribble.  He's not Kyrie but he has pretty good handles for a big...almost as good as Naz Reid who would work well here.  WCJ's issue will be if he can defend the perimeter.  I am much less certain of that.  WCJ would hide the weaknesses of our forwards who are small and don't rebound.  I think we definitely need another center.  The issue with a THJ for WCJ trade is that we don't have anyone who replaces THJ.  All of Jaden Hardy's potential seems to have dissolved this year.

I also know the least about Stewart.  I like his advanced stats, rebounding and 3-point percentage.  I haven't watched many Pistons games though.  I've tried to watch a couple but I think watching the Pistons could quickly lead to depression so I stopped.

I just don't buy into the idea that size is so important that skill can be ignored to get it. 

You mention Naz Reid. Love him...at center. I think it is beyond a mistake for the Wolves to have THREE highly paid to medium highly paid centers in their rotation, trying to play two of them at a time. I think they have shot themselves in the foot so hard by trying to do that. I believe they will be out of the playoffs in round 1, and I don't feel I need to wait to see who they're playing to predict that. In fact, if I were them, Towns wouldn't make it past this trade deadline on the roster. Having said all of that, at least Reid and KAT can play OFFENSE on the perimeter, even if they can't guard once a team adequately spreads them out. These names we're talking about don't even seem to fit THAT well, as far as I can tell. 

I have no use for two slow, paint-clogging bigs on the court at the same time...on either end of the court. 

The Mavs need to improve shooting, playmaking and above all else DEFENSE (by adding someone who can MOVE, not a bigger traffic cone). I think the FORWARDS who are 6'7"-6'11" represent the more useful rock to turn over. If center is the first position listed for a player, their natural position, I just don't think that's the right guy.

[SleepingHero]

(@TheDunkCentral)
Teams showing interest in Quentin Grimes:

Atlanta Hawks
Memphis Grizzlies
Utah Jazz
Houston Rockets

[mvossman]

Dan, you convinced me of this two days ago - even though I have concerns about his health. I posted two Youtube Videos (below) - one of WCJ's offense and one of his defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fheoA938M9M&t=120s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwT0kVOorQ

My feeling about him is that if you're going to roll the dice on a trade, a trade for WCJ could make more of a difference than any other player I've seen in the rumor mill. The price for him will likely reflect his health problems, otherwise he'd likely be out of our price range - or simply unavailable for a trade.

The offensive highlights are very interesting.  A lot of going to the rim from the perimeter, which is nice.  But the defensive highlights are just a bunch of blocks and a few steals.  Then you look at his stats and he gets less than a block per 36 minutes (his block percentage is roughly 2% which is not rim protection territory).  I would much rather see how he guards the perimeter, and its concerning that there is not a lot of that on the real.

[SleepingHero]

@NetsDaily
Zach Lowe this morning on Spencer Dinwiddie: "It almost looks as if Dinwiddie is on some kind of strike." Heard same thing from a league source.

[Jason Terry]

Mavs get:
Bruce Brown
WCjr

Magic get:
THJ
2028 2nd from Mavs

Raptors get:
Hardy
Holmes
Own 2025 2nd back from Mavs

[Winter]

The offensive highlights are very interesting.  A lot of going to the rim from the perimeter, which is nice.  But the defensive highlights are just a bunch of blocks and a few steals.  Then you look at his stats and he gets less than a block per 36 minutes (his block percentage is roughly 2% which is not rim protection territory).  I would much rather see how he guards the perimeter, and its concerning that there is not a lot of that on the real.

Unfortunately, Youtube has its limitations. I agree with your assessment in general. What interested me was his footwork down low, and how competent he was around the basket

I think any player of interest is going to have strengths and weaknesses, so he will have his. 

But I'm going back to what Cuban has said... and I think we should just bank this: "6'8" or taller, rebounds, can dribble". We should believe that. I think that's why we don't see the Mavs listed in Grimes rumors.

[mvossman]

Unfortunately, Youtube has its limitations. I agree with your assessment in general. What interested me was his footwork down low, and how competent he was around the basket

I think any player of interest is going to have strengths and weaknesses, so he will have his. 

But I'm going back to what Cuban has said... and I think we should just bank this: "6'8" or taller, rebounds, can dribble". We should believe that. I think that's why we don't see the Mavs listed in Grimes rumors.

I remember a couple of offseasons ago when Dragic was available and Cuban specifically said they were looking for a playmaker with size and didn't end up doing anything.  I think Cuban has said a lot of things like this that never happen (and sometimes something completely different happens).  I've learned not to take Cuban too seriously with these comments.

[BoredAssistant]

To be clear I think rebounding was the third attribute Cuban mentioned but I'm not sure. I looked up the interview but I could only find the first two 20 minute segments. The last 20 minutes are hard to find I guess.