Trade & FA 2023-24: PHX Wants Lebron+Bronny| Hawks to Shop Hunter

[ThisIStheYear]

Maybe something more simple (leaving out Rui avoids BYC and hard cap for Phoenix).   BTW, I don’t think we have to accommodate Kyrie’s max in a deal with LA.  They can’t get there through cap room and $46.9mm is just a killer to their ability to fill the roster and stay under the apron.  Trade matching is one issue in setting his number.  But, paying who they want to keep and using their exception are also factors.

Phoenix Out:  Ayton (32.4)                       Phoenix In:  Beasley, Bamba and Reggie (36.5)
LA Out:  Beasley, Vandy, Bamba (31.4).    LA In:  Kyrie (up to 39.35)
Dallas Out:  Kyrie, Reggie (up to 49.8).     Dallas In:  Ayton, Vandy (37.1)

Dallas is probably owed some draft compensation here.  If THJ needs to be in instead of Reggie, I suspect Shamet comes to Dallas.  So, Phoenix gets Beasley, Bamba and THJ (44.7) for Ayton and Shamet (42.7).  Dallas gets Ayton, Shamet and Vandy (47.3) for Kyrie and THJ (up to 57.2).  Kyrie’s number doesn’t change because the LA outgoing didn’t change.

This makes sense for Dallas without the pick. Ayton fills a need and will be very good in a better situation. Vandy is a massive upgrade on Reggie (bottom 5 among rotation players last year based on Raptor and Lebron). Plus, Dallas gets much younger. The problem is Phoenix. They get 3 poo poo players and wasted roster spots. No way they’d do this. But it’s a nice thought. Dallas would more than recoup what they gave up for Kyrie, which is the main goal.

[DanSchwartzgan]

This makes sense for Dallas without the pick. Ayton fills a need and will be very good in a better situation. Vandy is a massive upgrade on Reggie (bottom 5 among rotation players last year based on Raptor and Lebron). Plus, Dallas gets much younger. The problem is Phoenix. They get 3 poo poo players and wasted roster spots. No way they’d do this. But it’s a nice thought. Dallas would more than recoup what they gave up for Kyrie, which is the main goal.

You should probably speak with BigDirk41.  I agree that Dallas comes out well in this.  Give me Ayton/Vandy over Dinwiddie/DFS all day (swapping unprotected 29's is a wash).

The final quarter of Bill Simmon's podcast with Ryan Rusillo yesterday was an excellent listen on the new CBA.  They thought this is exactly the kind of thing Phoenix HAS to do.  It was pretty fascinating to hear them go team by team and see how challenging the new second apron is going to be.  Their main point was that the middle class of the NBA is going to get screwed.  Lots of good players are going to be available over the next 2-3 years.  They didn't completely have some of the timing of this right.  The phase in of certain aspects will give teams the choice of drastic measures now or in 24.  Some might wait until 2025.  But, things are going to change.

[StepBackJay]

This makes sense for Dallas without the pick. Ayton fills a need and will be very good in a better situation. Vandy is a massive upgrade on Reggie (bottom 5 among rotation players last year based on Raptor and Lebron). Plus, Dallas gets much younger. The problem is Phoenix. They get 3 poo poo players and wasted roster spots. No way they’d do this. But it’s a nice thought. Dallas would more than recoup what they gave up for Kyrie, which is the main goal.

I agree

[DanSchwartzgan]

Interesting idea from "Sir Charles in Charge" site.  Plays off of SA's desire to move into the top 10 (presumably to draft a guard):

#10/Bertans for Collins/Graham and Atlanta's 2025.

SA has up to 7 first round picks between 23, 24 and 25.  So, it doesn't have to be this pick.  Collins is UFA a year from now. He's an interesting name we haven't talked about.  Spreads the floor some.  Switchable defender (fits scheme) who also blocks some shots.  Not a great rebounder and extensive injury history.  He has routinely been a net positive on-court even with bad teams.  Graham could be the third guard behind Luka and Kyrie.  He has two seasons left at about MLE money, but second season is only guaranteed for $2.8mm (so a very positive asset at the TDL).

My question would be whether you'd rather have the depth with Graham, or no returning salary and a TE.  It feels like the Collins/Bertans/picks parts of this would be good for both teams (except, you just can't count on Collins being an 82 game guy).  Given the value of Graham as an expiring deal (essentially), I'd probably take him.  The pick doesn't have to be the Atlanta pick.  I'd be very interested in adding SA's #33 as part of this.

Collins    Powell     McGee
Luka      Maxi        Morris
Green    Reggie     Lawson
THJ       Hardy      Holiday
Irving    Graham    #33

Note, this team didn't need to spend the MLE and is under the tax.  It can trade a chunk of salary between Reggie and Graham at the TDL along with the Atlanta 2025 first and the Dallas 2027.

BTW, if one wanted to still do a deal for Ayton, doing it at the same time as the rest of this makes the deal large enough that THJ/McGee is a trade match for Ayton without the need to include Green.

[StepBackJay]

Hear me out guys....

https://twitter.com/StepBackJay77/status...5840184320

[Chicagojk]

Hear me out guys....

https://twitter.com/StepBackJay77/status...5840184320

I just don't know if that Nets trade is enough.    Adding DFS and O'neal would be intriguing.  But adding Green to the trade is tough.    Green is on the up and should be able to sign for a team friendly contract this year.  Bullock was awful last year but I can see a world where he is a comparable player to DFS and O'neal next year, I think.   So I think I would pass on this trade.  But maybe I am in the minority.

For the Utah trade, they mention two late round firsts in addition to 16.   Utah has pick #28 this year but don't have any more picks.  Is that a  future pick?   I would probably be against this trade as well.  I just want to upgrade the talent.   I like Olynyk, but not sure he moves the needle to where we want to go.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Hear me out guys....

https://twitter.com/StepBackJay77/status...5840184320

Nope.  Josh Green is arguably the best player in this deal (certainly is over the next 3 seasons).  Dallas refused to put him in the package for Kyrie.  No way they include him in a deal for this bunch of mediocrity.

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

I never had the notion that Josh Green took over games last season.
To me, those games where he scored most isn't him taking control.
He was, in my mind, still holding back.

It's (still) part of who he is. He defers too much, even if he doesn't have to.

I know JG has praised JKidd for his development, but IMHo, JG needs someone who'd tell him to "Go all-in". Someone who'd encourage him to take over. JKidd's offense is too Luka and Kyrie centric, I don't think that kind of offense unlocks what JG is truly capable of.. but still.. I'm quite sure, Josh Green is legit 2 way player. And a good one at that. He's going to ball if the coaches let him.

So.. nope. JG is too valueble for a DFS+Oneal.

[BigDirk41]

Hear me out guys....

https://twitter.com/StepBackJay77/status...5840184320

Appreciate the work, but no way if Josh Green is included.

[StepBackJay]

I just don't know if that Nets trade is enough.    Adding DFS and O'neal would be intriguing.  But adding Green to the trade is tough.    Green is on the up and should be able to sign for a team friendly contract this year.  Bullock was awful last year but I can see a world where he is a comparable player to DFS and O'neal next year, I think.   So I think I would pass on this trade.  But maybe I am in the minority.

For the Utah trade, they mention two late round firsts in addition to 16.   Utah has pick #28 this year but don't have any more picks.  Is that a  future pick?   I would probably be against this trade as well.  I just want to upgrade the talent.   I like Olynyk, but not sure he moves the needle to where we want to go.

They have pick 16 this year from Minnesota I believe.

First the Nets part of the trade: they have a surplus of veteran wings that they don't really need for a rebuild. Green fits more what they need. Bullock would just be salary filler for them. The real prize is pick 16 and Green. For Mavs they get 2 starting-capable wings and more picks that they can use for depth or other trades.

Back to the Utah trade, KO is just turning Bertans into a usable rotation player. KO would fit the Mavs well. The more important part of the trade is turning 10 into 16 and 28.

After all this maneuvering you are left with a top 8 of: Luka, Kai, O'Neale, DFS, Maxi, KO, THJ, Hardy + 3 picks which likely are going to be used in part to get a starting center. I haven't added up the salaries but you are probably out of the full MLE bc of the salaries you would be adding, absent other moves. 

21, 22, 28 could be used for Turner, Ayton, who knows either the night of the draft or after.

[StepBackJay]

Nope.  Josh Green is arguably the best player in this deal (certainly is over the next 3 seasons).  Dallas refused to put him in the package for Kyrie.  No way they include him in a deal for this bunch of mediocrity.

I guess my view of Green is lower than others. I am not sure he is worth more than a late first round pick.

[StepBackJay]

Appreciate the work, but no way if Josh Green is included.

My issue with Green is he plays guard and Mavs have too many guards and not enough forwards. Mavs tried to play him at SF and he doesn't do as well there. He is a year away from a new contract and I would like to cash in on him before he gets paid too much money. He is a good player but Mavs tried him in a few different roles with limited success. He had a stretch of like 4 games where he was unstoppable but that was a limited sample size and then he came back down to earth.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

I guess my view of Green is lower than others. I am not sure he is worth more than a late first round pick.

I tend to agree. He needs to take a big jump in productivity to make me a believer. He has the tools especially defensively, but he plays too passively at times and defers way too often.  This year we'll see if he's more than just hype.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I guess my view of Green is lower than others. I am not sure he is worth more than a late first round pick.

Oh yeah, we definitely don't agree on this.  JG is exactly what everyone is looking for.  +D, high percentage on 3's.  Can destroy closeouts, runs the floor and a good mover of the ball.  I literally wouldn't trade him for DFS AND a late first round pick.  People have underappreciated him from the beginning because of who he wasn't.  But what he has become is incredibly valuable.

Unrelated to your idea (but related to Brooklyn), I've cooled considerably to the idea of dumping salary to them.  They need to get under the tax this season (repeater) and signing Cam Johnson and taking on a salary into their TPE (like Bertans) isn't going to allow that to happen.

That leaves SA as the only team that can facilitate a salary dump before 7/1 ($22.1mm according to Spotrac).  If it turns out we really aren't meeting with guys who might go at #10 and are meeting with guys in the late first or early second, I'd keep an eye on SA.  I really like some things about the SCIC trade idea I posted above.  It requires us to think of improvement as a two step process with the second step being what we can get from trading picks and using expiring contracts like Graham and Reggie.  BTW, you know who is a trade match for Graham + Reggie?  Draymond.  Front court is now Draymond, Collins and Maxi.  Mix and match any combination.  All of them are very switchable.  D goes up dramatically.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Interesting idea from "Sir Charles in Charge" site.  Plays off of SA's desire to move into the top 10 (presumably to draft a guard):

#10/Bertans for Collins/Graham and Atlanta's 2025.

SA has up to 7 first round picks between 23, 24 and 25.  So, it doesn't have to be this pick.  Collins is UFA a year from now. He's an interesting name we haven't talked about.  Spreads the floor some.  Switchable defender (fits scheme) who also blocks some shots.  Not a great rebounder and extensive injury history.  He has routinely been a net positive on-court even with bad teams.  Graham could be the third guard behind Luka and Kyrie.  He has two seasons left at about MLE money, but second season is only guaranteed for $2.8mm (so a very positive asset at the TDL).

My question would be whether you'd rather have the depth with Graham, or no returning salary and a TE.  It feels like the Collins/Bertans/picks parts of this would be good for both teams (except, you just can't count on Collins being an 82 game guy).  Given the value of Graham as an expiring deal (essentially), I'd probably take him.  The pick doesn't have to be the Atlanta pick.  I'd be very interested in adding SA's #33 as part of this.

Collins    Powell     McGee
Luka      Maxi        Morris
Green    Reggie     Lawson
THJ       Hardy      Holiday
Irving    Graham    #33

Note, this team didn't need to spend the MLE and is under the tax.  It can trade a chunk of salary between Reggie and Graham at the TDL along with the Atlanta 2025 first and the Dallas 2027.

BTW, if one wanted to still do a deal for Ayton, doing it at the same time as the rest of this makes the deal large enough that THJ/McGee is a trade match for Ayton without the need to include Green.

IMO, Collins is an early retirement candidate.  That finger that refuses to heal scares me.  He had his worst season last year since his rookie year.  As you mention he's not a good rebounder.

---

Oh yeah, we definitely don't agree on this.  JG is exactly what everyone is looking for.  +D, high percentage on 3's.  Can destroy closeouts, runs the floor and a good mover of the ball.  I literally wouldn't trade him for DFS AND a late first round pick.  People have underappreciated him from the beginning because of who he wasn't.  But what he has become is incredibly valuable.

Unrelated to your idea (but related to Brooklyn), I've cooled considerably to the idea of dumping salary to them.  They need to get under the tax this season (repeater) and signing Cam Johnson and taking on a salary into their TPE (like Bertans) isn't going to allow that to happen.

That leaves SA as the only team that can facilitate a salary dump before 7/1 ($22.1mm according to Spotrac).  If it turns out we really aren't meeting with guys who might go at #10 and are meeting with guys in the late first or early second, I'd keep an eye on SA.  I really like some things about the SCIC trade idea I posted above.  It requires us to think of improvement as a two step process with the second step being what we can get from trading picks and using expiring contracts like Graham and Reggie.  BTW, you know who is a trade match for Graham + Reggie?  Draymond.  Front court is now Draymond, Collins and Maxi.  Mix and match any combination.  All of them are very switchable.  D goes up dramatically.

Agreed.  Green's productivity will increase.  It's that effective (low output albeit) production that tells me that.

[omahen]

IMO, Collins is an early retirement candidate.  That finger that refuses to heal scares me.  He had his worst season last year since his rookie year.  As you mention he's not a good rebounder.

Dan is speaking about San Antonio Collins, not Atlanta one.

I am basically against all money saving trades. Neither Collins nor Graham are not nearly worth compared to what #10 could develop into. This kind of guys should be obtained for vet min or exception money, not using #10 pick, imho. If I am trading #10, it is for an established starter. Otherwise rather keep it.

[surfpuckmd]

Maybe something more simple (leaving out Rui avoids BYC and hard cap for Phoenix).   BTW, I don’t think we have to accommodate Kyrie’s max in a deal with LA.  They can’t get there through cap room and $46.9mm is just a killer to their ability to fill the roster and stay under the apron.  Trade matching is one issue in setting his number.  But, paying who they want to keep and using their exception are also factors.

Phoenix Out:  Ayton (32.4)                       Phoenix In:  Beasley, Bamba and Reggie (36.5)
LA Out:  Beasley, Vandy, Bamba (31.4).    LA In:  Kyrie (up to 39.35)
Dallas Out:  Kyrie, Reggie (up to 49.8).     Dallas In:  Ayton, Vandy (37.1)

Dallas is probably owed some draft compensation here.  If THJ needs to be in instead of Reggie, I suspect Shamet comes to Dallas.  So, Phoenix gets Beasley, Bamba and THJ (44.7) for Ayton and Shamet (42.7).  Dallas gets Ayton, Shamet and Vandy (47.3) for Kyrie and THJ (up to 57.2).  Kyrie’s number doesn’t change because the LA outgoing didn’t change.

I think Ayton would be a poor fit here.  I also think he's a terrible contract.  He doesn't defend well at the rim.  He doesn't space the floor.  He's a big who doesn't draw fouls (shoots 3 FT per game).  He has serious effort issues.  He couldn't get along with Monty Williams-  a good coach who his players generally like.  I can't imagine him suddenly getting along better with coach Kidd who is both malignant and incompetent.  

Ayton has the ability to be a top 30 player but is nowhere near that level currently.  I believe he's currently a really bad contract who was paid based on potential improvement.  I don't think he showed any improvement this most recent season.

Not only he Kyrie Irving a vastly superior player to Ayton but Porzingis is much better as well.

I think we'd be better off letting Kyrie Irving walk off to the Lakers than taking Deandre Ayton's contract on.  There are not many competitive teams with significant cap space this summer.  I believe we could sign a couple quality role players via free agency should Kyrie Irving go elsewhere. 

I think our best option though is clearly keeping Kyrie Irving on the Mavericks.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Dan is speaking about San Antonio Collins, not Atlanta one.

I am basically against all money saving trades. Neither Collins nor Graham are not nearly worth compared to what #10 could develop into. This kind of guys should be obtained for vet min or exception money, not using #10 pick, imho. If I am trading #10, it is for an established starter. Otherwise rather keep it.

Don't forget the unprotected 2025 from Atlanta.  I like Collins as a big in the rotation, but he has to be supplemented given his injury history.  Graham does nothing for me, but his contract structure and that pick are a means to an end.  If that Atlanta pick, Reggie and Graham landed you Draymond and Collins in your starting lineup, that isn't a money saving move in the least.  It is reworking your frontcourt and the cost was basically #10 and Reggie.

One note, if this is done in June as one big trade, Dallas has to add another body (McGee) as Bertans/Reggie misses by $54k.  Dallas salary is relatively low here, so this could be a S&T of Draymond in July also.  Personally, I think better to knock it all out in June.  If it is a S&T, you have about $70mm to work with for KI and DG before you hit the first apron.

Collins    Powell
Green     Maxi
Green     THJ
Luka       Hardy
KI          TP MLE

[ItsGoTime]

Dan is speaking about San Antonio Collins, not Atlanta one.

I am basically against all money saving trades. Neither Collins nor Graham are not nearly worth compared to what #10 could develop into. This kind of guys should be obtained for vet min or exception money, not using #10 pick, imho. If I am trading #10, it is for an established starter. Otherwise rather keep it.

Yes, #10 HAS to be a hit no matter what we do with it.

[Jakeospikez]

Not really interested in dealing with the Spurs for #10. They have a bunch of junk from a tanking team they're trying to offload in hopes of getting Cason Wallace. Do you really want to help a division rival with giving them a point of attack defender to hound Luka for the next decade to go along with Victor protecting the rim? Sounds absolutely horrible to help these guys out for some of their trash. I'm not really that interested in Keldon Johnson even let alone Zach Collins. Graham is negative value. Picks in the 10-20 range this year are way more important to the Mavs right now than future picks. I'm sure there's better deals out there.