Trade & FA 2023-24: 76ers Believe They Have A Shot at PG13| Jazz to Shop Collins

[mvossman]

The thing that I'm most interested in is the THJ for Bojan part of this.  I don't want to pay an unprotected first for that, but if I can fill another hole simultaneously, I'm willing to talk.  Someone like Stewart at age 22 gives you someone who will still be contributing when that pick is made (Bojan won't, but he'd help tremendously in the here and now).

As I was reading what you wrote above I was thinking that the same could be largely said about GWill.  People cite him as a small-ball five, but he's not a rim protector and not great on the perimeter defensively either.  If you consider Williams and Stewart to be a wash defensively (and I'm not sure that's true) you are basically trading Stewart's rebounding and beef for GWill's higher 3%.  

I'm not saying you are wrong.  In fact, your last sentence is well put.  We just won't know what he looks like here until he's here.  The stink of being on a Detroit team is pervasive.  Stewart is rated as a good defender and his first two years he had a block rate higher than Maxi's best two years (and we consider Maxi a rim protector).  If he can hit 37% of his 3's, he can absolutely play next to Lively.   But, I'm not paying an unprotected pick for Stewart.  I'm paying the pick because I get the Bojan upgrade AND Stewart.

I'm with you on the Grant comparison.  He appears to be a tweener as well.  No rebounding or rim protection as a PF, but not defensive quickness you want from a SF.  I think your push GWill to the bench plan is probably the route to go.

We are on different pages on the Timmy for Bojan deal.  Part of it is that you are more about this season and I am more about the future, but I'm not even that much of a fan for this season.  Bogan is a better offense player and would make the offense better, and he is bigger and we need more size, but what we really need is defense and rebounding and Bojan doesn't really provide either.  I mean I would be fine with swapping the two, but I'm not interested in sending out significant assets to do it.  We would still be a very good offensive team that has major issues with defense and rebounding and not that much closer to contending.

[vfromlmf]

I was with you all the way til the end.  I would start either DJJ or Exum with Stewart and push GWill to the bench.

If I'm being totally honest, I agree with you. I have both Exum and DJJ ahead of GWill at this point, especially guarding the point of attack. Exum has been the biggest surprise. That said, there's a decent case for any of the three to start. 

By the way, take a look at Spencer Dinwiddie's first 25 games in Dallas, and then look at Exum's numbers in December. I hope we'll see some Luka-Kyrie-Exum minutes when everyone's healthy.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Bogan is a better offense player and would make the offense better, and he is bigger and we need more size, but what we really need is defense and rebounding and Bojan doesn't really provide either.  I mean I would be fine with swapping the two, but I'm not interested in sending out significant assets to do it.  We would still be a very good offensive team that has major issues with defense and rebounding and not that much closer to contending.

Yeah, there is a number out there that when we hold teams under 120 D-Rating we are undefeated (120 is basically the worst team in the league defensively).

The question is how you get there.  The major difference between Bojan and THJ is Bojan is a creator for himself and for others and you aren't giving up anything in terms of 3 point shooting.  If you have any two of Luka, Kyrie and Bojan on the floor, you can run 3 defenders at the other positions.  You can't say that for THJ as he shoots, but requires another ball handler to be on the floor if you want two of them.

So, pick any two of the ball handlers (Luka, Kyrie or Bojan) and a center (Lively for 30 and Stewart for 18?) and then you have some combo of Exum, Green, DJJ, OMax, GWill and maybe 12 minutes from Stewart as the starting PF.  That's a lot of bodies occupying the two defensive wing roles.  I think this helps the defense even if Bojan and THJ are dead even as bad defenders.  It is the expansion of the offensive role that Bojan accomplishes that makes the D better, not Bojan the defender IMHO.

[mvossman]

I was with you all the way til the end.  I would start either DJJ or Exum with Stewart and push GWill to the bench.

Which brings up an interesting question.  If we had Stewart on this team already and someone proposed a trade for Boston's backup 4/3 (some guy named Grant Williams).  He's a bit undersized (especially next to our skinny rookie center), but he hits a high percentage of corner 3's.  Do we make that deal?  Having seen the GWill show for two months now, I probably stick with the bigger guy who rebounds (and probably defends) better.

Yep, need a point of attack defender in that starting lineup.  Lively/Stewart/GWill/Luka has way too much overlap.

The real question regarding Stewart (and this applies to DJJ as well) is can he truly space the floor.  Can he consistently make teams pay for leaving him wide open.  We know GWill can.  He has been shooting around 40% for years on decent volume.  Historically the other two have shot less volume and much less percentage.  If Stewart was getting left alone regularly and shooting 33% from three like he has done every full year in the league, and also struggling with perimeter defense against quicker forwards, I could easily see folks talking themselves into trading for GWill (and then being disappointed with his perimeter defense as well).

[vfromlmf]

Dinwiddie - 24 GP, 28 MIN, 10.6 FGA, 49.8 FG%, 40.4 3FG%, 3.1 REB, 3.9 AST, 15.8 PTS

Exum - 7 GP, 29.7 MIN, 9.6 FGA, 64.2 FG%, 57.7 3FG%, 3.9 REB, 4.6 AST, 16.1 PTS

[Winter]

I think the Mavs will do something soon to acquire a big.

Every game without Lively feels like a disaster... and no "fix" is in sight. We have no personnel to replace him.

[mvossman]

Yeah, there is a number out there that when we hold teams under 120 D-Rating we are undefeated (120 is basically the worst team in the league defensively).

The question is how you get there.  The major difference between Bojan and THJ is Bojan is a creator for himself and for others and you aren't giving up anything in terms of 3 point shooting.  If you have any two of Luka, Kyrie and Bojan on the floor, you can run 3 defenders at the other positions.  You can't say that for THJ as he shoots, but requires another ball handler to be on the floor if you want two of them.

So, pick any two of the ball handlers (Luka, Kyrie or Bojan) and a center (Lively for 30 and Stewart for 18?) and then you have some combo of Exum, Green, DJJ, OMax, GWill and maybe 12 minutes from Stewart as the starting PF.  That's a lot of bodies occupying the two defensive wing roles.  I think this helps the defense even if Bojan and THJ are dead even as bad defenders.  It is the expansion of the offensive role that Bojan accomplishes that makes the D better, not Bojan the defender IMHO.

I get this argument, and agree with it to an extent.  I think our answer right now to this is Exum.  He provides the secondary creation you need as well as being a plus defender.  You can play Exum as a tandem with one of Timmy, Curry, Hardy when one of Luka/Kyrie is off the floor.  Its not surprising Exum has played his most minutes with Timmy so far.  There is a part of me that thinks in many cases, especially against second units we may be better off with Exum and another defensive player.  We don't really have a plus defender at center when Lively is not on the court, so we might be better off with Luka/Kyrie plus Exum plus backup center plus two plus defenders who can shoot decently, at least some of the time.

[mvossman]

Dinwiddie - 24 GP, 28 MIN, 10.6 FGA, 49.8 FG%, 40.4 3FG%, 3.1 REB, 3.9 AST, 15.8 PTS

Exum - 7 GP, 29.7 MIN, 9.6 FGA, 64.2 FG%, 57.7 3FG%, 3.9 REB, 4.6 AST, 16.1 PTS

Its interesting how similar their offensive games are.  I am trying to keep my Exum exuberance in check and I don't think long term he will be as good of an offensive player as Din, but I have no doubt he is a significantly better defender.

[mvossman]

I think the Mavs will do something soon to acquire a big.

Every game without Lively feels like a disaster... and no "fix" is in sight. We have no personnel to replace him.

I mean its a big concern, but so far we won the game he missed most of and we were not winning in Denver short handed regardless so it hasn't actually impacted W/L yet.  Anytime 3 of your 4 bigs is out its going to be a problem.  We don't know if Lively is going to miss any more games yet, right?

[Winter]

Well we lost to the Clippers by almost 20 points last time we played them (without Lively) .... and they're our next opponent. We also lost to Toronto without Lively.

[ItsGoTime]

Maxi Kleber for the last 2 years and 5 games of this season:
- 32.5% on 4.3 attempts with 1.0 Blks/game
- 34.8% on 3 attempts with .8 Blks/game
- 33.3% on 1.8 attempts with .2 Blks/game

Maxi is touted around here as a floor spacer and rim protector. For his career, he is a .9 blk/gm player and a 35.8% 3 shooter on 3.4 attempts. He’s been focused on shooting the 3 for 5 years going on 6 now.

Stewart’s first 2 1/2ish years in the league was as the starting C for the Pistons until Duren took over the spot so Stewart was utilized as the starting PF where he focused on putting up more volume 3’s. So, last season and this are the sample size of his 3 shooting while his career blocks should be the standard to see how he does in the PF/C spot he would occupy here.
For his career, he’s a 1 blk/gm guy.
Last year and so far this year he’s:
- 32.7% on 4.1 attempts
- 36.7% on 3.6 attempts

We’re currently seeing that type of increase in DJJ’s shot and look what is being said about him around here.

The guy is physical and is a good rebounder. I think he possesses all the things this team is missing and he fits in a role we desperately need for the playoffs.

[Chicagojk]

Maxi Kleber for the last 2 years and 5 games of this season:
- 32.5% on 4.3 attempts with 1.0 Blks/game
- 34.8% on 3 attempts with .8 Blks/game
- 33.3% on 1.8 attempts with .2 Blks/game

Maxi is touted around here as a floor spacer and rim protector. For his career, he is a .9 blk/gm player and a 35.8% 3 shooter on 3.4 attempts. He’s been focused on shooting the 3 for 5 years going on 6 now.

Stewart’s first 2 1/2ish years in the league was as the starting C for the Pistons until Duren took over the spot so Stewart was utilized as the starting PF where he focused on putting up more volume 3’s. So, last season and this are the sample size of his 3 shooting while his career blocks should be the standard to see how he does in the PF/C spot he would occupy here.
For his career, he’s a 1 blk/gm guy.
Last year and so far this year he’s:
- 32.7% on 4.1 attempts
- 36.7% on 3.6 attempts

We’re currently seeing that type of increase in DJJ’s shot and look what is being said about him around here.

The guy is physical and is a good rebounder. I think he possesses all the things this team is missing and he fits in a role we desperately need for the playoffs.

I haven't made my mind up with Stewart.   I think it would probably cost more than we think (i think) and that would probably put me on the No for now page.   Although, I could see a working of him being a backup 5 while also playing some minutes next to Lively.   I think if he is going to play 5, you really need to find a long wing to pair with him.   I think that long wing is #1 on my wish list, so I want to be careful of using any of our assets until that player is developed/acquired.

[Chicagojk]

Stewart has a little Naz Reid in his game??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaTzdYyuLs0

[dirkfansince1998]

Maxi Kleber for the last 2 years and 5 games of this season:
- 32.5% on 4.3 attempts with 1.0 Blks/game
- 34.8% on 3 attempts with .8 Blks/game
- 33.3% on 1.8 attempts with .2 Blks/game

Maxi is touted around here as a floor spacer and rim protector. For his career, he is a .9 blk/gm player and a 35.8% 3 shooter on 3.4 attempts. He’s been focused on shooting the 3 for 5 years going on 6 now.

Stewart’s first 2 1/2ish years in the league was as the starting C for the Pistons until Duren took over the spot so Stewart was utilized as the starting PF where he focused on putting up more volume 3’s. So, last season and this are the sample size of his 3 shooting while his career blocks should be the standard to see how he does in the PF/C spot he would occupy here.
For his career, he’s a 1 blk/gm guy.
Last year and so far this year he’s:
- 32.7% on 4.1 attempts
- 36.7% on 3.6 attempts

We’re currently seeing that type of increase in DJJ’s shot and look what is being said about him around here.

The guy is physical and is a good rebounder. I think he possesses all the things this team is missing and he fits in a role we desperately need for the playoffs.

Don't disagree but would add that the main reason many of us (and the Mavs) valued Kleber was/is his ability to switch at least 2-5. Looking back at the Mavs last few runs we had multiple playoff series where Kleber was the best wing/forward defender on the roster. I think Stewart isn't quite as quick on the perimeter but still above average for a big.
I really like Stewart as a versatile center. Not the biggest fan of him as a PF. But Lively isn't going to play 40mpg and tends to be in foul trouble. Mavs probably have at least 15-20 backup center minutes available. Against bigger opponents both can share the floor for a couple of minutes. That would put Stewart in the 20-25 minutes range. How much are we willing to give up for another rotation piece that would be an upgrade over the current backups bigs but probably not good enough to be a clear-cut starter?

[Chicagojk]

Don't disagree but would add that the main reason many of us (and the Mavs) valued Kleber was/is his ability to switch at least 2-5. Looking back at the Mavs last few runs we had multiple playoff series where Kleber was the best wing/forward defender on the roster. I think Stewart isn't quite as quick on the perimeter but still above average for a big.
I really like Stewart as a versatile center. Not the biggest fan of him as a PF. But Lively isn't going to play 40mpg and tends to be in foul trouble. Mavs probably have at least 15-20 backup center minutes available. Against bigger opponents both can share the floor for a couple of minutes. That would put Stewart in the 20-25 minutes range. How much are we willing to give up for another rotation piece that would be an upgrade over the current backups bigs but probably not good enough to be a clear-cut starter?

This is where I am at.  I see him mostly at a center.  I think the Mavs play best when they have two mobile wings.   I think Stewart could play some power forward as you mention getting him to 20-25 minutes.  He would provide some needed toughness too.   But because I see him mostly as a center, I would offer packages meant for a backup/strong rotation player.   His asking price may be higher than that though.

[mvossman]

Maxi Kleber for the last 2 years and 5 games of this season:
- 32.5% on 4.3 attempts with 1.0 Blks/game
- 34.8% on 3 attempts with .8 Blks/game
- 33.3% on 1.8 attempts with .2 Blks/game

Maxi is touted around here as a floor spacer and rim protector. For his career, he is a .9 blk/gm player and a 35.8% 3 shooter on 3.4 attempts. He’s been focused on shooting the 3 for 5 years going on 6 now.

Stewart’s first 2 1/2ish years in the league was as the starting C for the Pistons until Duren took over the spot so Stewart was utilized as the starting PF where he focused on putting up more volume 3’s. So, last season and this are the sample size of his 3 shooting while his career blocks should be the standard to see how he does in the PF/C spot he would occupy here.
For his career, he’s a 1 blk/gm guy.
Last year and so far this year he’s:
- 32.7% on 4.1 attempts
- 36.7% on 3.6 attempts

We’re currently seeing that type of increase in DJJ’s shot and look what is being said about him around here.

The guy is physical and is a good rebounder. I think he possesses all the things this team is missing and he fits in a role we desperately need for the playoffs.

When folks talk about Maxi in a positive light they are talking about what he was in his prime and what we need him to get back to.  You are showing stats of his injury riddled decline which should probably not be the goal.  In his prime he was shooting in the upper 30s from 3 with roughly block and half per 36 while playing high level perimeter defense.  Stewart is not currently meeting any of those metrics and I don't know if he will.  The Luka bump is not universal.  Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't.  

I get the interest in him.  He is young, he is reported to have a good work ethic and has shown hints of being the right fit for what we need.  I just think there are a lot of questions.  To Dan's question, I'm curious who folks would have preferred in the offseason between Grant Williams and Stewart?  My guess is the majority would have gone for Williams.  We paid a pick swap and roughly the MLE for him and so far many are disappointed.  We are talking about an unprotected first and higher than MLE contract.  I'm concerned we could have similar (or worse) buyers remorse on that deal.

[SleepingHero]

Stewart is controversial. But he does have stuff that we're lacking.

First he's added a semi-reliable 3 to his game. That alone means he can play with Luka and stay on the court. Defensively he's not necessarily a stopper, but he is a big body AND can move laterally. Whether he's cut from the same cloth as Maxi or more like a guy like Deandre Jordan still remains to be answered.

But one thing that really attracts me to him is that he is an enforcer. He's the type of guy that takes no craps, gives zero shits, and wants to get in your face. We need some of that edge on this team. Morris is supposed to be that guy, but he rarely sees the court (or at least SHOULD rarely see the court).

Some examples of Beef Stew (will attach another message with other examples, I'm limited to 2 videos per reply):





Sure some of these antics gets old after a while and it definitely can be argued that stuff like this does not win basketball games. But Stewart does do stuff we need. For example:



He hustles. He runs HARD. Those type of guys excel next to Luka and especially Kyrie. Look at Exum and Green. 

I'm sold on Stewart, especially if he can be had for cheap. The real prize on the Pistons is Ausar Thompson. I'm willing to throw the farm for that dude. He's not a franchise player by any means and the Pistons are currently reeling. There is no shot they would trade him, but who knows?

[SleepingHero]

[mvossman]

I'm sold on Stewart, especially if he can be had for cheap. The real prize on the Pistons is Ausar Thompson. I'm willing to throw the farm for that dude. He's not a franchise player by any means and the Pistons are currently reeling. There is no shot they would trade him, but who knows?

If he could be had for cheap, I would be on board.  Most of the proposals regarding him involve adding a first.  Are you willing to go there?

[ItsGoTime]

Don't disagree but would add that the main reason many of us (and the Mavs) valued Kleber was/is his ability to switch at least 2-5. Looking back at the Mavs last few runs we had multiple playoff series where Kleber was the best wing/forward defender on the roster. I think Stewart isn't quite as quick on the perimeter but still above average for a big.
I really like Stewart as a versatile center. Not the biggest fan of him as a PF. But Lively isn't going to play 40mpg and tends to be in foul trouble. Mavs probably have at least 15-20 backup center minutes available. Against bigger opponents both can share the floor for a couple of minutes. That would put Stewart in the 20-25 minutes range. How much are we willing to give up for another rotation piece that would be an upgrade over the current backups bigs but probably not good enough to be a clear-cut starter?

I’m not going to argue against this too terribly much cause I don’t know what kind of “Luka bump” he would get coming here (if any at all).

A few nit picky things though - he’s mobile enough that a defense with him and Lively on the floor could be stifling at the rim. Maybe we don’t cover the perimeter as well, but as long as it’s not a layup line AND a 3 point shot fest? We can get this team’s defense down in the top 10 range.

He’s 22, hardly a finished product, so getting to our coaching staff and developing further on things that will make this team better is not out of the question.

I think Bobby Portis is kinda the archetype he would mold his game and role to. Very large piece to the Bucks championship puzzle. I also think that role is closer to a 25-30 minute role as opposed to 20-25 mins.

I don’t think Maxi has ever been good at guarding 5’s. I’ll give you the 2 although I don’t fully think that’s accurate either. 3’s and 4’s, he has shown to be good there and as an offball shot blocker. None of that matters anymore cause he’s not that player anymore.