Trade & FA 2023-24: 76ers Believe They Have A Shot at PG13

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Allen is 7th in DefRtg for centers. Ayton is 25th.

Allen is 23rd in RebRtg for centers. Ayton is 19th.

Allen is 14.3/9.8/1.7/1.2. Ayton is 18.0/10.0/1.7/0.8

Allen's contract is 3 years, $60million. Ayton's is 3 years, $101million

Allen is clearly the better fit/value.

[F Gump]

Allen is 7th in DefRtg for centers.  Ayton is 25th.

Allen is 23rd in RebRtg for centers.  Ayton is 19th.

Allen is 14.3/9.8/1.7/1.2.  Ayton is 18.0/10.0/1.7/0.8

Allen's contract is 3 years, $60million.  Ayton's is 3 years, $101million

Allen is clearly the better fit/value.

But is Allen REALLY available at all? I would suspect not.

[KillerLeft]

I think Jarret Allen would be a nice target, if that's the best they can do. He seems to have a few more years before he's too slow to maintain relevance.

In terms of price, I actually think #10 and a THJ-level guy is more than fair...maybe a slight overpay, actually. As much hate as THJ gets from Mavs fans, he can move, he can shoot, he can play decent defense and he can slot in at multiple positions. That's a player most teams want/need, on their bench, at least. He just has a ton of baggage with Mavs' fans and the tandem of Luka/Irving makes him a less than ideal fit for a huge role here.

There's no chance I include Kleber, Green or Hardy in that deal. No chance, whatsoever. When Kleber is healthy he's a better player than Allen, imo.

[DallasMaverick]

Allen is 7th in DefRtg for centers.  Ayton is 25th.

Allen is 23rd in RebRtg for centers.  Ayton is 19th.

Allen is 14.3/9.8/1.7/1.2.  Ayton is 18.0/10.0/1.7/0.8

Allen's contract is 3 years, $60million.  Ayton's is 3 years, $101million

Allen is clearly the better fit/value.

So..

What other teams are in the market for a player like Allen?

And what are they likely to offer?

[DallasMaverick]

So..

What other teams are in the market for a player like Allen?

And what are they likely to offer?

https://youtu.be/YOtmkV5kxYM

Fascinating how we fans tend to poo-poo our own players, and elevate guys on other teams.

Does this sometimes happen with spouses, too?

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

I think Jarret Allen would be a nice target, if that's the best they can do. He seems to have a few more years before he's too slow to maintain relevance.

In terms of price, I actually think #10 and a THJ-level guy is more than fair...maybe a slight overpay, actually. As much hate as THJ gets from Mavs fans, he can move, he can shoot, he can play decent defense and he can slot in at multiple positions. That's a player most teams want/need, on their bench, at least. He just has a ton of baggage with Mavs' fans and the tandem of Luka/Irving makes him a less than ideal fit for a huge role here.

There's no chance I include Kleber, Green or Hardy in that deal. No chance, whatsoever. When Kleber is healthy he's a better player than Allen, imo.

I agree that THJ/#10 is fair on both sides.  I also agree that THJ is more valuable than we value him.  IMO Green and Hardy are untouchable unless it's for an OG type player.  I think you're overstating Kleber.  He is, however, a player worth a lot more to his current team than on another.

[KillerLeft]

I think you're overstating Kleber.  He is, however, a player worth a lot more to his current team than on another.

He's a difference-making BIG on the defensive end who can protect the paint, play 1-on-1 and switch onto almost anyone in the pnr game. There aren't very many of those in the game...10? Fewer? And, he's a top-notch floor spacer, which is doubly valuable when it comes from a big. It's easy to forget what an impact player he is when he's right and in a good rhythm because he (admittedly) hasn't been healthy enough for long enough recently. 

Availability is certainly a concern with him, as is the drop off in his play when he fights through minor injuries. I still think he's a gem, however. The best thing about him is that he's STILL not a finished product. If he can keep improving and get over this injury stuff he can be relevant and valuable for a loooong time, like PJ Tucker, just as an example.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

He's a difference-making BIG on the defensive end who can protect the paint, play 1-on-1 and switch onto almost anyone in the pnr game. There aren't very many of those in the game...10? Fewer? And, he's a top-notch floor spacer, which is doubly valuable when it comes from a big. It's easy to forget what an impact player he is when he's right and in a good rhythm because he (admittedly) hasn't been healthy enough for long enough recently. 

Availability is certainly a concern with him, as is the drop off in his play when he fights through minor injuries. I still think he's a gem, however. The best thing about him is that he's STILL not a finished product. If he can keep improving and get over this injury stuff he can be relevant and valuable for a loooong time, like PJ Tucker, just as an example.

A big negative is his rebounding.  7.4 Reb% for a C/PF is abysmal.

[DallasMaverick]

A big negative is his rebounding.  7.4 Reb% for a C/PF is abysmal.

True.  Would you rather have Andre Drummond?

[KillerLeft]

A big negative is his rebounding.  7.4 Reb% for a C/PF is abysmal.

Sure, but I don't care so much about that. In my game-following-experience, the guys with big rebounding numbers are often (not always) selfish and not actually that focused on winning. For me, it's the same as a guy who routinely scores 30+, but on 30 shots. The "counting" type of stats don't interest me anymore. 

If you can get the guy who's physically imposing and will play hard/intense enough to get those all-important "tough" rebounds you have to have during crunch time (Ayton will never, ever, be this guy, as an aside) that's great, but in today's game you have to eliminate 75% of the guys on that list because the other aspects of their games are such a bad fit with today's sport that you can't afford to have them on the floor during important stretches, anyway. 

Give me the guy with the attributes I listed about Kleber above and who understands how to box out and neutralize opposing rebounders, providing a plausible way for his TEAM to get a rebound. To me, that's a much more desirable player than someone (DeAndre Jordan or Drummond, as examples) whose aim is to average 12 rebounds per. I just don't see many players like that you can win with today. To be clear, I don't think I'd paint Allen with that brush, but I absolutely think Ayton is that kind of selfish/stupid.

[KillerLeft]

In a more general sense, I'd also argue that rebounding is becoming less and less of an emphasis in modern team-building, and with pretty good reason, logically. The game is becoming so skill based that what you need to win seems very, very simple: You need to create more quality, open shots on offense than you allow your opponent to create.

If you subscribe to that basic tenet, and I do, then a guy like Kleber, who is a real threat as a catch-and-shoot guy, pulling opposing defenders OUT of the paint so that penetration is easy and more effective, while simultaneously being a plus defender in a variety of situations, is like gold.

[Chicagojk]

Allen is 7th in DefRtg for centers.  Ayton is 25th.

Allen is 23rd in RebRtg for centers.  Ayton is 19th.

Allen is 14.3/9.8/1.7/1.2.  Ayton is 18.0/10.0/1.7/0.8

Allen's contract is 3 years, $60million.  Ayton's is 3 years, $101million

Allen is clearly the better fit/value.

The Allen ideas are interesting. Although seeing him destroyed in the Knicks series was concerning.

The easiest path for the Cavs is to keep the roster as is and try to find way to piece together the SF position and maybe add a shooter or two.  That is probably the direction they go. 

But looking in the future, they do have Garland extension coming up.   Then, sooner or later, Mobley will be up.    They need to be budgeting paying three near max guys.   20 million for Allen is not bad.  Not sure if that is ideal if they are paying those three near max though.   So, in theory a Hardaway plus #10 might have some appeal.   Hardaway is that shooter they missed in the playoffs and #10 can reset the clock on salary while they can add a better suited wing who can shoot.    Probably not enough to move the needle for them though, but I think that is a pretty fair trade....coming from a biased Mavs fan.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

True.  Would you rather have Andre Drummond?

Hahaha.  I believe there are mobile bigs who can rebound.  I like Maxi.  Just stating the obvious.  Wood's Reb% is literally double.  We were 30th in rebounding last year.  And that's with the best rebounding PG in the league.  Our bigs can't rebound, not to mention we use guards as forwards (like Bullock) who simply can't rebound.

[dirkfansince1998]

Hahaha.  I believe there are mobile bigs who can rebound.  I like Maxi.  Just stating the obvious.  Wood's Reb% is literally double.  We were 30th in rebounding last year.  And that's with the best rebounding PG in the league.  Our bigs can't rebound, not to mention we use guards as forwards (like Bullock) who simply can't rebound.

Interesting part is that Wood´s numbers didn´t translate to team rebounding success. Might be the mentioned case of "selfishness" that Killerleft described.

On/off numbers are obviously all about lineups but just to get an idea.

Powell DREB% 76.7 on (+1.9 on/off)
Kleber DREB% 75.7 on (+0.3 on/off)
Wood DREB% 74.8 on (-1.2 on/off)

Boxouts per36

Powell 2.5
Kleber 2.2
Wood 1.7

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Sure, but I don't care so much about that. In my game-following-experience, the guys with big rebounding numbers are often (not always) selfish and not actually that focused on winning. For me, it's the same as a guy who routinely scores 30+, but on 30 shots. The "counting" type of stats don't interest me anymore. 

If you can get the guy who's physically imposing and will play hard/intense enough to get those all-important "tough" rebounds you have to have during crunch time (Ayton will never, ever, be this guy, as an aside) that's great, but in today's game you have to eliminate 75% of the guys on that list because the other aspects of their games are such a bad fit with today's sport that you can't afford to have them on the floor during important stretches, anyway. 

Give me the guy with the attributes I listed about Kleber above and who understands how to box out and neutralize opposing rebounders, providing a plausible way for his TEAM to get a rebound. To me, that's a much more desirable player than someone (DeAndre Jordan or Drummond, as examples) whose aim is to average 12 rebounds per. I just don't see many players like that you can win with today. To be clear, I don't think I'd paint Allen with that brush, but I absolutely think Ayton is that kind of selfish/stupid.

We were 30th in rebounding last year and are ready to let go our best rebounder.  To ignore our rebounding woes is ignorant.  

To say that Maxi is a bad rebounder doesn't mean that I want a stationary dinosaur.  5th best rebounder in the league?  The Joker, probably the highest bballIQ big ever to bounce a ball.  Luka is the best rebounding PG by far.  

I agree with you about Ayton, and Allen not being that type of player.  That's why I'd MUCH rather Allen.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

The Allen ideas are interesting. Although seeing him destroyed in the Knicks series was concerning.

The easiest path for the Cavs is to keep the roster as is and try to find way to piece together the SF position and maybe add a shooter or two.  That is probably the direction they go. 

But looking in the future, they do have Garland extension coming up.   Then, sooner or later, Mobley will be up.    They need to be budgeting paying three near max guys.   20 million for Allen is not bad.  Not sure if that is ideal if they are paying those three near max though.   So, in theory a Hardaway plus #10 might have some appeal.   Hardaway is that shooter they missed in the playoffs and #10 can reset the clock on salary while they can add a better suited wing who can shoot.    Probably not enough to move the needle for them though, but I think that is a pretty fair trade....coming from a biased Mavs fan.

If Allen was always stellar, he wouldn't be available.  It's because the frontcourt of Allen/Mobley was exposed that the Cavs are probably looking to recalibrate with a stretch big to team with Mobley.  I would be shocked if they weren't interested in Wood.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Interesting part is that Wood´s numbers didn´t translate to team rebounding success. Might be the mentioned case of "selfishness" that Killerleft described.

On/off numbers are obviously all about lineups but just to get an idea.

Powell DREB% 76.7 on (+1.9 on/off)
Kleber DREB% 75.7 on (+0.3 on/off)
Wood DREB% 74.8 on (-1.2 on/off)

Boxouts per36

Powell 2.5
Kleber 2.2
Wood 1.7

Good gosh does that prove zilch, especially comparing someone's minutes with starters vs bench players.  The stat driving your numbers is simply Luka's on/off.  And why just list DReb%?

[dirkfansince1998]

Good gosh does that prove zilch, especially comparing someone's minutes with starters vs bench players.  The stat driving your numbers is simply Luka's on/off.  And why just list DReb%?

You didn´t even take the time to look at Luka´s numbers, did you? -0.2 DREB% on/off. -0.6 OREB% on/off. Obviously the driving force...not.

Happy to provide OREB%. But it isn´t helping your case.

Powell 22.1 on (+6.3 on/off)
Kleber 17.9 on (-1,4 on/off)
Wood 17.0 on (-1.8 on/off)

Feel free to go through the detailed lineup numbers. Just skimming through them and comparing single big lineups with Doncic + Powell they clearly outperform Doncic + Wood. Powell is also getting the least amount of minutes in "twin-tower" lineups. Kleber and Wood shared the floor more often than any other bigmen combination but the DREB is actually really bad (71.3%).
It´s actually even worse than I thought. Among two-men combinations that played more than 20 minutes not a single one that featured Wood is a positive.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

You didn´t even take the time to look at Luka´s numbers, did you? -0.2 DREB% on/off. -0.6 OREB% on/off. Obviously the driving force...not.

Happy to provide OREB%. But it isn´t helping your case.

Powell 22.1 on (+6.3 on/off)
Kleber 17.9 on (-1,4 on/off)
Wood 17.0 on (-1.8 on/off)

Feel free to go through the detailed lineup numbers. Just skimming through them and comparing single big lineups with Doncic + Powell they clearly outperform Doncic + Wood. Powell is also getting the least amount of minutes in "twin-tower" lineups. Kleber and Wood shared the floor more often than any other bigmen combination but the DREB is actually really bad (71.3%).
It´s actually even worse than I thought. Among two-men combinations that played more than 20 minutes not a single one that featured Wood is a positive.

Sorry, I'm employed.

[DallasMaverick]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-spo...GY6tIV5w1U

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/...%20million.

Think of the leverage that Austin Reaves has in his negotiations. The Lakers let Caruso go, and it seriously bit them in the rear, and their fan base is probably as upset as the Dallas fan base was about Brunson. Maybe worse, since seemingly the Mavs didn't even have an opportunity to bid on Brunson.

So, can you imagine the howling in L.A. if the Lakers don't re-sign Reaves?

I predict a significant overpay.