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Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - Printable Version

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RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - Ghost of Podkolzin - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 02:11 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Would be nice, but I think your trade proposal on the other thread doesn't send enough to Milwaukee. If they see Ayton as an upgrade to Lopez, they're dumb. Ayton is trash, nearly to the level of Andre Drummond.

I'm certainly not a fan, hence proposing Lopez over Ayton.  I do think he's a $20m/year center, putting his contract at an overpay of $40m over 3 years.

About Lopez...  would you be willing to sweeten it up for MIL by adding Hardy?

DAL - Lopez, Crowder, Payne

MIL - Ayton, Hardy

PHX - DAL#10, THJ, G.Allen, Bertens S/W

Luka, Payne
Kyrie, Holiday
Green, Bullock
Crowder, *Wood, Maxi
Lopez, Powell

*I think that roster is too lite on offense.  Resign Wood.  Make him 6th man at 30mins/game.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - BigDirk41 - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 02:11 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Would be nice, but I think your trade proposal on the other thread doesn't send enough to Milwaukee. If they see Ayton as an upgrade to Lopez, they're dumb. Ayton is trash, nearly to the level of Andre Drummond.

The reason that this is such a nightmare is that, even at the low numbers you all are speculating about, that contract has heavily negative value for when he inevitably forces his way out. Thanks a lot, Mark!

I would like the contract to be more team friendly as well,  but that's not going to happen.
I'm already at the acceptance stage. You'll get there..lol. When was the last large contract Cuban gave out  that we all liked other than Dirk and Luka. There's not many. Also we were really spoiled with Dirk being the most unselfish superstar of all time.
(06-08-2023, 02:33 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: I'm certainly not a fan, hence proposing Lopez over Ayton.  I do think he's a $20m/year center, putting his contract at an overpay of $40m over 3 years.

About Lopez...  would you be willing to sweeten it up for MIL by adding Hardy?

DAL - Lopez, Crowder, Payne

MIL - Ayton, Hardy

PHX - DAL#10, THJ, G.Allen, Bertens S/W

Luka, Payne
Kyrie, Holiday
Green, Bullock
Crowder, *Wood, Maxi
Lopez, Powell

*I think that roster is too lite on offense.  Resign Wood.  Make him 6th man at 30mins/game.

Absolutely not on trading Hardy. A legit 3rd star is the only way that would be considered and we don't have the resources for that.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - Ghost of Podkolzin - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 02:42 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: I would like the contract to be more team friendly as well,  but that's not going to happen.
I'm already at the acceptance stage. You'll get there..lol. When was the last large contract Cuban gave out  that we all liked other than Dirk and Luka. There's not many. Also we were really spoiled with Dirk being the most unselfish superstar of all time.

Absolutely not on trading Hardy. A legit 3rd star is the only way that would be considered and we don't have the resources for that.

Green?

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - BigDirk41 - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 02:45 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: Green?

If that 4/70 contract talk is legit, yes. If he'll sign for 4/56, probably not, but I would entertain it. I think Hardy has star potential. He has the IT factor and he's under team control at a cheap cost. For me Hardy should be untouchable at all cost.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - Scott41theMavs - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 03:06 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: If that 4/70 contract talk is legit, yes. If he'll sign for 4/56, probably not, but I would entertain it. I think Hardy has star potential. He has the IT factor and he's under team control at a cheap cost. For me Hardy should be untouchable at all cost.

You know how it works, right? If the Mavs keep him, he might be a legit starter someday, but never a star. If they trade him, he'll be a perennial all-star.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - ItsGoTime - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 02:07 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: I think 5/200 would be a win for the Mavs and especially Cuban's dumbass. I think it will be 4/200 or worse, but I truly hope I'm wrong.
It would be a win this year, not so sure in year 4 & 5. Hopefully we aren’t paying him in those years.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - BigDirk41 - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 03:13 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: You know how it works, right? If the Mavs keep him, he might be a legit starter someday, but never a star. If they trade him, he'll be a perennial all-star.

That we agree on. They rarely make the right decision.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - Jym - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 03:45 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: That we agree on. They rarely make the right decision.



So annoying
Even when they do make the "right" decision it ends up blowing up in their face 
Just glad we ended up with Luka instead of Bamba or Bagley

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - RoyTarpleysGhost - 06-08-2023

My guess for Kyrie contract is same as Luka contract.

4/178 with a player option in the last year

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - SleepingHero - 06-08-2023

https://twitter.com/duanerankin/status/1666901473261912066?s=46&t=Fmdr94oXagcEyy75KJqaFg

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - Mavs2021 - 06-08-2023

Lillard makes some sense, but Phoenix would probably have to generate more than Ayton to make it worthwhile for the Blazers. Not sure how they can do that. Probably worse building blocks than Scoot and Ayton though.

Given that the Suns have now been linked with Lillard and Harden, if you want to make Phoenix/Dallas trades, use Kyrie.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - MarkAguirreWrathofGod - 06-08-2023

Ayton stats look nice but he doesn’t protect the rim and makes way too much for what he brings. Crucially, he seems content being a well-paid nice guy, with nice stats.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - SleepingHero - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 04:39 PM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: Ayton stats look nice but he doesn’t protect the rim and makes way too much for what he brings. Crucially, he seems content being a well-paid nice guy, with nice stats.

2 years ago Ayton was considered one of the better center prospects and a fantastic defender for the position.

He still is those things. He is one of the few centers that can switch in a PnR. That alone makes him a cut above most. His rim protection is lacking, but its not like he's Shawn Bradley out there. 

He is overpaid, but from the position where the Mavs are, if they want players of Ayton's caliber or better, they have to accept they come with warts. Kyrie is crazy. Ayton is overpaid. Both of them are still amazing basketball players.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - Ghost of Podkolzin - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 05:04 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: 2 years ago Ayton was considered one of the better center prospects and a fantastic defender for the position.

He still is those things. He is one of the few centers that can switch in a PnR. That alone makes him a cut above most. His rim protection is lacking, but its not like he's Shawn Bradley out there. 

He is overpaid, but from the position where the Mavs are, if they want players of Ayton's caliber or better, they have to accept they come with warts. Kyrie is crazy. Ayton is overpaid. Both of them are still amazing basketball players.

I have 17 centers rated higher than Ayton in my rating system.  This system does not factor in age or contract.  Simply production advanced stats: Scoring, Rebounding, Distribution, Defense, and Availability.  I can't see how you can call him an "amazing basketball player".

1.  Nikola Jokic
2.  Joel Embiid
3.  Anthony Davis
4.  Jaren Jackson Jr.
5.  Brook Lopez
6.  Domantas Sabonis
7.  Evan Mobley
8.  Bam Adebayo
9.  Rudy Gobert
10.  Jarrett Allen
11.  Lauri Markkanen
12.  Nikola Vucevic
13.  Julius Randle
14.  Nic Claxton
15.  Kristaps Porzingis
16.  Karl-Anthony Towns
17.  Robert Williams III
18.  Deandre Ayton
19.  Wendell Carter Jr.
20.  Steven Adams
21.  Ivica Zubac
22.  Myles Turner
23.  Al Horford
24.  Jakob Poeltl
25.  Mitchell Robinson
26.  Clint Capela
27.  Jusuf Nurkic
28.  Walker Kessler
29.  John Collins
30.  Santi Aldama

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - HAguiar95 - 06-08-2023

I'll go ahead and remove Randle and Markkanen cause they're PFs.

Looking at that list, unless they are old (Lopez/Vucevic) or have injury concearns (Porzingis, Williams III), all of them have higher value than Ayton. We're going for Ayton cause he's a distressed asset that probably needs a fresh start.

I'll be ok if we have our new center for a drop down in the draft (no further then say #21) or for expirings, which leaves:

Nurkic, Capela, Ayton as the ones I could see available for that price.

If we want a better piece than that, we probably would have to include #10 and get no pick in return (maybe a second?), which I'd be against.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - BigDirk41 - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 05:36 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: I have 17 centers rated higher than Ayton in my rating system.  This system does not factor in age or contract.  Simply production advanced stats: Scoring, Rebounding, Distribution, Defense, and Availability.  I can't see how you can call him an "amazing basketball player".

1.  Nikola Jokic
2.  Joel Embiid
3.  Anthony Davis
4.  Jaren Jackson Jr.
5.  Brook Lopez
6.  Domantas Sabonis
7.  Evan Mobley
8.  Bam Adebayo
9.  Rudy Gobert
10.  Jarrett Allen
11.  Lauri Markkanen
12.  Nikola Vucevic
13.  Julius Randle
14.  Nic Claxton
15.  Kristaps Porzingis
16.  Karl-Anthony Towns
17.  Robert Williams III
18.  Deandre Ayton
19.  Wendell Carter Jr.
20.  Steven Adams
21.  Ivica Zubac
22.  Myles Turner
23.  Al Horford
24.  Jakob Poeltl
25.  Mitchell Robinson
26.  Clint Capela
27.  Jusuf Nurkic
28.  Walker Kessler
29.  John Collins
30.  Santi Aldama

I'd probably put Ayton around 15, but I don't have a issue with the rankings. Ayton is an average or above average starting center imo. Not a foundation piece. He definitely has the talent to be in the top 10 if he could learn to play consistently and bring it every game. He is a distressed asset as others have mentioned. Maybe we could save him or maybe he burns us. Who knows.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - RoyTarpleysGhost - 06-08-2023

Maybe I read too much into the "narratives" compared to our more statistically inclined fans but I want no part of Deandre Ayton.

Going back to Arizona, there were question marks about whether he loved basketball and was willing to work to be one of the best. He's been in the league for five years and those questions still haven't been answered. He's being shopped by his current team because they don't believe he is that guy.

It's the same reason I wanted no part of Ben Simmons when all the stats people were raving about the impact he can have.

The ONLY way I would want him is you were to tell me we're losing Kyrie for nothing and have an opportunity to send him to Phoenix for Ayton.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - F Gump - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 05:04 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: 2 years ago Ayton was considered one of the better center prospects and a fantastic defender for the position.

He still is those things.

Is he? I'm not so sure he is. You fail to note the big thing that happened with him within those last 2 years, which can often completely change the trajectory of a player's play.

What happened? He got the massive max contract he was shooting for. Now he isn't the same player, seeming to lack the passion to excel. (He got his, so he doesn't need to care, right?)

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - Ghost of Podkolzin - 06-08-2023

(06-08-2023, 06:11 PM)HAguiar95 Wrote: I'll go ahead and remove Randle and Markkanen cause they're PFs.

Looking at that list, unless they are old (Lopez/Vucevic) or have injury concearns (Porzingis, Williams III), all of them have higher value than Ayton. We're going for Ayton cause he's a distressed asset that probably needs a fresh start.

I'll be ok if we have our new center for a drop down in the draft (no further then say #21) or for expirings, which leaves:

Nurkic, Capela, Ayton as the ones I could see available for that price.

If we want a better piece than that, we probably would have to include #10 and get no pick in return (maybe a second?), which I'd be against.

Yup.  Good points.  I do disagree with Lopez/Vucevic, tho.  Vucevic started 82 games last year, Lopez 78.  This is why my rating factors in availability and why they're rated so high.  I'd argue I'd rather either of them than Ayton for the next 3 seasons.  Your point is spot on.  We need to be developing a young big.

RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: CP3 to be waived by PHX? Paul wants it decided before 6/28 - Chicagojk - 06-08-2023

Hollinger top 25 free agent BORDS rankings.  His numbers are off on projections I remember from last year but this is from his data.  Kyrie was at 59 million and #1 on his list.

22. Christian Wood, C, 27, Dallas: $17,289,331

Well, that was an interesting ride. The Mavs steadily soured on Wood despite substantial production, partly because of his defense at the five and partly because everything got weird in Dallas during the second half of the season.

Wood is caught somewhat between positions at 6-10, 214 pounds, and might function best as a third big man who can flex between power forward and center. At either spot, he is a huge force offensively, with 3-point range, the ability to attack off the dribble and enough pop to be a lob threat as a rim runner. The other use for him, however, is just as a starting center, especially if he’s paired with a bully four who can crossmatch with him at times.

Wood’s other calling card is that he’s the best big who is clearly available, with the other centers on this list likely returning to their own teams. He should be the first call for any team in need of offensive firepower at the center spot.
1. Kyrie Irving, PG, 31, Dallas: $50,555,884

There is a lot more that goes into having Irving on your team than BORD$ is able to process, which is why sentient beings may put a lower value on Irving than my computer formula does. Between injuries, insolence and inoculations (or lack thereof), Irving hasn’t played more than 60 games in a season in four years; he’s only had three seasons in his 12 as a pro that would make him award-eligible (more than 65 games). (Odd fact: When Irving did play, he led the league in minutes per game.)

On the other hand, he’s also an offensive whirlwind who averaged 27 points a game on 63.4 percent true shooting in 20 games as a Maverick last season. Irving’s BORD$ pegs him being worth more than his $46.5 million max for the coming season, but the two more pressing questions are whether the collateral locker room damage is worth it, and whether he can continue to stay this productive on a deal that pushes into his mid-30s.

Given how many teams lack either the cap space to sign Irving or the willingness to put up with him, Dallas may be able to push back and offer him something short of his four-year, $210 million max (let alone the five-year version for $272 million).

Dallas could also go longer on years and shorter on money, which would be appealing from managing its luxury-tax situation. The Mavs are $48 million from the projected tax line before paying Irving a cent and would still have five open roster spots to fill after signing Irving.

As for the Lakers, L.A. can’t get anywhere close to Irving’s max in any realistic cap room scenario. A sign-and-trade, however, would get kind of wacky but is theoretically possible. The Lakers would need to pick up Mo Bamba’s guarantee, guarantee Shaq Harrison’s deal, pick up Malik Beasley’s option and sign their first-round pick (17th). After a month, they could trade the pick along with Bamba, Beasley, Harrison and Max Christie and pay Irving up to $43 million for the first season of a four-year deal totaling $187 million.

There are other permutations, such as including D’Angelo Russell or Rui Hachimura in a sign-and-trade. Sign-and-trading one of Wenyen Gabriel, Troy Brown or Tristan Thompson could also bump up Irving’s first-year salary another $1.5 million or so. (I also am presuming the Lakers would have to throw another pick into this, but it has no cap implications.)

However, a sign-and-trade would also hard cap the Lakers, who would have only four players under contract, need to sign at least 10 more and have only about $40 million to pull it off — including re-signing Austin Reaves and Hachimura. For that reason, the lower Irving’s first-year salary is at the end of the deal, the more plausible a sign-and-trade is from L.A.’s end … but the less plausible it is for Irving.