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+--- Thread: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms (/showthread.php?tid=2444)
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RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - vfromlmf - 02-02-2024
Regarding Kuzma, I think some of us may be discounting what it takes to be the best player on any NBA team. Off the top of my head the Mavs have acquired another team's "best" player via trade in the last 20 years:
- Antawn Jamison
- Caron Butler
- Jason Terry
- Jason Kidd
- Kristaps Porzingis
Maybe I'm forgetting someone.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - mvossman - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 03:14 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: Regarding Kuzma, I think some of us may be discounting what it takes to be the best player on any NBA team. Off the top of my head the Mavs have acquired another team's "best" player via trade in the last 20 years:
- Antawn Jamison
- Caron Butler
- Jason Terry
- Jason Kidd
- Kristaps Porzingis
Maybe I'm forgetting someone.
when taking into account contract and fit, I would rather have Deni and Gafford. Is best player on a really bad team what we should be spending assets on? A chucker that hasn't played defense in years. Those are some bad habits to break. It doesn't help that he was a chucker in LA and the general feeling was that he thought too highly of himself. That report that the Mavs think they can "handle" him is another red flag.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - vfromlmf - 02-02-2024
Agree there are red flags but no player is perfect. Kuzma is really good at basketball. I have no idea if he will work out but
Jamison red flag scorer who doesn't play defense, turned into a fan favorite
Butler inconsistent, turned in to a fan favorite
Jerry Stackhouse (who I forgot earlier), scoring chucker, turned in to an all time fan favorite
Terry, best player on a bad team, not a point guard, turned into a Championship
Kidd, old washed up, turned into Championship
Porzingis, injured, turned out poorly but did the Mavs give up too soon?
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - youzigizag - 02-02-2024
Doesnt Durant qualify as 6'8 ball handler...
Just played an online video game with a player named Durant. Dont know if its a sign or not....
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - SleepingHero - 02-02-2024
NBACentral (@TheDunkCentral)
The Philadelphia 76ers are willing to give up a first-round pick for DeMar DeRozan, per @BrettSiegelNBA
“Daryl Morey and the Philadelphia 76ers do not want to give up a first-round pick ahead of the trade deadline, but would be willing to do so for a player like DeMar DeRozan if the Chicago Bulls were willing to deal the star, sources said.”
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - DanSchwartzgan - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 03:45 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: Agree there are red flags but no player is perfect. Kuzma is really good at basketball. I have no idea if he will work out but
Jamison red flag scorer who doesn't play defense, turned into a fan favorite
Butler inconsistent, turned in to a fan favorite
Jerry Stackhouse (who I forgot earlier), scoring chucker, turned in to an all time fan favorite
Terry, best player on a bad team, not a point guard, turned into a Championship
Kidd, old washed up, turned into Championship
Porzingis, injured, turned out poorly but did the Mavs give up too soon?
People hated the Marion trade. Great in Phoenix, but he was crap for two stops before arriving here. He was great here.
People hated SD based on what he had done that season coming off an injury and weren't willing to look at his past work. He was an important cog in an improbably WCF run.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - Chicagojk - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 04:13 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: People hated the Marion trade. Great in Phoenix, but he was crap for two stops before arriving here. He was great here.
People hated SD based on what he had done that season coming off an injury and weren't willing to look at his past work. He was an important cog in an improbably WCF run.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
I am not saying I am all in on Kuzma. Depending on what else is available, I don't think I would have trouble moving Hardaway (probably winding up with a third team) and 27th first for Kuzma. I would shy away if more was needed.
I have always been in the camp that it is important to be opportunistic but cautious. Our move isn't happening until this offseason. I think I can view Kuzma as opportunistic if that was the cost though. It sort of concerns me that Dallas may be acting desperate. That would not be a good spot with this team.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - SleepingHero - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 02:42 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: If 11 teams have 75% of the available picks, doesn't that mean those 11 teams are well positioned to outbid us for anything worth having?
No not necessarily. The teams with the 3 most picks are the Jazz, Spurs, and OKC. OKC of course can out bid any one at any time. They've seem reluctant to do so. And truthfully looking at their picks, most of them are very late protected and aren't nearly as valuable as say an unprotected 2031 FRP from Dallas. Jazz are more motivated for a guard than a wing or big. They were all in on Dame. So theoretically they aren't going to be bidding against the same dudes the Mavs would be after. Same with the Spurs.
(02-02-2024, 02:42 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Chicago is right. When is the last time a deal was announced and we all sat around and said...'man, that was cheap'. 'I can't believe it only cost....'. That never happens. We can be staunchly opposed to this or that, but we need to be somewhat realistic. We overvalue our stuff compared to reality.
We can talk about two seconds and this/that if we want. To me, it feels so unrealistic that I don't see the point. We know the price tag is higher than that and if that is the stand we take then what we are staunchly opposed to is completing a deal.
Kuzma with Lively, Luka, Green and Kyrie solves our starting five for years to come. Gafford with GWill, DJJ, Hardy and Exum is a very solid bench for years to come. OMax is a bet. None of us know if that bet will pay off (Free Roddy B). 2027 is painful. I get it. I'd love an unprotected swap so at least we'd have a pick. Maybe that can happen. But we can fill two holes at once if we do something like this. I guess I like the outcome. I've never been a huge Kuzma fan myself. But, the end result makes sense to me.
There have been COUNTLESS deals we've sat here and said wow thats so cheap in the last 2 years! Dereck White (a player that's better than Kuzma through and through) was gotten for the corpse of Josh Richardson and a conditional 1st (which ended up being 25th) and a swap. We all thought it was a steal.
Mason Plumlee to the Clips for Reggie Jackson and a 2nd was another great deal. The Suns traded away Jalen Smith for a 2nd pick and the corpse of Terry Craig.
There are deals to be made. Of course Kuzma won't be cheap, but to include 2027 for him I think is silly. I'd be much more interested in converting one of our guys into a 1st and then using it for Kuzma.
I just think we're worlds apart on Kuzma's expected contributions. I see a larger, more immature THJ, who is even less efficient. I'm so not into paying a premium for him.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - mvossman - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 04:13 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: People hated the Marion trade. Great in Phoenix, but he was crap for two stops before arriving here. He was great here.
People hated SD based on what he had done that season coming off an injury and weren't willing to look at his past work. He was an important cog in an improbably WCF run.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
People hated the Rondo trade too. I'm not sure folks hating a trade is a ringing endorsement.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - HoosierDaddyKidd - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 04:47 PM)mvossman Wrote: People hated the Rondo trade too. I'm not sure folks hating a trade is a ringing endorsement.
Thing is, Rondo bumped heads with RC as soon as he got here. That marriage was doomed from the start.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - vfromlmf - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 04:47 PM)mvossman Wrote: People hated the Rondo trade too. I'm not sure folks hating a trade is a ringing endorsement.
Rondo wasn't the best player on the 2014 Celtics. My point wasn't to argue for just any guy. My point was to note Kuzma is the best player on an NBA team. Yes, he's not perfect but you don't get to be the best player, the clear no 1 option, on an NBA team unless you're pretty damn good, even if flawed. The players I mentioned WERE "the best" on the team they were traded from, moreover, most turned out way better than expected, despite obvious flaws.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - Nowitzki Way - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 03:45 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: Agree there are red flags but no player is perfect. Kuzma is really good at basketball. I have no idea if he will work out but
Jamison red flag scorer who doesn't play defense, turned into a fan favorite
Butler inconsistent, turned in to a fan favorite
Jerry Stackhouse (who I forgot earlier), scoring chucker, turned in to an all time fan favorite
Terry, best player on a bad team, not a point guard, turned into a Championship
Kidd, old washed up, turned into Championship
Porzingis, injured, turned out poorly but did the Mavs give up too soon?
Look, where can we order up another one of the Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood, DeShawn Stevenson trades??? Hmm Washington open for business again?
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - mvossman - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 04:53 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: Rondo wasn't the best player on the 2014 Celtics. My point wasn't to argue for just any guy. My point was to note Kuzma is the best player on an NBA team. Yes, he's not perfect but you don't get to be the best player, the clear no 1 option, on an NBA team unless you're pretty damn good, even if flawed. The players I mentioned WERE "the best" on the team they were traded from, moreover, most turned out way better than expected, despite obvious flaws.
I was responding to Dan's post who brought up that folks hated trading for Marion.
As for your original point, I feel like that is too small a sample to draw much conclusion from. Every situation is different.
Don't get me wrong, if we pull this trigger (and its sounding like there is a good chance we do) I hope I am wrong. I hope we see this second gear on defense consistently, I hope he calms down his chucking while playing with Luka and Kyire, and I hope his personality doesn't end up being an issue. Thats a lot of hope.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - vfromlmf - 02-02-2024
Another note along the same lines. PJ Washington isn't the best player on CHA. He's probably 4th. Is he better than Kuzma? Maybe, but I don't think so. PJ might be a better teammate, a better low utilization role player, maybe better fit in Dallas. I don't know. But he's certainly never had to be the no 1 option, he's never been the focal point of an opposing defense, and he's never had to lead quite like Kuzma has. PJ has never had to put up 22 ppg every single night to avoid a blowout. Maybe PJ could get there if he had his own team. I don't know.
Now, you can argue Kuz isn't a great no 1 and I would agree, but he doesn't have to be that here.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - BigDirk41 - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 01:51 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Guys, guys, guys… I can’t believe I have to remind you of this:
The Maps cannot trade O-Max. I forbid it.
I agree the Maps can't trade O-Max, but the Mavs can
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - vfromlmf - 02-02-2024
https://x.com/Mavs_FFL/status/1753519622433751061?s=20
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - mvossman - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 05:11 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: Another note along the same lines. PJ Washington isn't the best player on CHA. He's probably 4th. Is he better than Kuzma? Maybe, but I don't think so. PJ might be a better teammate, a better low utilization role player, maybe better fit in Dallas. I don't know. But he's certainly never had to be the no 1 option, he's never been the focal point of an opposing defense, and he's never had to lead quite like Kuzma has. PJ has never had to put up 22 ppg every single night to avoid a blowout. Maybe PJ could get there if he had his own team. I don't know.
Now, you can argue Kuz isn't a great no 1 and I would agree, but he doesn't have to be that here.
I guess I don't get this infatuation with a number one offense guy. We already have Luka and Kyrie. What we really need is a strong defender that can be a number 3 on offense. Being a number 3 is a different mindset on offense, and some guys struggle with it, especially if they have been the number 1 for the last couple of years. I would rather have a guy that I know can be an efficient number 3 than a guy that i know can be an inefficient 1 and might be able to alter his game to a more efficient 3.
The real problem is that we are paying the price tag for a "number 1". PJ has similar defense and offensive efficiency concerns, but the price tag is lower. If it turns out he is not what we hoped for, we burn less assets to discover it and its easier to recover from.
(02-02-2024, 05:24 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: https://x.com/Mavs_FFL/status/1753519622433751061?s=20
I love Dorian, but I hope that means multiple seconds.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - BigDirk41 - 02-02-2024
(02-02-2024, 05:24 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: https://x.com/Mavs_FFL/status/1753519622433751061?s=20
If that compensation is 2nd round picks, sure. I'm not giving up a first for DFS as much as I enjoyed his time as a Mav.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - BigDirk41 - 02-02-2024
Can you guys imagine THJ and Poole as a back court. That would be hilarious to watch. I like THJ, but his efficiency will go to hell without Luka.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Mavs connected with Kuz, Wiggs, PJ, Grant, and DFS - Chicagojk - 02-02-2024
I would love DFs back. He would fill my want of 3-4 worker bees who do the small things to let your stars be stars.
I just don’t see a fit. I wouldn’t offer a first. I wouldn’t offer Green or Omax . I don’t think Williams is traded. He has not been good but how about we coach him up and put him in better spots. Most of the blame goes to Grant but let’s build him up a bit. Eventually I think he will be moved but not now.
I dont think the nets would want Hardaway and I am not sure losing Hardaway offense with no third option works for this year.