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+--- Thread: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms (/showthread.php?tid=2444)
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RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - mvossman - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 01:03 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Here’s what I think I know about PJ Washington:
He would instantly be one of the fastest players on the team, and his athletic profile in general would stand out on this roster in such a great way. Seriously, in a package that size, he is a weapon, athletically. A difference maker.
I don’t distrust the metrics claiming he is not a plus defender, or think they are lying, but my eyes have seen him perform as a very good defender on more than one occasion, and there is nothing in his skill set to suggest he would have any limitation on defense, whatsoever. In fact, he has the prototypical, ideal set of tools to be a defensive difference maker as a forward. I don’t think he has any history we can point to where he was disruptive as Jeremi Grant was in Denver or prior to that, but I do think the conversation about Washington’s defense is similar to the one about Grant’s. I think both players have focused on becoming more offensively skilled so that they could get paid. Now that Washington has gotten paid, like Grant, I feel the question is: Would he be interested in accepting a more glue-guy/defender role here as a bridge to WINNING. If the answer is no for either, you probably don’t want them. But if the answer is yes then you have added a difference making player. I stand by that.
PJ Washington’s off-ball game on offense is CRAZY good for a 4. There’s been so much talk of replacing THJ‘s offense, and he actually might be able to do it, because he does not need the ball to impact the game on offense. Really good, fast release. Has a variety of different solutions to get his shot off on the move… Lots of great and varied foot work. Spacing for this team would improve a ton with PJ out there instead of Grant Williams, and that is coming from someone who was excited about the positive impact Williams would have on the team’s spacing.
Anything they do is going to be a risk. That’s what roster management in professional sports is. Taking risks. PJ Washington on this new deal is a risk I would take without even the slightest hesitation, especially considering how low the price for him seems to be.
To my understanding of what’s out there, he represents the most upside the Mavs can currently afford without compromising their ability to make a big move in the near future.
What do you think his price is? Would GWill get it done? Would Mavs trade Gwill? Do we really think Holmes + Hardy does it? What do we do with GWill if we bring in PJ.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - omahen - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 01:03 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Here’s what I think I know about PJ Washington:
He would instantly be one of the fastest players on the team, and his athletic profile in general would stand out on this roster in such a great way. Seriously, in a package that size, he is a weapon, athletically. A difference maker.
I don’t distrust the metrics claiming he is not a plus defender, or think they are lying, but my eyes have seen him perform as a very good defender on more than one occasion, and there is nothing in his skill set to suggest he would have any limitation on defense, whatsoever. In fact, he has the prototypical, ideal set of tools to be a defensive difference maker as a forward. I don’t think he has any history we can point to where he was disruptive as Jeremi Grant was in Denver or prior to that, but I do think the conversation about Washington’s defense is similar to the one about Grant’s. I think both players have focused on becoming more offensively skilled so that they could get paid. Now that Washington has gotten paid, like Grant, I feel the question is: Would he be interested in accepting a more glue-guy/defender role here as a bridge to WINNING. If the answer is no for either, you probably don’t want them. But if the answer is yes then you have added a difference making player. I stand by that.
PJ Washington’s off-ball game on offense is CRAZY good for a 4. There’s been so much talk of replacing THJ‘s offense, and he actually might be able to do it, because he does not need the ball to impact the game on offense. Really good, fast release. Has a variety of different solutions to get his shot off on the move… Lots of great and varied foot work. Spacing for this team would improve a ton with PJ out there instead of Grant Williams, and that is coming from someone who was excited about the positive impact Williams would have on the team’s spacing.
Anything they do is going to be a risk. That’s what roster management in professional sports is. Taking risks. PJ Washington on this new deal is a risk I would take without even the slightest hesitation, especially considering how low the price for him seems to be.
To my understanding of what’s out there, he represents the most upside the Mavs can currently afford without compromising their ability to make a big move in the near future.
I don't share your enthusiasm, but I wouldn't mind taking the risk if price is not 2027 pick. Perhaps Green. I doubt Charlotte will be selling for such low assets, unless Mavs find positive value for THJ
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - SleepingHero - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 01:36 PM)mvossman Wrote: What do you think his price is? Would GWill get it done? Would Mavs trade Gwill? Do we really think Holmes + Hardy does it? What do we do with GWill if we bring in PJ.
PJ's price definitely is nebulous. He's not worth a 1st. But he's also not worth junk. I'd probably peg his value around THJ if not a little lower given the contract. So maybe Holmes+Hardy+ a 2nd.
I don't think PJ does anything really to affect the GWill role. He'd replace more of DJJ's time imo. He's a wing player that can play bigger than his size.
I've watched some Hornet games this season and truthfully I'm not really impressed by him. His defense is really mediocre to bad. His shooting is hot and cold.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - omahen - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 01:40 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: PJ's price definitely is nebulous. He's not worth a 1st. But he's also not worth junk. I'd probably peg his value around THJ if not a little lower given the contract. So maybe Holmes+Hardy+ a 2nd.
I don't think PJ does anything really to affect the GWill role. He'd replace more of DJJ's time imo. He's a wing player that can play bigger than his size.
I've watched some Hornet games this season and truthfully I'm not really impressed by him. His defense is really mediocre to bad. His shooting is hot and cold.
If PJ is coming in, THJ needs to go out. Not enough shots around for everyone
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - surfpuckmd - 01-23-2024
It's not surprising that we lost to the Celtics. They're clearly the NBA's best team. I don't think we looked that far away though.
Luka, Kyrie and Lively is a great start to a contender. We need one more above-average starter. I don't think we can obtain that player for the assets we currently have available. I think that will be more likely this coming summer when we have multiple first-round picks available. I think we should wait until this coming summer to make a big move.
We need to continue to see what we have with post-injury Kleber and OMax. That will help determine what position we need to upgrade this coming summer. Josh Green is starting to look better and so we can monitor whether his role is something we might need to upgrade or not.
The easiest manner for us to upgrade this team is to change coaches. Kidd loses games for us. We look really unorganized on both sides of the ball. It's almost like we're playing without a coach sometimes. Luka any Kyrie are so brilliant individually that it mostly still works on offense but we just seems lost on defense much of the time.
I think a better coach probably improves us by 3-5 wins over the course of the year.
Another important factor that really hurts us is the disparity in officiating. I think we're all tired of Luka's incessant whining to the officials. However, the reality is that he is being fouled a lot and most of them are not called. He doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt as does Embiid or Gilgeous Alexander. Kidd doesn't seem to react to all the missed calls. He should. It's Kidd's job to stick up for his players when they're not being officiated fairly. Kidd's silence puts Luka in a position where he is having to advocate for himself. I hate to say Kidd sucks but he definitely sucks at coaching basketball.
I also think there's some historical resentment from the officials against Mark Cuban. I don't recall another NBA owner ever publicly chastising the NBA officials. I can understand why there would be some bias against the Mavs because of it. Cuban doesn't seem to make public statements about it anymore but I still think it's an issue. I think Mark should appear less as the face of the Mavs. It's also probably time to send him to a suite during games where we don't all have to look at his reactions.
In summary, the rest of the season should be an opportunity to see what we have with Kleber, OMax and Green. This coming off-season will be time to upgrade our coaching and banish Mark Cuban to a much less visible position with the Mavericks. It will also be the best time to upgrade our starting 5. Improvement can be a slow and steady process.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - mvossman - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 01:40 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: PJ's price definitely is nebulous. He's not worth a 1st. But he's also not worth junk. I'd probably peg his value around THJ if not a little lower given the contract. So maybe Holmes+Hardy+ a 2nd.
I don't think PJ does anything really to affect the GWill role. He'd replace more of DJJ's time imo. He's a wing player that can play bigger than his size.
I've watched some Hornet games this season and truthfully I'm not really impressed by him. His defense is really mediocre to bad. His shooting is hot and cold.
DJJ is playing better than both PJ and GWill right now, so I don't know how much sense it make for him to lose minutes. If Timmy is outgoing I would see PJ basically taking those minutes. That helps our size issues with the second unit as well. Actually as I think about it, I think I would be ok with a Timmy for PJ swap.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - SleepingHero - 01-23-2024
Dime Alerts (@dimealerts)
Portland is open to trading Robert Williams III
(Via @ChrisBHaynes)
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - KillerLeft - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 01:37 PM)omahen Wrote: I don't share your enthusiasm, but I wouldn't mind taking the risk if price is not 2027 pick. Perhaps Green. I doubt Charlotte will be selling for such low assets, unless Mavs find positive value for THJ
To address this AND the question Mvossman asked before, I would NOT give up the '27 UNPROTECTED for Washington. I wouldn't even consider it.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - omahen - 01-23-2024
Wow, Milwaukee fired coach Griffin. Not a great look for Giannis who was reportedly his strong advocate in the summer.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - omahen - 01-23-2024
Ha, ha, ha. Now Shams says Rivers is a serious option to replace him
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - KillerLeft - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 02:46 PM)omahen Wrote: Ha, ha, ha. Now Shams says Rivers is a serious option to replace him
No more Championships for Giannis.
I don't feel sorry for him - should've come here to play with Luka like he was supposed to.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - youzigizag - 01-23-2024
I know we need front court help.
But Green and Pj have similar annual average contract...and posters here seem to not like Green's play for the pay. Completely uneducated opinion....but Green seems to pop off the screen way more than PJ when I watch. PJ seems to be just like Collins...just doesnt pop off your screen at all.
If Killer has done his research and thinks the guy can defend....obviously he is long and can hit 3's which fits our scheme and need...I guess take a chance if cheap.
Luka effect, better team....could turn this guy into a gamer. Just seems like a lot of hope but who knows. I would scour other bargain bin items unless he has been identified as the best obtainable that fits Mavs scheme. I would probably agree that he is better than what we have.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - KillerLeft - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 03:02 PM)youzigizag Wrote: I know we need front court help.
But Green and Pj have similar annual average contract...and posters here seem to not like Green's play for the pay. Completely uneducated opinion....but Green seems to pop off the screen way more than PJ when I watch. PJ seems to be just like Collins...just doesnt pop off your screen at all.
If Killer has done his research and thinks the guy can defend....obviously he is long and can hit 3's which fits our scheme and need...I guess take a chance if cheap.
Luka effect, better team....could turn this guy into a gamer. Just seems like a lot of hope but who knows. I would scour other bargain bin items unless he has been identified as the best obtainable that fits Mavs scheme. I would probably agree that he is better than what we have.
The comparison to Green isn't awful, but it's also not great. Green is a 2/3. Washington is SQUARELY a 4, with no overlap (imo) into the 3. In fact, he's more 5 than 3. I'm a fan, but then again, I'm one of the only people around here who doesn't think getting bigger is the answer.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - omahen - 01-23-2024
This one is funny
https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/1749887737061138747?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1749887737061138747%7Ctwgr%5E74c7598205f8d4d8d9ca4f3e10004f408f16a6b0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Fnba
https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/1749885549479956885?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1749885549479956885%7Ctwgr%5E74c7598205f8d4d8d9ca4f3e10004f408f16a6b0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Fnba
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - F Gump - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 03:24 PM)omahen Wrote: This one is funny
https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/1749887737061138747?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1749887737061138747%7Ctwgr%5E74c7598205f8d4d8d9ca4f3e10004f408f16a6b0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Fnba
https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/1749885549479956885?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1749885549479956885%7Ctwgr%5E74c7598205f8d4d8d9ca4f3e10004f408f16a6b0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Fnba
Trade Kidd to the Bucks?
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - omahen - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 03:27 PM)F Gump Wrote: Trade Kidd to the Bucks?
We don't have enough assets
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - SleepingHero - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 03:24 PM)omahen Wrote: This one is funny
https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/1749887737061138747?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1749887737061138747%7Ctwgr%5E74c7598205f8d4d8d9ca4f3e10004f408f16a6b0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Fnba
https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/1749885549479956885?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1749885549479956885%7Ctwgr%5E74c7598205f8d4d8d9ca4f3e10004f408f16a6b0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Fnba
It'd be hilarious if they brought back Bud.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - Chicagojk - 01-23-2024
I think that is the right move. Despite the record, the Bucks looked off. In reality, even after signing Giannis they have maybe a 2 year period....if they still even have one, to win a title. I actually think Doc is a good choice as an alternative. He has his faults but putting a coach from outside the organization is almost impossible during the season. I think Doc will be able to improve things there. Not sure they are a top 3 seed though in the East.
Rough few months for the Griffin family. Coach gets his first head coaching job and loses his job 43 games in. Last year pick AJ Griffin is now out of the terrible Hawks rotation. More importantly, I believe they had a family tragedy over the summer as well.
Adrian Griffin...sneaky fun Mav back in the day.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - RGP1981 - 01-23-2024
(01-23-2024, 02:46 PM)omahen Wrote: Ha, ha, ha. Now Shams says Rivers is a serious option to replace him
This gets better! Apparently, Doc Rivers acted as a consultant to Adrian Griffin... and now he's taken Griffin's job.
https://twitter.com/big_business_/status/1749904722025132269
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein: Lakers have had most talks w/Hawks over Murray - DanSchwartzgan - 01-24-2024
So, an expiring deal (worthless on court) and a lottery protected 2027 gets you Rozier.
First, let's define Rozier...smallish scoring guard who is 29 and owed $50mm after this season. Over the last four seasons his EPM has been 86, 81, 65 and 76 (avg 77) on the strength of an O-EPM that averages 90 and a D-EPM that averages 24. In PF terms, probably the closest comp to that EPM average of 77 is Tobias Harris if Tobias was locked up for $25mm/year. Draymond is sitting on a 76 this year with a four year average of 89. He is locked up for about $25mm/year. J. Grant has averaged a 77 and he's locked up for a lot more than $25mm/year. If you are willing to ignore this season, Wiggins averaged a 77 the four years before that. Kuzma and PJ don't come close to this type of average EPM over the last four years.
We can argue all day whether Tobias/Draymond/Grant et al is better or worse than this guy or that. That isn't the question here. The question is what do we have that might land us a player of that Rozier-esque quality. We have a 2027 pick that can be variously protected (or not). We don't have an expiring Lowry-type deal. THJ probably has more on-court value than Lowry, but you have to find a team that doesn't mind the extra year and needs the archetype. Otherwise, to get a Rozier level player you have to protect the pick less than the lottery protection on the Miami pick or you have to add youth.
Rozier isn't a star, but he's a good-ish 3rd best player and a very good 4th/5th best player. The same with many of the types of players we've been linked to. Harris probably doesn't move at the TDL and the rest all have a wart or two. Draymond is crazy, Grant is paid too much and Wiggins sucks this season are examples. I'm not sure any of the usual suspects moves the needle, but I do think we can get in the game for most with THJ and a lightly protected 2027. If you put Holmes or GWill in the deal (to match the higher dollar guys), then you probably have to compensate for that.
But, to what end. Outside of peak Draymond, I'm not sure anyone here changes things for 23/24. That's why I'm more interested in younger guys like WCJ, P Williams, Avdija and Kuminga. The salaries and age of those guys makes much more sense to me than the usual suspect. They aren't the final piece for 23/24 either, but they could be an important piece for the seasons beyond this.