MavsBoard
Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - Printable Version

+- MavsBoard (https://www.mavsboard.com)
+-- Forum: Boards (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Dallas Mavericks and the NBA (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+--- Thread: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms (/showthread.php?tid=2444)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - ItsGoTime - 11-14-2023

I don’t think LAC would get the packages they need to pull the trigger on a firesale. I think with the price they just paid for Harden, PG is the odd man out and they try to get a decent package for him at some point this year.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - omahen - 11-14-2023

(11-14-2023, 10:59 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I don’t think LAC would get the packages they need to pull the trigger on a firesale. I think with the price they just paid for Harden, PG is the odd man out and they try to get a decent package for him at some point this year.

I agree Clippers will not go into firesale. But, all their "stars" are expiring. And if one (or more) makes it clear he has no intention to resign, they don't have much choice but trade him. As I said - George and Kawhi tend to get where they want to.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - DallasMaverick - 11-14-2023

(11-14-2023, 11:15 AM)omahen Wrote: I agree Clippers will not go into firesale. But, all their "stars" are expiring. And if one (or more) makes it clear he has no intention to resign, they don't have much choice but trade him. As I said - George and Kawhi tend to get where they want to.

The Clippers pushed all their chips in ... and lost.

Traded all their present and many future assets away in order to win now.

They swung for the fences, but the line drive was a little short.

Now, they've got 4 aging (and fragile) former superstars, but no significant building blocks for the future, and no clear path for relevance.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear!  Lessons to be learned!


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - mvossman - 11-14-2023

(11-14-2023, 03:19 AM)omahen Wrote: In my opinion this core with even more improved Lively (every year of experience) and very good (if not elite) 2-way wing is a contender. I think that one player would put many guys in the correct role and perhaps create even better impact from certain players. But, he has to be the right fit for this team. I can't imagine how could you put much better rotation players on the bench, other than perhaps just tinkering around the edges for perfect players for specific roles. Mavs problem in all Luka years has always been just lack of top end talent. Too many decent players instead of a couple of great ones and a little lower number of decent ones. Mavs finally have an opportunity to nicely close a top end of the roster with imho just one correct move.

In any case, Mavs have imho about 2-year window with Kyrie. If one doesn't believe they can build a contender in this window, than he should start making plans about how a contender without Irving (or Irving in a reduced capacity and role) would look like. We would be suddenly dealing with a whole different puzzle to solve. 2-way wings are always good to have, but we would need to bring in another star to replace Kyrie. And these tend to be way more difficult to get.

I think with a good season and playoff showing this year that 2 way wing for next season has a high potential for reaching contention status.  We will have 3 firsts, some young players and salary fodder to make that happen if its there.  Depending on the player, he can potentially help ease the hopefully slow decline of Kyrie.

Edit: I seem you were also thinking next season vs TDL. That's the path in my mind. Make good progress this season, and go for it next.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - ItsGoTime - 11-14-2023

I don’t see a reason to forgo the TDL in favor of next offseason. Getting fitting players on the team should be a year-round activity.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - omahen - 11-14-2023

(11-14-2023, 12:29 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I don’t see a reason to forgo the TDL in favor of next offseason. Getting fitting players on the team should be a year-round activity.

If the opportunity comes, I would of course take. But I think it is more likely to happen in the summer. Something minor might happen at TDL, but I don't think they will spend 2027 on a role player.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - Jakeospikez - 11-14-2023

I think it's possible OG might be available this TDL if everything falls into place somehow. Raptors would have to be struggling and he would have to tell them they have to trade him because he's not taking the PO and also not resigning under any circumstance, stuff like that. If the Mavs at that point are in win-now mode and the west looks weak, I wonder if they'd be willing to do something like OMax + Green + THJ for salary matching + 2027 1st for OG + Filler. Would need to free up some cap to resign OG at his new big deal next year as well I think. Imo Hardy+Exum can take over THJ's vacated minutes. Hardy has a similar quick trigger to THJ so I don't think much would be lost.

If the Raps are struggling even a little, don't see how Siakam isn't moved. They're probably trying to inflate his value right now. I wouldn't give up those assets for Siakam personally though, just OG. Although maybe if they planned on Siakam has a frequent small ball 5, maybe that would be worth it.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - Mike lorenzo - 11-14-2023

I love OG and I think he is the perfect fit for this team but... I see that this summer his contract could start at 42 million!!! and that's scary, I'm starting to see him differently, he also gets hurt frequently etc.. Maybe the next one would be J.Grant? In my opinion Siakam is a vastly better player than OG...although a worse fit and here we would not get the most out of his abilities


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - youzigizag - 11-14-2023

(11-14-2023, 01:41 PM)Jakeospikez Wrote: I think it's possible OG might be available this TDL if everything falls into place somehow. Raptors would have to be struggling and he would have to tell them they have to trade him because he's not taking the PO and also not resigning under any circumstance, stuff like that. If the Mavs at that point are in win-now mode and the west looks weak, I wonder if they'd be willing to do something like OMax + Green + THJ for salary matching + 2027 1st for OG + Filler. Would need to free up some cap to resign OG at his new big deal next year as well I think. Imo Hardy+Exum can take over THJ's vacated minutes. Hardy has a similar quick trigger to THJ so I don't think much would be lost.

If the Raps are struggling even a little, don't see how Siakam isn't moved. They're probably trying to inflate his value right now. I wouldn't give up those assets for Siakam personally though, just OG. Although maybe if they planned on Siakam has a frequent small ball 5, maybe that would be worth it.

Thats a bit rich for me.

OG by all means may be the most valuable player in this deal...most likely certainly is.   But Mavs are giving up young potential and a flame thrower that seems to dialed in his defense a little but is also a great culture guy and needed leader in locker room with Kyrie and Dwight.

If team evaluations of Omax are terrible and he doesnt fit their Kyrie timeline by holding his hand until he gets playable....and if THJ is not happy being a bench roll player...maybe I pull this trigger.

THJ scoring threat, drawing charges, better defensive play and locker room guy plus Green whom is young and hustles and has developed a three shot plus OMax who looks raw but could turn into a defensive stud in this league seems like 2 starting level players plus potential IDEAL MODERN NBA sized wing for 1 player.

Gotta give to get.   Im just curious if OG is worth 2 cheap players that fit with Luka(Green, THJ) and a possible 3rd on rookie contract that has ideal size and could turn into a defensive stud.

Kidd must hate Green's game,  THJ is older but spreads the floor for Luka and is playing above his contract or neutral(not a 25M+ cost for 18pts per game and decent defense).

Just seems risky even though all 3 players have warts.

Maybe Luka, Williams, OG, Lively can get it done. Losing depth though.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - F Gump - 11-14-2023

Trades at the deadline this year may be weird. And there are consequences of being over aprons when your season ends, even in May-June, that are going to be a real hassle in team building. Some are permanent (such as you lose your TPEs). So some teams won't want to wait until July - when salary rolls off the books - to address it.

Also, there will be NO teams in position to take extra salary at no cost (ie, under the minimum). But there is a lot of trade flexibility for teams who are not near the tax line to take a BIG multiple of extra salary in trade. So there may be a LOT of activity, and perhaps some useful players on the move, followed by buyouts or maybe even decent players being rerouted to a 3rd team.

In May-June and after, trades start to get really tricky for higher salary teams. Some of the rules will lower the match to force teams to take back less salary, or will keep players from being combined to match another salary, will prohibit SNTs outgoing as well as incoming, will keep teams from having and using TPEs, etc. That's something coming as well.

Somewhere in all of that, obviously the Mavs would try to move Holmes, if he's not going to be used, but I'm not sure how that trade looks. I don't see them using FRP if the ONLY benefit is being shed of Holmes. I think of McGee and how their focused intentions on him led to nothing.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Kawhi Frustrated. Zion "Trying my best to buy in" - Jakeospikez - 11-14-2023

(11-14-2023, 03:19 AM)omahen Wrote: In any case, Mavs have imho about 2-year window with Kyrie. If one doesn't believe they can build a contender in this window, than he should start making plans about how a contender without Irving (or Irving in a reduced capacity and role) would look like. We would be suddenly dealing with a whole different puzzle to solve. 2-way wings are always good to have, but we would need to bring in another star to replace Kyrie. And these tend to be way more difficult to get.

Don't agree with the 2 year Kyrie window. He's 31 and has shown no signs of slowing down. Lillard is 33 right now and playing perfectly fine. KD is 35. Imo it's more like a 4 year window barring a major injury somewhere inbetween.

If OG is looking for 42 mil then yeah, easily out on that. I think Collins would be great here, too bad they couldn't find a way to get that done this offseason.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Shams: Bulls looking to trade Lavine? Big changes in CHI coming? - SleepingHero - 11-15-2023

@ShamsCharania
Developing: NBA teams are probing the availability of Bulls two-time All-Star Zach LaVine and there is increased openness from both sides about exploring a trade, sources say.

https://streamable.com/ct7jci
Shams says here that the Lakers, 76ers, and Miami Heat are expected to consider a trade for LaVine. 

Bulls beat writer also said this:

@DarnellMayberry
One league source told me this week the Bulls won't have the same roster in a month. Change feels imminent in Chicago.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Shams: Bulls looking to trade Lavine? Big changes in CHI coming? - DanSchwartzgan - 11-15-2023

(11-15-2023, 01:06 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: @ShamsCharania
Developing: NBA teams are probing the availability of Bulls two-time All-Star Zach LaVine and there is increased openness from both sides about exploring a trade, sources say.

https://streamable.com/ct7jci
Shams says here that the Lakers, 76ers, and Miami Heat are expected to consider a trade for LaVine. 

Bulls beat writer also said this:

@DarnellMayberry
One league source told me this week the Bulls won't have the same roster in a month. Change feels imminent in Chicago.

Confirmed.  Duffy client and fellow Balkan Boy, Nicola Vucevic coming to Dallas.


JamesConway912 - JamesConway912 - 11-15-2023

Depends on the role.

If it ends up being Vuceving starting and playing 30mpg with Lively/Powell/Kleber fighting for the C-scraps behind him = ugh

If Lively keeps his starting & high minutes role and Vucevic basically splits the 48 Center minutes with him 50/50 then I’d be all on board. Powell would be turned into a third stringer though and Kleber would have to play PF almost exclusively. I’d be okay with both but Lively has been so good this early that he has absolutely earned his spot. You can not ruin that now by forcing a 30+ year old non difference maker ahead of him into the rotation. 

Irving | Exum
Doncic | Hardy | Curry
Jones Jr | Green | Omax
Williams | Kleber | Morris
Lively | Vucevic | Powell | Holmes

Hardaway would be going out and be replaced internally. I am not as high on Hardy as others around here but it would make sense to free up minutes for him. If he fails to succeed you’d still have Exum/Curry/Green to replace him, should be alright.

Besides the physicality and skill Vucevic would bring he’s also - at times - been a very good shooter from the C spot. That’s something we could REALLY use.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Shams: Bulls looking to trade Lavine? Big changes in CHI coming? - KillerLeft - 11-15-2023

(11-15-2023, 03:09 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Confirmed.  Duffy client and fellow Balkan Boy, Nicola Vucevic coming to Dallas.

Not into this idea, exactly, but would prefer it to some of the other bigs mentioned. Vucevic would make this offense even more lethal, and would give them an entirely different way to play.


RE: JamesConway912 - DanSchwartzgan - 11-15-2023

(11-15-2023, 06:44 AM)JamesConway912 Wrote: Depends on the role.

Hardaway would be going out and be replaced internally.  

Agree with all you said except I'm envisioning the outgoing being Holmes/Pick instead of THJ.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Shams: Bulls looking to trade Lavine? Big changes in CHI coming. - Nowitzki Way - 11-15-2023

I'd be on board for Vucevic. Especially if the price is Holmes or Hardaway.

I think he slots in nicely to take those Center minutes when Lively is not on the floor. I'm sure Vuc starts and Lively comes off the bench for now.


RE: JamesConway912 - Mavs2021 - 11-15-2023

Breaking down that Bulls team is a mess. The individual numbers of DeRozan, Vucevic and Lavine are career-worst levels. Go figure out what is situational and what is age for example. 

Take DeRozan. 

I think he is a super-reliable pro´s pro that is rarely injured. That also means that at age 34, he´s played the 9th most career games amongst  active players. The only starter that has played more games is LeBron, who is taking a two week vacation every January and is judged by a different set of rules.

Positives:

- Ultimate professional
- Position of need
- Expiring contract, no long-term commitment

Negatives:

- Lots of mileage
- Position of need, but not necessarily skills of need (aka defense)

Take Vucevic.

He´s basically the center version of DeRozan (age, games played, strengths and weaknesses). Only difference is that with his age and Lively´s level of play, it would be a designated bench role coming at 60/3 deal, that is pretty hefty for that specific assignment and could hamper your future roster building. Interior bench scoring/rebounding are positional needs. Yet you still have a lack of defense.

One positive from the Grant Williams interview was the takeaway that the Mavs had finally (?) started to work on a deal with Duffy for months before the S&T materialized and I´m pretty confident the same is the case here. They´ll have very good info on Vucevic. Maybe they were happy to gamble on Lively starting, and temporarily keeping Holmes, because they already knew Vucevic was going to become an option and the Mavs were a preferred destination.  

I seriously doubt his demand around the league will be very high, especially compared to Lavine and DeRozan. Usually contenders don´t look for big "dinosaur" centers that have a bad defensive reputation and rebuilding teams have no use for 33 years old with three years left on their contract. Honestly think Holmes + Kleber + 2nd round pick should be enough here. Bulls can turn Kleber into additional minor assets.


RE: JamesConway912 - DanSchwartzgan - 11-15-2023

(11-15-2023, 08:15 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote:  

DeRozan Negatives:

- Lots of mileage
- Position of need, but not necessarily skills of need (aka defense)

Take Vucevic.

He´s basically the center version of DeRozan (age, games played, strengths and weaknesses). Only difference is that with his age and Lively´s level of play, it would be a designated bench role coming at 60/3 deal, that is pretty hefty for that specific assignment and could hamper your future roster building. Interior bench scoring/rebounding are positional needs. Yet you still have a lack of defense.

One positive from the Grant Williams interview was the takeaway that the Mavs had finally (?) started to work on a deal with Duffy for months before the S&T materialized and I´m pretty confident the same is the case here. They´ll have very good info on Vucevic. Maybe they were happy to gamble on Lively starting, and temporarily keeping Holmes, because they already knew Vucevic was going to become an option and the Mavs were a preferred destination.   

Given Luka's young age, I suspect there will be era's within his tenure here (like the Finley/Nash era of Dirk's career).  I like that Vuc is 3 years which matches Kyrie and is out of the way before you have to extend Lively.  Maybe the next few years you have vets like Irving, Vucevic and THJ in your top 8 while you let the kids season some more.

We have some data on Vucevic and DJJ playing together (D-Rating of 109 last year and 108.5 the season before).  Whether that is a bench tandem or a starting tandem (short term), there probably are ways to get the Vuc positives without being just awful defensively.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Shams: Bulls looking to trade Lavine? Big changes in CHI coming. - Nowitzki Way - 11-15-2023

When i think about adding a Center, i think about no more Powell. That is a positive within itself.

So while Vuc may not fit the age or defensive profile we want. He's better than Dwight Powell. Lively may start all season, but he will not stay on the court long. Especially come playoff time. He has issues with fouling, even in college. The refs seem to hate this guy. We're going to need someone productive for those non-Lively minutes.