(05-07-2023, 12:24 PM)Jakeospikez Wrote: Luka was way too good early and had a championship window during his rookie contract.

What are the thoughts on Jrue vs Zion/Ja in 2019?

(05-07-2023, 06:20 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: All the trade ideas involving Ayton did not age well.  He should have demolished us last year in the series.  Instead he was a nonfactor.  Dude has no heart.

(05-07-2023, 11:34 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: I think it is important to consider PHX current spot on these trades (most have).  PHX is probably in a 3-4 year window (If KD can stay healthy and at his current level of play) and they are void with assets making internal improvement very difficult.  They also have a new owner who I am sure had grand plans.  So any move to trade Ayton needs to be a clear upgrade to them.  This will be difficult if Ayton does not play better, but I don't think new owner will be breaking out his spreadsheet with the goal of getting Howard Eisley.

(05-07-2023, 10:32 PM)F Gump Wrote: Agree - which is why I don't think Ayton is worth the pursuit.

He's a $15-18M player perhaps, with a $32M contract. For THREE years. He is very limited (perhaps unplayable) in the playoffs. That's why he doesn't work in PHX. They knew this already, but paid him that huge deal to retain an "asset" (presumably to cash in the value later). He is who he is. And he eats up $32M.

BUT to get him, PHX wants you to give them good assets -- iow they wont want to pay you somehow to remove that bad contract. Yet you can't afford to GIVE good assets for a hugely overpaid guy who isn't a huge solution (particularly in playoffs) and who clogs your cap from getting the players you really need for THREE years. He would come with great acclaim, no doubt, because juicy regular season stats, but actually would set you backwards. Does sound like a Cuban thing, gotta admit.

(05-07-2023, 11:34 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: I think it is important to consider PHX current spot on these trades (most have).  PHX is probably in a 3-4 year window (If KD can stay healthy and at his current level of play) and they are void with assets making internal improvement very difficult.  They also have a new owner who I am sure had grand plans.  So any move to trade Ayton needs to be a clear upgrade to them.  This will be difficult if Ayton does not play better, but I don't think new owner will be breaking out his spreadsheet with the goal of getting Howard Eisley.

(05-07-2023, 02:45 PM)omahen Wrote: Speaking about reclamation projects

https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status/1655292874567843840

(05-07-2023, 10:52 PM)DallasMaverick Wrote: Maybe similar to asking for a quality starting center in exchange for ... Bertans.

(05-08-2023, 12:17 AM)F Gump Wrote: It's not really a choice between Bertans and Ayton, since PHX will be expecting far more (whether worth it or not). But the 80M in difference between the 2, when NEITHER is the guy you want in a playoff run, is a really big deal because of how limiting it is going to be, when you are trying to add talent you need.

I think Gobert, who is a similar type center on max deal, is a good comp. He looks attractive by stats, so entices a trade chase, but then it's the same playoff limitations. And then you are stuck with him -- as in, no way Minn can flip Gobert for good value.

I don't want to be Minny.

It's the same crossroads as with THJ -- the question is framed as "we don't have anyone better" but the problem is, you are aiming to be stuck with a limiting bad contract, rather than getting good value and a player who can make a difference for you in a title chase. The Mavs have to (1) get OUT OF bad contracts, rather than make that problem even worse, and (2) spend on players who might make a difference, rather than settle for those who you already know are incapable.

(05-08-2023, 12:55 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: Mr. Gump, I hope you know how much I do adore your ideas, but you're painting a catch-22 here. 

How do the Mavs do (1) getting out of bad contracts while simultaneously doing (2) getting players who make a difference.  They have to spend assets to do (1) while also spending assets bringing in (2). The Mavs asset cupboard is on life support. Sure they can bide their time and hope to hit on a pick, but with Kyrie here the doomsday clock is ticking. We've seen it time and again. They need to act fast. 

However, I agree with your logic. Your thoughts are sound and a path to contention, but tangibly where are these difference makers that are readily available? I don't see many. And those I do see aren't available for the assets the Mavs currently have, save maybe 1 giant all in trade where we throw in Green+Hardy+FRPs. But in that scenario are the Mavs truly better off?

That's why I'm at the point where the Mavs have to stomach some bad money if it raises the overall talent floor. ESPECIALLY if the players they're bringing in can ideally grow into a larger role (*cough* Ayton). 

Speaking of, I really think you're overestimating Ayton's perceived value currently. I don't see many teams vying for his services, solely because the teams that would get the maximal value of Ayton are those in contention, and most of them already have a center (and most of those are what we deem already overpaid). 

We need to raise the level of talent on this team by any means necessary. There is no time. Kyrie Doomsday will occur, and when it does there has to be a solid foundation of talent to convince Luka that even sans Kyrie the Mavs are still the place to be. Ayton is such a player that fits the mold, given his age and talent level. Ayton might not be worth his 30+mil price tag currently, and there is little evidence thus far that he will add to his game given his static production since he's entered the league. But I don't discount the Luka effect. And Ayton has shown the skills that are amplified playing next to Luka. 

We can point to him getting played off the floor (though I'll try later on to protest just how often he gets played off the court) sure, that's the life of a center and the cost of doing business in today's NBA. But when Ayton can be used he can be a series defining player. Ask the Suns against the Pelicans last year where Ayton averaged 20/10 on 70% shooting playing 35mpg and led them to a series win without Devin Booker. Or the season where he averaged 37mpg over 22 games when PHX went to the finals and held up against AD, Jokic, and Zubac on the way there. 

Further, he hasn't even been played off the floor this year. He's played 33mpg this playoffs and was benched 1 game due to foul trouble (and an off night which happens to literally everyone).

I'm not trying to paint Ayton as some infallible asset. He isn't perfect by any means. But I'm failing to see another player that matches or exceeds all of the above vs. Ayton: A: Luka's timeline. B: Overall talent level. C: Projected growth in role. D: Theoretical cost of acquisition. 

If you can point me to these impact players you're correctly pointing out the Mavs need that can also be had with what the Mavs currently have asset wise, I'm more than ready to hitch my wagon to the FGump school of thought train. I just don't see it.

(05-08-2023, 05:11 AM)omahen Wrote: Even if a player becomes available because his team drafted Wemby, it doesn't mean they are just giving him away. Are you paying a #10 for Wiseman, because all you can offer contract wise is trash?