(08-04-2023, 10:40 AM)surfpuckmd Wrote: THJ is both a better offensive player and better defensive player than Marvin Bagley.  This would be a tanking move rather than a winning move.  We need players who can hit open 3-pointers and play solid defense next to Kyrie and Luka.  THJ can do both.  Bagley can do neither.  If we want a scoring big off the bench, Christian Wood would be a much better option as he is a good 3-point shooter.  Also, if Jason Kidd didn’t like Christian Wood, he will like Marvin Bagley even less.

(08-04-2023, 09:46 AM)mvossman Wrote: If I recall, one of the biggest reasons Duke played zone was because Bagley was so bad at defense.  I can't count how many times I have read something like, "just coach him up on defense and with his athleticism he should be good" but it rarely plays out that way.  I can think of a few wings that have turned there career around with defense (Wiggins, DSJ) but I can't think of an offense only big who came into the league and turned his career around with defense.

(08-04-2023, 10:40 AM)surfpuckmd Wrote: THJ is both a better offensive player and better defensive player than Marvin Bagley.  This would be a tanking move rather than a winning move.  We need players who can hit open 3-pointers and play solid defense next to Kyrie and Luka.  THJ can do both.  Bagley can do neither.  If we want a scoring big off the bench, Christian Wood would be a much better option as he is a good 3-point shooter.  Also, if Jason Kidd didn’t like Christian Wood, he will like Marvin Bagley even less.

(08-04-2023, 07:58 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: Hardaway is better than Hardy now.  

(08-04-2023, 07:58 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: He is also probably better than Green.    

(08-04-2023, 07:39 PM)RDB Wrote: Before I make my point again, I want to apologize for triggering you with my “coach him up” comment…my bad.  If you noticed, many of my statements were from the article I posted.  I wasn’t trying to sell anything.  I was simply replying to an earlier post in a manner I thought was unique to this board…to support the idea around “what if” regarding Bagley instead of bashing the idea.  I thought it would be refreshing.

You may be right regarding player development histories. I’m not going to research it because it misses the point I was making.  What I will say is you chose to make a comment that wasn’t aligned with my statement.  I never said a good defender…I said average defender.  I’m not sure how you distinguish the two but based on your examples, I have an idea.

As to your “turned his career around” comment, again you chose to go to an extreme to try to make a point.  My statement was needing to be average on defense.  IMO, he already has utility on offense, it’s BAD defense keeping him off the court.  Would you not agree that if he were just average, he would have significantly more value.  Is average unachievable for a 23 year old based on his background?

Regarding your comment that Bagley was the issue at Duke, this is what the article had to say:

      There were a lot of bad defenders on Duke’s team, and they were all freshman—Trevon 
      Duval, Gary Trent Jr., Wendell Carter Jr., Bagley

Is that true.  I don’t know, but it was what I was referring to.  I’m not looking it up because again it misses the point.  However, I know that the author also included a statement from a Duke staff member stating the team had issues.  I guess it’s possible that he was referring only to Bagley.

As far as development and the dreaded CU phrase, this was the section from the article that got me wondering:

   Bagley himself only played 3 years of high school ball and was allowed to do whatever he 
   wanted at every level.  His AAU program was run by his father and he never participated 
   in any USA basketball events.  Has he ever truly been coached defensively?

Is that true?  Again, I don’t know and felt no need to do a deep dive, it’s not that important to me.  I did however think based on what was presented that it was a really interesting question.

My point was simple.  Could it be that the issues with Bagley’s defense stem from a lack of history and focus at that end of the court?  There is nothing from Bagley’s makeup that would suggest that he should be bad.  He has the feet, the athleticism, the temperament, etc., yet he is bad.

I never suggested the Mav’s should get him, nor did I suggest a trade for Hardaway.  I actually said based on recent history, the Mav’s might not be the best team to teach defense.  What I did suggest is that there may be something there worth taking a chance on at the right price.  In my opinion, Bagley with AVERAGE defense would actually have value at PF.

(08-04-2023, 07:58 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: I would be surprised if the Mavs would go after a player like Bagley.  He is not the type of player they were targeting this summer.   I was wondering if he potentially is a really buy low type of player who in two years he has really turned into something.  Maybe not.  Maybe in 2 years he is begging for a job from an nba team.

There is no doubt Hardaway is the better player.  Hardaway is a really solid player.   Good even.   My issue if he is on the roster this year, he is going to get minutes over Hardy.   He will also probably finish several games over Green.   Hardaway is better than Hardy now.   He is also probably better than Green.   So maybe he should play over both of them.  But it appears the Mavs made moves this summer not thinking Hardaway is in their plans.    While he is better than both, there is an argument the better long term strategy would be to throw both in the deep end and see if they can swim.   That may not be the right move, but I expect Hardaway plays a good amount of time if he is on the roster this year.

If traded, what is the market for Hardaway?  I don’t think he gets Capela without draft picks.  Same for Bojan.   Next offseason, he would be an attractive expiring but not sure what type of offers he brings.   So would you move him for a high upside type player who hasn’t really shown much yet?   Not sure if I would, but I was just interested in looking at guys who could pop over the next few years who are potentially available for a low cost.

(08-04-2023, 08:57 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: Debatable, but probably isn't.


NO, he isn't.
Green was at worst, the 3rd best player on the Mavs pre-Kyrie trade.
The 2nd best player that time wasn't THJ.

(08-04-2023, 09:35 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: The problem isn’t even his defense, imho. The problem is that like 78% of these guys (a number straight from my rear end) come into the NBA thinking they’re going to be featured offensive players. And, almost all of them are ALMOOOOOST good enough to justify that expectation. But only the top 1% are good enough to be featured on a team and WIN GAMES. The rest either figure out they need to learn how to rebound/defend/space the floor or all of the above and have nice careers or bitch and whine about not getting treated fairly by coaches and lose their spot in the league. 

For Bagley to learn how to be a passable enough defender to stay on the floor, he’d first have to overcome being offended by not being given a starring role just based off of who he is and being the 2nd pick.

(08-04-2023, 10:27 PM)surfpuckmd Wrote: THJ is a better player currently than Jaden Hardy because he is much better defensively.  

Hardy has the potential to be better as he is a much more dynamic offensive player. 

Fortunately, we have space in the rotation for both players and there is no reason to trade THJ unless it is for a clear upgrade at center.

(08-04-2023, 10:57 PM)Dundalis Wrote: Neither are very good defenders. The gap is certainly not "much better". And Hardy will get better, THJ is what he is.

(08-04-2023, 03:14 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: In light of the AD and Brown extensions, I really don´t understand why the Hornets keep f****** around with PJ Washington. With the new CBA and the cap development, 18M/year will be barely above the MLE in 2-3 years. Also it´s Charlotte. That´s truly a place with even worse FA drawing power than Dallas. If the Hornets want to acquire one of these super max stars, a contract like Washington to match will be valuable.

(08-04-2023, 11:20 PM)surfpuckmd Wrote: Charlotte is a very poorly run franchise.  That's the explanation.

(08-04-2023, 07:39 PM)RDB Wrote: Before I make my point again, I want to apologize for triggering you with my “coach him up” comment…my bad.  If you noticed, many of my statements were from the article I posted.  I wasn’t trying to sell anything.  I was simply replying to an earlier post in a manner I thought was unique to this board…to support the idea around “what if” regarding Bagley instead of bashing the idea.  I thought it would be refreshing.

You may be right regarding player development histories. I’m not going to research it because it misses the point I was making.  What I will say is you chose to make a comment that wasn’t aligned with my statement.  I never said a good defender…I said average defender.  I’m not sure how you distinguish the two but based on your examples, I have an idea.

As to your “turned his career around” comment, again you chose to go to an extreme to try to make a point.  My statement was needing to be average on defense.  IMO, he already has utility on offense, it’s BAD defense keeping him off the court.  Would you not agree that if he were just average, he would have significantly more value.  Is average unachievable for a 23 year old based on his background?

Regarding your comment that Bagley was the issue at Duke, this is what the article had to say:

      There were a lot of bad defenders on Duke’s team, and they were all freshman—Trevon 
      Duval, Gary Trent Jr., Wendell Carter Jr., Bagley

Is that true.  I don’t know, but it was what I was referring to.  I’m not looking it up because again it misses the point.  However, I know that the author also included a statement from a Duke staff member stating the team had issues.  I guess it’s possible that he was referring only to Bagley.

As far as development and the dreaded CU phrase, this was the section from the article that got me wondering:

   Bagley himself only played 3 years of high school ball and was allowed to do whatever he 
   wanted at every level.  His AAU program was run by his father and he never participated 
   in any USA basketball events.  Has he ever truly been coached defensively?

Is that true?  Again, I don’t know and felt no need to do a deep dive, it’s not that important to me.  I did however think based on what was presented that it was a really interesting question.

My point was simple.  Could it be that the issues with Bagley’s defense stem from a lack of history and focus at that end of the court?  There is nothing from Bagley’s makeup that would suggest that he should be bad.  He has the feet, the athleticism, the temperament, etc., yet he is bad.

I never suggested the Mav’s should get him, nor did I suggest a trade for Hardaway.  I actually said based on recent history, the Mav’s might not be the best team to teach defense.  What I did suggest is that there may be something there worth taking a chance on at the right price.  In my opinion, Bagley with AVERAGE defense would actually have value at PF.

(08-04-2023, 07:51 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: I wonder if a team gives him a chance?  I believe due to a new role, he is eligible for a two way.

https://twitter.com/swishcultures_/status/1687088636972388353?s=61&t=-aAylloVlVRI2-DRvoajoA

(08-04-2023, 07:39 PM)RDB Wrote: Before I make my point again, I want to apologize for triggering you with my “coach him up” comment…my bad.  If you noticed, many of my statements were from the article I posted.  I wasn’t trying to sell anything.  I was simply replying to an earlier post in a manner I thought was unique to this board…to support the idea around “what if” regarding Bagley instead of bashing the idea.  I thought it would be refreshing.

You may be right regarding player development histories. I’m not going to research it because it misses the point I was making.  What I will say is you chose to make a comment that wasn’t aligned with my statement.  I never said a good defender…I said average defender.  I’m not sure how you distinguish the two but based on your examples, I have an idea.

As to your “turned his career around” comment, again you chose to go to an extreme to try to make a point.  My statement was needing to be average on defense.  IMO, he already has utility on offense, it’s BAD defense keeping him off the court.  Would you not agree that if he were just average, he would have significantly more value.  Is average unachievable for a 23 year old based on his background?

Regarding your comment that Bagley was the issue at Duke, this is what the article had to say:

      There were a lot of bad defenders on Duke’s team, and they were all freshman—Trevon 
      Duval, Gary Trent Jr., Wendell Carter Jr., Bagley

Is that true.  I don’t know, but it was what I was referring to.  I’m not looking it up because again it misses the point.  However, I know that the author also included a statement from a Duke staff member stating the team had issues.  I guess it’s possible that he was referring only to Bagley.

As far as development and the dreaded CU phrase, this was the section from the article that got me wondering:

   Bagley himself only played 3 years of high school ball and was allowed to do whatever he 
   wanted at every level.  His AAU program was run by his father and he never participated 
   in any USA basketball events.  Has he ever truly been coached defensively?

Is that true?  Again, I don’t know and felt no need to do a deep dive, it’s not that important to me.  I did however think based on what was presented that it was a really interesting question.

My point was simple.  Could it be that the issues with Bagley’s defense stem from a lack of history and focus at that end of the court?  There is nothing from Bagley’s makeup that would suggest that he should be bad.  He has the feet, the athleticism, the temperament, etc., yet he is bad.

I never suggested the Mav’s should get him, nor did I suggest a trade for Hardaway.  I actually said based on recent history, the Mav’s might not be the best team to teach defense.  What I did suggest is that there may be something there worth taking a chance on at the right price.  In my opinion, Bagley with AVERAGE defense would actually have value at PF.

(08-05-2023, 09:43 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: Looks like he is getting some traction

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/1687639788365504512?s=20

(08-05-2023, 04:47 AM)Mapka Wrote: Or maybe PJ Washington has the same problem as Wood and everybody knows it.