(08-02-2023, 02:24 PM)mvossman Wrote: I think you are ignoring all evidence if you think Wood's only issue is Kidd.  That would not explain why we could not get any value for him at trade deadline, or why nobody has offered him a contract.

There are plenty of players that take big dips in their late 20's and then turn it around completely, especially with a change in scenery.  Its not just the youth curve.  There is other stuff too.

(08-02-2023, 02:28 PM)mvossman Wrote: I feel just the opposite.  Wings are far more important that a bench scoring big that can't play defense, especially for a team that is already way better offensively than defensively.

(08-02-2023, 02:59 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: Never did I say Kidd is 100% responsible; I stated that that problems with Wood were between him and the coaching staff, not teammates.  All reports of Wood problems in DAL, HOU, and DET show this (including taking up for a teammate against a coach in HOU).  I've seen no evidence the Mavs shopped Wood at the TDL and have already explained the current situation.  Still a lot time between now and camp for deals to go thru.

KP is very different.  He didn't want to play with Luka bc he'd have to be Robin to Luka's Batman.  There are tons of examples of this, which I already gave including HOFrs.  It's a shame because we'd be a much better place with KP had he accepted his role.

What examples do you have of players taking "big dips in their late 20's and then turn it around completely"?  I gave the examples of D.Rose and G.Hill, but their worth was reassessed.  Other than catastrophic injury recovery like D.Rose, G.Hill, and S.Livingston going from star to valued role player, I'm at a loss to what you're referring to.  What are the odds of players like J.Collins and Capela become what they were?  We had people on this board enamored with whom J.Collins WAS, not IS.

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Strawman alert...  I was unaware THJ is a DPOY candidate.  We're talking about scoring vs scoring.

(08-02-2023, 04:06 PM)mvossman Wrote: There was a ton of smoke regarding them trying to move Wood at the deadline, but I'm done arguing about him.  As a point of clarification, when a player can't get along with any of his coaches, I consider that a locker room problem, but I have no interest in getting into that semantical argument.

I don't have a ton of time to spend on digging up all they players that had dips in their late 20s and turned it around.  A few of many examples:

DeRozan looked on the decline in his late 20s/early 30s at SA and then had maybe his best season ever in Chicago at 32.
Conley looked cooked at 32 in his first year at Utah, and then had a huge bounce back your
Horford looked on the decline at Philly and OKC in his early 30s, and then went back to Boston for a big rebound at 35

I'm sure there are plenty others.

You like to call out strawmen that are not there.  Timmy is not a DOP candidate but he is actually decent.  Bagley is basically Powell defensively without the BBIQ.  The only thing he has going for him is youth, but a poor defensive center that can't shoot just does not fit today's NBA.

(08-02-2023, 01:31 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: . . .  I sort of thought he would be a Julius Randle level player.  It hasn't worked out and he hasn't been good when I have seen him play.  He is still only 24. 

One of the things on the Mavs that I am worried about is a big guy who can get easy baskets for himself. . . .

(08-02-2023, 09:14 PM)The Jom Wrote: A big capable of getting easy buckets like Randle? I give you Luka Doncic. Only an inch shy of JR and his baskets come much easier.

(08-02-2023, 01:44 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: If you have known any professional athletes

(08-03-2023, 10:33 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: You been hanging around a bunch of NBA locker rooms lately or something?

(08-03-2023, 09:51 AM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: Yes and no.  If Luka plays more off the ball, yes.  I hope to gawd that's one of Luka's tasks is with Kyrie on board long term he develops a game not so dependent on having the ball in his hands.  But your point is well taken.  Luka's dynamic game makes our needs less stringent.  He's basically a point SF/PF.

I think the discussion around Bagley is more of a scoring big coming off the bench.  With Wood's walking away, we don't have that.  My entire point is that I'd rather have Wood as my 6th man than THJ.  M.Harrell was SMOTY.  You can't convince me he's a better defender than Wood.

(08-03-2023, 12:25 PM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: Harrell was a monster when he won 6MOTY. He might not be an excellent at-the-rim defender, but his sheer motor,  hustle, and determination made up for it, and won him the award. Wood does not play with the same energy and fire and actually is lazy on that end IMHO. It's a big reason he's still a FA.

(08-02-2023, 01:31 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: So a player I have been way off so far in the draft a few years ago, who also hasn't been a very good NBA player yet is Marvin Bagley.  I never thought he would be a good defender, but I thought he would score and rebound right away and be a guy who put up 20 and 10 year in, year out.  I sort of thought he would be a Julius Randle level player.  It hasn't worked out and he hasn't been good when I have seen him play.  He is still only 24. 

One of the things on the Mavs that I am worried about is a big guy who can get easy baskets for himself.  So how about a gamble on Bagley.  Hardaway for Bagley.  Mavs clear up their guard depth and Detroit removes a big from all their young depth. 

Bagley is your scoring big off the bench.  Paired with Maxi or Grant when one of Luka or Kyrie is resting.  I am guessing most are going to say no, but I do wonder if Bagley ever figures it out, or is this who he is.

(08-03-2023, 02:23 PM)RDB Wrote: Lot’s of people missed on Bagley…no shame there.  All of the negatives he has shown in the NBA we’re highlighted before the draft.  What’s interesting is that he hasn’t seemed to improve in any of those areas.

Here is a pre draft article I read some time back.  I don’t know anything about the writer other than he seems to have nailed the worst case scenario of how his deficiencies might manifest in the NBA.  FWIW, he also missed on his Bagley/NBA success projection.

https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/nba-draft-prospect-profile-marvin-bagley

There is a part of me that wonders if Bagley can still be developed.  He has value on the offensive end now, it’s the defense that is the big issue.  When you consider how he was developed in his younger years, including his fathers role, coupled with going to a Duke team that had to play zone due to poor team defense, and then being stuck on crappy Sac. & Det teams, I wonder, as the writer suggests, if he never learned good defense.  

If you could just make him an average or slightly above defender, I think he could be a solid 4 and situational 5.  I’m not sure the Mav’s are best prepared for that based on recent history but unless it’s an issue between the ears, he has the tools.  I don’t see why his weaknesses can’t be coached up with heavy repetition and some specialized attention if in fact his deficiencies are heavily influenced by his poor early development.

(08-03-2023, 02:27 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Might be the same things that were taught to him since being in the NBA too, even in the exact same way. Sometimes people aren’t ready to learn what is being taught.

(08-03-2023, 10:42 PM)RDB Wrote: It could be…the NBA is also probably not the best place to learn fundamentals and with only 3 years of high school ball and Duke playing zone only, it’s understandable why defense might be his biggest draft question mark.  

With his age and athleticism, you would think there is untapped upside with some special attention and he should be motivated.  Offense made him the #2 pick and defense is going to keep him primarily as an NBA backup.  It feels like he needs to go somewhere where he can develop without the expectations of immediate results, assuming he can swallow his pride.

(08-03-2023, 10:42 PM)RDB Wrote: It could be…the NBA is also probably not the best place to learn fundamentals and with only 3 years of high school ball and Duke playing zone only, it’s understandable why defense might be his biggest draft question mark.  

With his age and athleticism, you would think there is untapped upside with some special attention and he should be motivated.  Offense made him the #2 pick and defense is going to keep him primarily as an NBA backup.  It feels like he needs to go somewhere where he can develop without the expectations of immediate results, assuming he can swallow his pride.

(08-04-2023, 09:46 AM)mvossman Wrote: If I recall, one of the biggest reasons Duke played zone was because Bagley was so bad at defense.  I can't count how many times I have read something like, "just coach him up on defense and with his athleticism he should be good" but it rarely plays out that way.  I can think of a few wings that have turned there career around with defense (Wiggins, DSJ) but I can't think of an offense only big who came into the league and turned his career around with defense.

(08-04-2023, 10:28 AM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: It seems rebounding and 3pt shot are the only things that can be completely developed in the NBA.  I can't think of anything else, except with the rare exceptions like you noted. 

DSJ was mentioned; he would be an ideal 3rd ballhandler.

(08-04-2023, 10:36 AM)mvossman Wrote: Agree on DSJ, but I wonder if he burned that bridge when he bailed on us for several days (can't remember how long it was).

(08-02-2023, 01:31 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: So a player I have been way off so far in the draft a few years ago, who also hasn't been a very good NBA player yet is Marvin Bagley.  I never thought he would be a good defender, but I thought he would score and rebound right away and be a guy who put up 20 and 10 year in, year out.  I sort of thought he would be a Julius Randle level player.  It hasn't worked out and he hasn't been good when I have seen him play.  He is still only 24. 

One of the things on the Mavs that I am worried about is a big guy who can get easy baskets for himself.  So how about a gamble on Bagley.  Hardaway for Bagley.  Mavs clear up their guard depth and Detroit removes a big from all their young depth. 

Bagley is your scoring big off the bench.  Paired with Maxi or Grant when one of Luka or Kyrie is resting.  I am guessing most are going to say no, but I do wonder if Bagley ever figures it out, or is this who he is.