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+--- Thread: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms (/showthread.php?tid=2444)
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RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - cow - 03-24-2023
(03-24-2023, 06:26 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: In what regards is Grant a better a fit than Kuzma? Scoring? No. Rebounding? No. Defense? No.
He's probably a better dresser than Kuzma.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - Ghost of Podkolzin - 03-24-2023
(03-24-2023, 06:38 PM)cow Wrote: He's probably a better dresser than Kuzma.
The homeless are better dressers.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - omahen - 03-29-2023
(1) NBACentral on Twitter: "Bill Simmons predicts Draymond Green will end up in Dallas to team up with Kyrie Irving, Luka Doncic and LeBron James “I think he ends up in Dallas with Kyrie and with Luka, and the LeBron tries to figure out a way to get there eventually. Yea, that’s my prediction.” (Via The… https://t.co/mI8XlQKfN8" / Twitter
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - chaparral - 03-29-2023
(03-29-2023, 09:34 PM)omahen Wrote: (1) NBACentral on Twitter: "Bill Simmons predicts Draymond Green will end up in Dallas to team up with Kyrie Irving, Luka Doncic and LeBron James “I think he ends up in Dallas with Kyrie and with Luka, and the LeBron tries to figure out a way to get there eventually. Yea, that’s my prediction.” (Via The… https://t.co/mI8XlQKfN8" / Twitter
Simmons needs to tell us how this is possible. Not that I want it to happen...
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - omahen - 03-30-2023
(03-29-2023, 09:37 PM)chaparral Wrote: Simmons needs to tell us how this is possible. Not that I want it to happen...
Why wouldn't be possible? Everything is possible. LeBron is certainly most influential figure in the league. Draymond has a PO in the summer and GSW has the risk of losing him for nothing. Its questionable if they even want to resign him to another contract. They might want to keep him for another year, though. But they might also do him good and trade him to where he wants to go. Their best scenario if they part ways is that he picks his option and they trade him for compensation. LeBron has the contract for next season but he has PO after that, so again he has some leverage as he might threaten to leave unless they trade him to his desired location.
There are two aspects to that: matching salaries and assets for GSW/LAL. From the salary perspective, the combined LeBron and Green salaries are roughly 80 million, which means Mavs need to send out at least 60 million of salaries. Hardaway, Bertans, McGee, Bullock and Maxi alone covers that. You could also play with Wood or Powell SnT. High salaries allow many possible ways where Dallas salaries go. In theory, Mavs could send all the required salaries to Lakers and none to GSW.
From the needed assets perspective it is more difficult to estimate. Mavs have two picks to play with, they could also add Green+Hardy. I would say a protected FRP is a realistic compensation for their troubles in case of Green, due to the leverage he has. LeBrons value is really difficult to asses to me.
Based on this, one possible example:
LAL: Bertans, THJ, Bullock, Maxi, McGee, Green, unprotected Mavs FRP, GSW protected FRP (they get some playable players and two picks for an aging star on expiring contract)
GSW: unprotected Mavs FRP (they hugely reduce their tax bill and get a good pick)
Dal: LeBron, Green
Mavs can still resign Wood and Powell to cover the center position. rMLE and vet minimums to cover the rest of holes.
Irving, Hardy
Luka, rMLE or vet min
LeBron, rMLE or vet min
Green, rMLE or vet min
Powell, Wood
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - HoosierDaddyKid - 03-30-2023
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/36000367/mavs-kyrie-irving-says-fighting-play-not-expected
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - JamesConway912 - 03-30-2023
They need to stop
messing around and commit to keeping the top 10 pick. The season is lost anyway, damaging our chances for next year by gifting NY a #11/12/13 pick would be terrible even for their low front office standards.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - dirkfansince1998 - 03-30-2023
The mentioned Draymond rumor is exactly what I would expect them to do if they end up with a lottery pick. Trade the pick and add a player in his mid 30s.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - F Gump - 03-30-2023
(03-30-2023, 04:14 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: The mentioned Draymond rumor is exactly what I would expect them to do if they end up with a lottery pick. Trade the pick and add a player in his mid 30s.
Which of these (if any) change your level of interest (and if so, which)?
A) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG
B) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st
C) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st + 2027 2nd
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - ItsGoTime - 03-30-2023
(03-30-2023, 04:50 PM)F Gump Wrote: Which of these (if any) change your level of interest (and if so, which)?If we’re talking the #10 pick I think B is acceptable. If we get one of top 4, none make sense.
A) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG
B) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st
C) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st + 2027 2nd
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - cow - 03-30-2023
(03-30-2023, 04:50 PM)F Gump Wrote: Which of these (if any) change your level of interest (and if so, which)?
A) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG
B) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st
C) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st + 2027 2nd
Love me some Draymond but he will be 33 next season and the reason he and GSW might break up is over his desire to get a max contract. That desire isn't going to go away if he joins the Mavericks. I wouldn't pay him a max contract, I'm not even sure if he's worth $27.5M to GSW next season much less another team. I wouldn't spend a first found pick on him, even if you are dumping some undesirables. You could probably talk me into using Josh as the asset going out but we are right back to him wanting a contract that would probably pay him 2x of what he is worth.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - dirkfansince1998 - 03-30-2023
(03-30-2023, 04:50 PM)F Gump Wrote: Which of these (if any) change your level of interest (and if so, which)?
A) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG
B) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st
C) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st + 2027 2nd
Trading for someone like Draymond only makes sense if it goes along with a) positive value added in addition or b) if it puts the Mavs over the top.
If the Mavs consider something like this they are feeling a lot better about their chances than I am. I don´t think adding Draymond turns the Mavs into a contender. Not sold on the fit and/or his ability to produce outside of GSs system.
@"cow" already mentioned the contract situation. Meaning that the Mavs would either be happy with a short term rental or willing to invest big time money into an undersized big on the wrong side of 30. Don´t like either scenario.
I think your proposals hit close to the kind of deal the current MBT would make without thinking twice. Short term improvement. Long term flexibility. Or as I would put it. Only thinking in one year windows. Without any concept when it comes to longterm roster building.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - F Gump - 03-30-2023
(03-30-2023, 04:58 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: > Which of these (if any) change your level of interest (and if so, which)?
A) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG
B) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st
C) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st + 2027 2nd
____
If we’re talking the #10 pick, I think B is acceptable. If we get one of top 4, none make sense.
Yes that assumes Mavs will pick at 10-ish (ie, don't get drawn into top 4).
As "expensive" as that seems for Green, it does keep Mavs with a pick. Right now, it would have Mavs moving down from 10 to 18, and in exchange Mavs get to swap DB/JM for DG (one year remaining).
I don't know if Mavs would have any interest, or if DG would be the right target, but getting some help right away for the short term, while also getting a pick to draft and develop for later, seems like the sort of thing they should want to do. If they have the asset of value, of course.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - omahen - 03-31-2023
(03-30-2023, 04:50 PM)F Gump Wrote: Which of these (if any) change your level of interest (and if so, which)?
A) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG
B) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st
C) Bertans + McGee + 2023 1st for DG + 2023 1st + 2027 2nd
I think the Green question has several layers and can't be looked from Mavs perspective only.
I think Green wants another big contract and from his perspective it is certainly more likely to get one this summer than the summer after. So, he will be looking for a team that is willing to sign him long term, either as a FA or as a trade with his PO taken and then extended. My assumption is that this summer there will be market for him on a longer deal, bigger possibility for him than waiting one more year. Of course, if I am wrong and there is no one willing to offer him a multiyear deal now, that changes a lot. But for the moment, I will stay with the assumption that there is a market for him at 20+ per year on a multiyear deal. We also need to assume GSW and Green are done in a sense that GSW is not that team willing to give him one more contract. Because if they are, he will stay there. But if they are not, I think it is very likely he gets moved this summer and that GSW and his representation will work together to find a best option for everyone involved.
From Mavs perspective, they desperately need a defensive general and obviously the PF position is their biggest need. Going forward with Luka and Irving they need to have plus defenders on the remaining spots and none of the current players is really that. Bullock has been mostly bad, Maxi can offer some excellent games but is injured a lot and rehabing most of the remaining time. The center spot is below average. While Green is not a shooter, he is excellent as a short roll. And this is a scheme they mostly play recently when Luka is doubled. They just don't have a capable guy running to a short roll spot and then either finish or pass. Wood is best, but we all know he has his problems on the defensive side. So, I can see a world where green works on offense despite his limited shooting. We can probably discuss endlessly if that is true or not, but for this purpose I would just assume Mavs see how it would work and want him and are prepared to give him what he wants (long term deal).
This leaves the GSW compensation part. As I already wrote a couple of days ago, I think a fair compensation is a lottery protected pick. Mavs don't really have that, they have either an unprotected pick in 2024 or (assuming) a number 10 pick in this year draft. This would mean a protected pick (or non lottery pick in 2023) would need to come back from GSW. The problem I see in all your proposals are the bad contracts of Bertans and McGee. GSW is hugely in tax and I don't think they would have any interest in replacing Green with 20+ mil of dead value, which means a huge tax bill for them. That alone probably doesn't cover the difference between the number 10 and number 18 pick. They are still wanting to compete now. I believe they would want either a big tax reduction (third team needs to be involved) or a usefull player. I would be more convinced if THJ was there instead of Bertans, assuming GSW sees any use for him. He would be a much more expensive replacement for DiVincenzo.
Assuming Mavs see Green as feasible long term option, the price is more likely the unprotected pick or the number 10 pick in 2023 without getting anything back. Either with GSW taking McGee and Bertans or (more likely) involving a third team with part of draft compensation going there. Personally, I think Green can help on a short term, but has huge risks on the long term. However, Mavs seem to like to gamble so I could easily see them as the ones taking that risk. With Kyrie in, Mavs don't really have other option but go all in.
Irving and Green are influential behind the curtains players, something Luka is not since he was not growing up in US. Stars like to play with other stars and Green is still considered as a star (despite my opinion, that he has been on a decline for some time now). From this perspective, I could see the behind the curtains actions pulling the strings to join Irving, Green and Luka. There is obviously also a mutual respect between Luka and Green. So, I think the Green to Dallas is something to look at closely and I am affraid the compensation would be even higher than option A you presented.
Coming to my opinion. Mavs did decide for Irving. Something, I would probably not do as I have my doubts about him. Both in terms of long term risks due to his previous actions as well as his on court fit with Luka. But, there is a behind the curtains factor he brings along which is impossible for us to assess. Lets not forget, he was the one who convinced Durant to go to BKN. It is totally possible that this influence is greatly reduced due to his BKN episode and Mavs failed in that assessment. That would be just the typical Mavs. But I would like to stay positive. Because if they misjudged Irving, the team is done and Luka will go to another team, imho. In any case, the only option looking forward is with Irving. Green is bringing similar risks as Irving regarding his long term impact. But if you go all in, you go all in, no middle ground here. You can't have Irving and build slowly around him, even if everything else goes well, he is not young anymore. From this perspective I could take a gamble with Green and hope for a title in two years. Basically, one pick for Green, the other pick for another quality starter that is above average defender while hopefully using only Bullock, Maxi, Bertans, THJ and McGee contracts (in any combination) as salary compensation for the two players. Bring in a quality addition with rMLE and a couple of decent vet min guys and hope for the best. I think trading both picks for two quality starters is the only option Mavs have at this point.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - omahen - 03-31-2023
On a positive note, the Mavs are geniuses working behind the curtains on a grand plan that will come to realization in the summer. A child could see the hole at PF and it is really difficult to think Mavs couldn't see that. So, it is possible there is something in plan that couldn't be done at TDL (like Green), but can be done in the summer so Mavs had to save the assets at TDL. They don't need the 2023 pick to execute it, as they are obviously not tanking.
On a negative note, Mavs have no idea what they are doing and they just jumped in panic after the only possible option (Irving) at TDL with no plan going forward, remaining in a delusion that this team can compete. This delusion includes trying to compete till the very end without even thinking about the tank possibility and long term outlook.
On a realistic note, Mavs think they are geniuses working behind the curtains on a grand plan, but will only be used by others for an even bigger plan Mavs don't see. The result will be, that Mavs will (try) to sell their fallback option Z (see spins from DeAndre to Zaza in 2015 and from Kemba to Wright as a reference) to fans as some great plan, which will be proven totally unsuccessful in half a season (if not already in the summer with Irving walking), effectively ending the Nico/Kidd and likely Luka era with Mavs.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - HoosierDaddyKid - 03-31-2023
I don't care what anyone says. This was a desperation move trading for Kyrie while gutting a roster that was already flawed before it happened. They got lucky last year, they exposed Phoenix's weaknesses and everything clicked and they made the WCF before losing to an experienced GS team. It all changed when they let Brunson walk, and they didn't improve the team defensively along the fringes. Now they are worse off than before the trade, and Cuban is going to have to empty the coffers to pay Kyrie just to save face. And as unpredictable as Kyrie is, if he doesn't like what Cuban offers, he can still walk. He's already leaving himself a way out by saying this isn't what he expected when he came here in his presser after the Philly loss. This won't be an easy fix anytime soon.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - ballsrchr - 03-31-2023
(03-31-2023, 03:41 AM)omahen Wrote: On a positive note, the Mavs are geniuses working behind the curtains on a grand plan that will come to realization in the summer. A child could see the hole at PF and it is really difficult to think Mavs couldn't see that. So, it is possible there is something in plan that couldn't be done at TDL (like Green), but can be done in the summer so Mavs had to save the assets at TDL. They don't need the 2023 pick to execute it, as they are obviously not tanking.
On a negative note, Mavs have no idea what they are doing and they just jumped in panic after the only possible option (Irving) at TDL with no plan going forward, remaining in a delusion that this team can compete. This delusion includes trying to compete till the very end without even thinking about the tank possibility and long term outlook.
On a realistic note, Mavs think they are geniuses working behind the curtains on a grand plan, but will only be used by others for an even bigger plan Mavs don't see. The result will be, that Mavs will (try) to sell their fallback option Z (see spins from DeAndre to Zaza in 2015 and from Kemba to Wright as a reference) to fans as some great plan, which will be proven totally unsuccessful in half a season (if not already in the summer with Irving walking), effectively ending the Nico/Kidd and likely Luka era with Mavs.
You make some great points. I think your third paragraph sums it up. And I'm an optimistic homer!
(03-31-2023, 08:30 AM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: I don't care what anyone says. This was a desperation move trading for Kyrie while gutting a roster that was already flawed before it happened. They got lucky last year, they exposed Phoenix's weaknesses and everything clicked and they made the WCF before losing to an experienced GS team. It all changed when they let Brunson walk, and they didn't improve the team defensively along the fringes. Now they are worse off than before the trade, and Cuban is going to have to empty the coffers to pay Kyrie just to save face. And as unpredictable as Kyrie is, if he doesn't like what Cuban offers, he can still walk. He's already leaving himself a way out by saying this isn't what he expected when he came here in his presser after the Philly loss. This won't be an easy fix anytime soon.
Can't argue with anything you say. I'm beginning to think that Kyrie is getting frustrated--and will not stay at any price. There are greener pastures on this flat earth!
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - cow - 03-31-2023
We better figure out a way to get assets out of Kyrie via a SNT if we aren't keeping him.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - ballsrchr - 03-31-2023
(03-31-2023, 02:57 AM)omahen Wrote: Coming to my opinion. Mavs did decide for Irving. Something, I would probably not do as I have my doubts about him. Both in terms of long term risks due to his previous actions as well as his on court fit with Luka. But, there is a behind the curtains factor he brings along which is impossible for us to assess. Lets not forget, he was the one who convinced Durant to go to BKN. It is totally possible that this influence is greatly reduced due to his BKN episode and Mavs failed in that assessment. That would be just the typical Mavs. But I would like to stay positive. Because if they misjudged Irving, the team is done and Luka will go to another team, imho. In any case, the only option looking forward is with Irving. Green is bringing similar risks as Irving regarding his long term impact. But if you go all in, you go all in, no middle ground here. You can't have Irving and build slowly around him, even if everything else goes well, he is not young anymore. From this perspective I could take a gamble with Green and hope for a title in two years. Basically, one pick for Green, the other pick for another quality starter that is above average defender while hopefully using only Bullock, Maxi, Bertans, THJ and McGee contracts (in any combination) as salary compensation for the two players. Bring in a quality addition with rMLE and a couple of decent vet min guys and hope for the best. I think trading both picks for two quality starters is the only option Mavs have at this point.
I was flip flopping on the things you said, but your "opinion" considerably narrowed the focus. IF, and that's a big IF, the Mavs can convince Kyrie to stay--and bring in Green--then the team would be--better. They would be in "win now" mode. But they would still be missing a stud offensive/defensive guy. Playing defense is much harder than offense.
Another factor is how all these guys fit in the "team". How they play together? The 2011 team is a good example. Those guys meshed very well with Dirk. I think Kyrie is willing to let Luka show the way...and will only take over when he gets frustrated and/or needs to. Kyrie is a much better player than I thought he was, though I'm still leary of some of his life stances and past behind the scenes actions. Luka probably has the best years of his career ahead of him.
Anyway...as to your opinion--I don't think we have any other options either.
RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: TDL past, time to look forward! - ballsrchr - 03-31-2023
(03-31-2023, 10:31 AM)cow Wrote: We better figure out a way to get assets out of Kyrie via a SNT if we aren't keeping him.
The Mavs management in this area does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. To quote a player who I'm too lazy to look up, "...traded me for a bag of chips!" Need I mention Brunson?
Anyway...we can hope. And I do...