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RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - fifteenth - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 10:00 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I think the no agreement is indicative of how many needs we actually have.
I think the lack of agreement in what we need is due to the forum's lack of agreement on what constitutes winning basketball, and disagreement on which Mavs are actually sub-par pieces.
Scott is going to trade Powell not matter what. Fuerza is going to trade Seth. Lots of folks want to nail the "sell high" point for THJ. Dan wants a back-up big for depth. Lots of people want rebounding. I'd love for that fairy tale "guy who can guard Kawhi and hit 3s" to be a real person.
But those opinions don't necessarily correspond to reality. Reality is difficult to determine with this team I think. Does Powell represent an obvious need for an upgrade? Is Seth a one dimensional injury waiting to happen that take too many minutes from Brunson? Do we actually have a rebounding problem? Is a 3&D wing who can guard Kahwi gettable without major roster upheaval?
It's not that we have a roster riddled with holes. It really is that we're all over the place regarding the particulars of what the needs even are and what the team really needs.
(12-18-2019, 10:25 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: like the Porzingis trade, the Juwon Howard trade, the RLF/Van Exel trade, the Jamison trade, or the Josh Howard trade
Would you make a trade of this type, with that many moving parts, if it was available right now?
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - dirkfansince1998 - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 10:35 AM)fifteenth Wrote: Do we actually have a rebounding problem?
This comes up every single year and I cannot understand why. Mavs could lead the league in rebounding and the same posters would still make a case based on a single game or a single possession were the Mavs gave up offensive rebounds.
Little bit of topic but a short breakdown...
5th in overal REBR
13th in DRR
8th in ORR
Rebounding problems are fabricated.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - fifteenth - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 10:52 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: This comes up every single year and I cannot understand why. Mavs could lead the league in rebounding and the same posters would still make a case based on a single game or a single possession were the Mavs gave up offensive rebounds.
I think it's based on the girth, reputation and individual rebounding numbers of our individual players. Team rebounding is irrelevant in the mind of some.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - aguiar95 - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 10:14 AM)aguiar95 Wrote: Watched Holiday (6-3) yesterday vs the Nets. Offensively he was very bad and on defense he guarded Dinwiddie to some degree (gave up easy layups, defended very well the perimeter, looked gassed at the end).
What are your thoughts on Satoransky? He could become available as CHI is underperforming and have Dunn/Lavine/White/(Possibly their 1st rounder) at the backourt. Have lengh (6-7) and seems like a decent defender (1.5 steals) and a good shooter (36% 3-pt and 87% FT) and passer (5 assists).
I think he would be a godd replacement at the SG. He (5M non guaranteed in 2021) and OPJ (if he takes the PO) come off the books before the 2021 FA.
The trade I proposed is:
DAL: OPJ, Satoransky, Felicio.
CHI: THJ, Lee, Jackson, 2 2nd rounders.
Is this enough? Doncic/Sato/OPJ/KP/Powell/Wright/Curry/DFS/Kleber.
In 2020 we would be below the tax (assuming the cap is 118M and the tax is 143M, reported by Shams):
Take Brunson's TO, Porter takes his PO, we sign our 1st rounder: 14 Players
Porzingis (29,4M)
OPJ (28,5M)
Powell (11,1M)
Satoransky (10M)
Wright (9M)
Kleber (8,3M)
Doncic (8M)
Curry (7,8M)
Felicio (7,5M)
DFS (4M)
Boban (3,5M)
1st Rounder (2,1M)
Brunson (1,6M)
Roby (1,5M)
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - ClutchDirk - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 10:52 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote:Truth...(12-18-2019, 10:35 AM)fifteenth Wrote: Do we actually have a rebounding problem?
This comes up every single year and I cannot understand why. Mavs could lead the league in rebounding and the same posters would still make a case based on a single game or a single possession were the Mavs gave up offensive rebounds.
Little bit of topic but a short breakdown...
5th in overal REBR
13th in DRR
8th in ORR
Rebounding problems are fabricated.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - Scott41theMavs - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 10:56 AM)fifteenth Wrote:(12-18-2019, 10:52 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: This comes up every single year and I cannot understand why. Mavs could lead the league in rebounding and the same posters would still make a case based on a single game or a single possession were the Mavs gave up offensive rebounds.
I think it's based on the girth, reputation and individual rebounding numbers of our individual players. Team rebounding is irrelevant in the mind of some.
Yeah, it's not like our pencil-necked geeks have been outmuscled for key, end-of-game rebounds at the end of recent games or anything.
(12-18-2019, 10:35 AM)fifteenth Wrote: Scott is going to trade Powell not matter what.
He's overpriced. He's Brandan Wright with the shotblocking removed. And Brandan came off the bench. If you think Powell is the answer at starting center for a contending team, regardless of the other four players, then that's nuts.
I have two other responses to you, but I don't know how to quote selectively in this format.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - fifteenth - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 11:30 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Yeah, it's not like our pencil-necked geeks have been outmuscled for key, end-of-game rebounds at the end of recent games or anything.
So girth, nerdiness(?), and a couple of recent plays
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - dirkfansince1998 - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 11:30 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote:(12-18-2019, 10:56 AM)fifteenth Wrote:(12-18-2019, 10:52 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: This comes up every single year and I cannot understand why. Mavs could lead the league in rebounding and the same posters would still make a case based on a single game or a single possession were the Mavs gave up offensive rebounds.
I think it's based on the girth, reputation and individual rebounding numbers of our individual players. Team rebounding is irrelevant in the mind of some.
Yeah, it's not like our pencil-necked geeks have been outmuscled for key, end-of-game rebounds at the end of recent games or anything.
That´s exactly what I mean. We watch the game and remember the offensive rebound for the opponent in the 4th quarter. Meanwhile we forget the countless occasions where the Mavs outrebounded the opponent. Sneaky putbacks by DFS or tap outs by Maxi.
The Mavs don´t have a dominant individual rebounder and they don´t need one. 6 players are averaging more than 1 OREB per game. 2 players are averaging 9+ REBs. 4 additional ones average 5+.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - Scott41theMavs - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 10:35 AM)fifteenth Wrote: It's not that we have a roster riddled with holes. It really is that we're all over the place regarding the particulars of what the needs even are and what the team really needs.
Nah. IGT is correct. There are differences of opinion regarding priorities. Moreover, there's a difference between 1) wanting to contend, whether this year or in a year or two, and 2) wanting to dominate for years to come. Regardless, I don't regard it as a matter of serious basketball debate that at a naked minimum, at least two of our three non-All-Star starters need to be improved upon/replaced - THJ by being traded away, with a better guard acquired in some way, Powell by the acquisition of a real center (e.g. Adams) or similar but superior big (Favors) and his being traded or relegated to the bench, and DFS being relegated to the bench by the acquisition of a superior 3-and-D player.
I am open to the idea of the Mavs someday miraculously winning a championship in the Luka/KP era with DFS starting and playing starter minutes (25+, no DSteve-ing). THJ or Powell? No way.
(12-18-2019, 10:35 AM)fifteenth Wrote: Would you make a trade of this type, with that many moving parts, if it was available right now?
Of course...? Why not....? Am I missing something here?
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - HanspardsShowerVoice - 12-18-2019
There is still a lot of refusal to adapt to the modern 3 point shot dominated NBA where rebounds are dispersed all over the floor and away from the basket. It's not a "real" rebound unless it happens within 2 feet of the rim. It doesn't matter that the Mavs dominated the Pistons in rebounding in their matchup, the Pistons had Andre Drummond doing it the way Charles Oakley did it.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - fifteenth - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 11:46 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Nah.
Nah Nah Nah. Nah, Nah Nah Nah...
(12-18-2019, 11:46 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: wanting to contend, whether this year or in a year or two, and 2) wanting to dominate for years to come.
I don't think that defines the differences. Who doesn't want to dominate for years to come? There are differences of opinion in how to proceed towards domination.
(12-18-2019, 11:46 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: I don't regard it as a matter of serious basketball debate that at a naked minimum, at least two of our three non-All-Star starters need to be improved upon/replaced
I think your assertion is debatable. It doesn't hurt my feelings if you think my opinions are outside the realm of serious basketball debate.
(12-18-2019, 11:46 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Powell by the acquisition of a real center (e.g. Adams) or similar but superior big (Favors) and his being traded or relegated to the bench
not all reasonable persons share your exact opinion on Powell
(12-18-2019, 11:46 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: No way
Not all reasonable persons share your confidence in the opinions you're espousing
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - HanspardsShowerVoice - 12-18-2019
Brandon Wright playing with Luka as the ball handler with 2019 NBA concepts of floor spacing would actually be a valuable player.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - fifteenth - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 11:46 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Of course...? Why not....? Am I missing something here?
From somewhere up above:
fifteenth I'm also hesitant to make too much change to a roster that's wildly exceeding our expectations and still growing. If we do need different pieces down the road, and those pieces can be had via trade, I tend to think that the continued growth and success of our current roster will make all of our pieces more valuable. And gaining information on what exactly we have on the roster will help us make better decisions down the road. Additionally, I'm not interested in torpedoing this season through the collateral damage of a multi-faceted trade.
(12-18-2019, 11:48 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: There is still a lot of refusal to adapt to the modern 3 point shot dominated NBA where rebounds are dispersed all over the floor and away from the basket. It's not a "real" rebound unless it happens within 2 feet of the rim. It doesn't matter that the Mavs dominated the Pistons in rebounding in their matchup, the Pistons had Andre Drummond doing it the way Charles Oakley did it.
Maybe we made a mistake in trading away DAJ?
(12-18-2019, 12:00 PM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: Brandon Wright playing with Luka as the ball handler with 2019 NBA concepts of floor spacing would actually be a valuable player.
I think we have that guy on our roster now, plus a couple of additional skills
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - ItsGoTime - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 10:15 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: The argument that better players are just better is true to an extent, but the idea that you're trading 3 for 1 assumes that the potential upgrade to player #4 is going to more than make up for the likely downgrades to rotational players 6-9 that you gave up in the trade. You would think after last year there would be more appreciation of how badly it sucks to have to give minutes to guys like Daryl Macon, Broekhoff and Trey Burke out of necessity. The idea that you just split up players into two tiers of "Good" vs. "Not Good" and that everyone in the "Not Good" tier is virtually interchangeable is bizarrely simplistic mindset.Let's take Turner for example. If you consolidate 3 rotational players for the 1 (and 1 rotational on a bad contract) the net is -1 rotational player. The gain is a better player in the mix that plays plenty of time to make up for the -1 (with some of the other rotational players increasing their minutes that some are clamoring for). If we determine that Turner is not the right piece by the end of the season, I don't think he's lost any trade value and you package HIM with the 1st rounder, think of the possibilities that opens up? If he's a good fit, you have an upgrade at the position and better team in the playoffs IMO.
Now apply that logic with appropriate evaluation to players like Jrue or Favors or any other guys that come up as being available from the reporters. A trade for Jrue might need to be a 3 for 1+1, Favors might only need 2 assets (player and pick or 2 lower end players) for 1. Jrue and Favors might be good to go with 5 assets (including picks) for 2+1.
I'd like to say, I don't want to discount what you and others are saying, cause I think it is sound reasoning and not a bad idea either. I just see that if the FO can uncover a sound deal for a better player, I don't think it's good to pass up because the guys we have right now are playing well together. I think a lot of that happened in the Dirk era, and I'd like to correct (what I think is) that mistake.
(12-18-2019, 09:32 AM)fifteenth Wrote: I don't actually begrudge the traffic in the trade threads. At the time of my comment I was just lamenting the lack of new reading material in the other threads. I was being selfish. I wanted a little Mavs fix before I went to sleep.Well, that picked up quite a bit today!
(12-18-2019, 10:14 AM)aguiar95 Wrote: Is this enough?I think that all depends on what Chi thinks of THJ. I am with you on a Chi OPJ trade though, I think he's right there as good as RoCo.
(12-18-2019, 10:35 AM)fifteenth Wrote: I think the lack of agreement in what we need is due to the forum's lack of agreement on what constitutes winning basketball, and disagreement on which Mavs are actually sub-par pieces.I think that is true too (lots of pieces that add up to the whole truth). Sub-par makes the thought so negative though. I don't think of Powell as sub-par as a basketball player, just that he is asked to do something he's less capable of doing vs some other, better players out there. Nothing would make me happier than seeing Powell and Maxi reunited as bench players.
(12-18-2019, 11:30 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: I have two other responses to you, but I don't know how to quote selectively in this format.Are you using a phone or tablet, or a computer? If phone or tablet, sometimes the "Reply" doesn't show up right away for me, but when you highlight a group of words, there should be a "Reply" button that shows up at the bottom of the highlight (edit: if it doesn't show up right away, I usually touch the highlighted words and the highlight goes away, but the "Reply" button shows up, at least that is my experience). Click on that and it takes you to the Quick Reply section with the highlighted words in a Quote box. On a computer, I have yet to see it not show the "Reply" button after highlighting the desired words.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - vfromlmf - 12-18-2019
Paul --> Wolves
Lee, Dieng, Culver --> Thunder
Covington --> Mavs
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - SleepingHero - 12-19-2019
(12-18-2019, 05:55 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: Paul --> Wolves
Lee, Dieng, Culver --> Thunder
Covington --> Mavs
I too would love to just swap Lee for Covington.
However, I'm afraid the Wolves would be committed if they traded Covington along with their most recent pick in Culver for just Paul.
Maybe their losing streak really makes them crazy, but if Donnie pulls off that trade I'd deliver him a 6 pack every week for the rest of time.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - omahen - 12-19-2019
(12-18-2019, 05:55 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: Paul --> Wolves
Lee, Dieng, Culver --> Thunder
Covington --> Mavs
So Mavs give up nothing and get the best player in the trade. I don't know what we are waiting for.
Let's trade THJ for Beal while we are at it:
Mavs: Beal, Atl 2nd
Was: Crabbe (expiring!), Turner (another expiring!), Reddish
Atl: THJ
Another good one for Beal:
Dal: Beal
Was: Turner and Crabbe expiring, THJ
Atl: Wall
Washington gets rid of Wall contract for two expiring ones, Atlanta gets a "perhaps will be star again guy" on a super max contract and Dallas quietly takes Beal while no one notices.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - vfromlmf - 12-19-2019
(12-19-2019, 07:10 AM)omahen Wrote: So Mavs give up nothing and get the best player in the trade.
FYI - Covington isn't the best player in that trade. He's a streaky 3D wing. Valuable, yes. But c'mon.
That aside, in this scenario, the Mavs leverage their supposedly super valuable TE making the Wolves deal for Paul possible financially.
I'll point out Paul is the same age as Jason Kidd was when the Mavs traded for him. The result was a championship. So think about that before you dismiss a future Hall of Famer. Paul would easily be the Mavs second best player ... and don't look now but he's fit in extremely well in OKC and having a really solid season. He has that rag tag Thunder team at seventh in the West, two and a half games above the Wolves with KAT and Wiggins playing well. Think about that.
For the Wolves, Culver, Dieng and Covington for Chris Paul is a steal. OKC would probably also want draft considerations.
For context, the Kidd deal was Devin Harris, Jerry Stackhouse, Devean George, Dasagna Diop, Maurice Ager, two first round picks and cash considerations --> Nets.
Would the Mavs add the GSW pick to the deal to get Covington, I think so.
So a revised deal might look something like:
Chris Paul --> Wolves
Lee, Dieng, Culver, GSW second (Dallas), first round pick (Wolves) --> Thunder
Covington --> Mavs
From a basketball standpoint, that's a solid deal and if Paul's contract weren't so onerous I'd pull the trigger. But Paul's contract obviously makes this deal extremely unlikely.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - bartlettbear - 12-19-2019
Lee and a second for Morris if you need to through in Robey do let it stop you.
We need a D. Stephenson type on this team a dirty edgy player that wont back down. Morris is that guy.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - omahen - 12-19-2019
(12-19-2019, 08:47 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: For the Wolves, Culver, Dieng and Covington for Chris Paul is a steal.
No it is not. Paul monster contract has no interest in the league so giving up one of the most sought after role players on a great team friendly contract would be a massive overpay. Not to mention CP3 in Minny is just screaming for "Star player calls out wanna be stars and beats them with third stringers" sequel.
(12-19-2019, 08:47 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: That aside, in this scenario, the Mavs leverage their supposedly super valuable TE making the Wolves deal for Paul possible financially.
No they were not, you were trading Lee for Covington. Even so, TE can't be used in combination with other players. If they wanted to, Minny and OKC would have absolutely no interest/need to include Mavs as they can do the deal themselves. The way you proposed, OKC actually took more salary by taking Lee and not RoCo. Not to mention the assets OKC could get by further moving RoCo.
(12-19-2019, 08:47 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: I'll point out Paul is the same age as Jason Kidd was when the Mavs traded for him. The result was a championship. So think about that before you dismiss a future Hall of Famer.
So let's just do the Lee+THJ for Paul and collect the championship, since it is such a no brainer.
(12-19-2019, 08:47 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: Would the Mavs add the GSW pick to the deal to get Covington, I think so.
No it wouldn't. It is Lee + 2nd for RoCo, who is certainly worth much more. Sorry man, you usually have good proposals, but this one is straight ridiculous.