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RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - ItsGoTime - 05-01-2020
Wright, JJ and 31 for Oubre would be pretty awesome IMO.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - omahen - 05-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 02:45 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Wright, JJ and 31 for Oubre would be pretty awesome IMO.
From Phoenix perspetive he is a FA next season and there is no certainty he will stay, plus they don't have any bird rights on him. As far as I understood a two year deal also can't get extended. This affetcs every buyer so offers will not be really great. That's why it might be better to seek some return now. They also have Brigdes and Cam Johnson on the wing. They certainly need a third guard in the rotation behind Rubio and Booker.
Regarding Saric - if they go after a good PF like Gallo, Millsap or Bertans, he is gone. This means he will be most likely in the MLE range as not many teams can afford to offer more.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - aguiar95 - 05-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 02:45 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Wright, JJ and 31 for Oubre would be pretty awesome IMO.
Depending on his medicals, I would be inclined to put the 18th (and take out the 31st) pick if he got extended.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - chaparral - 05-01-2020
If you use Dan's 3 charts in his "what we have" post. RPM, 82games.com Simple Rating and 538.com's Raptor Rating. Oubre comes in as a # 8 player (if I read those charts correctly). His REM standing is 473 out of 503 which kills his total score. Same goes for Derrick Jones Jr. His RPM ranking is 400 out of 503. The combined 3 scores avg him at a # 7 player. So I would have to say based off of the 3 charts I would now pass on both Oubre and DJJ.
We should be looking to some how acquire Christin Woods from DET if all posible. His combined player score ranks him at a # 2 player. Also, someone we have talked about before is Derrick Favors, who ranks as a # 3 player.
PS: I'm no longer interested in trading for ORL's Aaron Gordon who's combined score rates him at a # 6 player.
PSS: thanks Dan for the 3 chart info - I hope I'm reading the numbers correctly.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - DanSchwartzgan - 05-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 05:19 PM)chaparral Wrote: So I would have to say based off of the 3 charts I would now pass on both Oubre and DJJ.
PSS: thanks Dan for the 3 chart info - I hope I'm reading the numbers correctly.
You are very welcome. I agree that Oubre has a poor statistical profile. We can argue about how he might improve with a different role and better surrounding cast if we wish (collective we, not you and me). I see his potential acquisition as strategic from a cap standpoint more than helpful on court.
The real benefit here is moving on from Wright and Jackson’s cap cost in 2021. Oubre is a Duffy guy I think...so we showcase him for a year...good agent relations. But, he’s not a keeper unless he catches fire. He’s a larger expiring contract that can bring back a $19 million player at the TDL. Or, he’s an expiring deal...with upside...that makes Wright’s long term salary disappear. He also takes a little pressure off of the need to keep THJ if THJ proves too expensive to retain.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - chaparral - 05-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 06:48 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote:(05-01-2020, 05:19 PM)chaparral Wrote: So I would have to say based off of the 3 charts I would now pass on both Oubre and DJJ.
PSS: thanks Dan for the 3 chart info - I hope I'm reading the numbers correctly.
You are very welcome. I agree that Oubre has a poor statistical profile. We can argue about how he might improve with a different role and better surrounding cast if we wish (collective we, not you and me). I see his potential acquisition as strategic from a cap standpoint more than helpful on court.
The real benefit here is moving on from Wright and Jackson’s cap cost in 2021. Oubre is a Duffy guy I think...so we showcase him for a year...good agent relations. But, he’s not a keeper unless he catches fire. He’s a larger expiring contract that can bring back a $19 million player at the TDL. Or, he’s an expiring deal...with upside...that makes Wright’s long term salary disappear. He also takes a little pressure off of the need to keep THJ if THJ proves too expensive to retain.
OK, a strategic cap standpoint. I have to say I was not looking at the bigger picture - I stand corrected on Oubre. Getting rid of Wright and Jackson for a 2021 FA would be a big move. Your 2021 TDL idea could land us someone like Myles Turner- just saying?
Thanks to Omahen for bring up the Wright, Jackson and the 31st pick post for Oubre. I can eat crow when the bigger picture is presented.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - aguiar95 - 05-01-2020
I feel like it's impossible to know for sure if a guy will succeed or not here. I got tangled up in some weird stats and numbers. We clearly need a guy that can on-ball defend and force turnovers. We also run a system based on 3-pt shooting. Maxi (86% of 3-pt shots wide open, hitting 39% of those), DFS (80% of 3-pt shots wide open, hitting 40% of those) are all products of playing with Luka. KP and THJ also benefit a lot, but they are locks in the S5. Here are some guys with a good open/wide-open percentage (37% or higher) and volume (2.0 attempts or higher), that can defend (or at least force turnovers) and could be obtainable to start or backup that SF/PF void for next season:
- 2020 FA: J. Jackson (23 - MEM), Holiday (31 - IND), Saric (26 - RFA - PHO), KCP (27 - PO - LAL).
- Realistical trade targets for Wright/Jackson/picks that don't mess with the 2021 cap: Johnson (33 - MIN), Dieng (30 - MEM), Oubre (24 - PHO), Young (31 - CHI), Green (33 - LAL).
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - Lui41 - 05-02-2020
How about a trade for Mikal Bridges in exchange for Jalen Brunson, JJax, 2nd round pick.
Suns may need a back up point guard who can also play off-ball. JJax can also play back up minutes for them at either forward spots. 2nd round pick to sweeten the deal.
Brunson and Bridges not that far apart talentwise but Mavs need defense which Bridges will provide plus the potential to be good at shooting the three in the Mavs' system.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - Jym - 05-02-2020
We'll see what ends up happening with the salary cap
This could be exactly the perfect storm to get a player like Lillard basically for free
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - DanSchwartzgan - 05-02-2020
(05-01-2020, 08:34 PM)chaparral Wrote:(05-01-2020, 06:48 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote:(05-01-2020, 05:19 PM)chaparral Wrote: So I would have to say based off of the 3 charts I would now pass on both Oubre and DJJ.
PSS: thanks Dan for the 3 chart info - I hope I'm reading the numbers correctly.
You are very welcome. I agree that Oubre has a poor statistical profile. We can argue about how he might improve with a different role and better surrounding cast if we wish (collective we, not you and me). I see his potential acquisition as strategic from a cap standpoint more than helpful on court.
The real benefit here is moving on from Wright and Jackson’s cap cost in 2021. Oubre is a Duffy guy I think...so we showcase him for a year...good agent relations. But, he’s not a keeper unless he catches fire. He’s a larger expiring contract that can bring back a $19 million player at the TDL. Or, he’s an expiring deal...with upside...that makes Wright’s long term salary disappear. He also takes a little pressure off of the need to keep THJ if THJ proves too expensive to retain.
OK, a strategic cap standpoint. I have to say I was not looking at the bigger picture - I stand corrected on Oubre. Getting rid of Wright and Jackson for a 2021 FA would be a big move. Your 2021 TDL idea could land us someone like Myles Turner- just saying?
Thanks to Omahen for bring up the Wright, Jackson and the 31st pick post for Oubre. I can eat crow when the bigger picture is presented.
No crow necessary. Sometimes it pays to think about the money. In many trades some part of at least one team's motivation is financial.
Think about Phoenix in this deal. Oubre is UFA in a year. He is one of three SF's on their roster and they don't really have a third guard behind Booker and Rubio. Better to lose Oubre for nothing in a year or take on the cheaper Wright who better fits their need and get a very high second for it (Jackson is expiring filler).
I didn't realize how tenacious a driver Oubre was. He's good on the break and attacks the rim off the dribble in the half court. That is a valuable skill in this offense. If Wright isn't a fit here, they need to get his salary off their cap. How do you do that and maintain 2021 flexibility? Take back someone on an expiring deal. It might as well be a shot at catching lightening in a bottle. I don't think he's your third star, but he could be a serviceable starter. Someone could have made some money predicting Hardaway's advanced stats this season. Playing with Luka and a bunch of floor spacers might make a huge difference to Oubre's drive game.
BTW, I was wrong about Duffy. Oubre changed agents about a month ago and now uses the father of Tobias Harris.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - omahen - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 08:52 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: BTW, I was wrong about Duffy. Oubre changed agents
Hopefully not because Duffy was forcing him to come to Dallas
(05-02-2020, 08:52 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: Playing with Luka and a bunch of floor spacers might make a huge difference to Oubre's drive game.
I also think this could substantially increase his efficiency. He was playing with two non shooters (Rubio, Ayton) in Phoenix. His numbers might be reduced in Dallas but his efficiency should improve.
(05-01-2020, 10:26 PM)aguiar95 Wrote: We clearly need a guy that can on-ball defend and force turnovers.
Definitely. Oubre and Saric are not that. I would stay away from J. Jackson - those kind of guys historically didn't do well in Dallas (Rodman, Odom). We don't tolerate nonsense so why bother trying to change anyone. Holiday (Indiana) and KCP are certainly viable poor man choices.
At PG/SG/SF position I believe guys like Jrue, Harris, Bledsoe or Richardson would be a perfect addition to Luka-THJ-KP core and available, at least in theory. Solid shooters and great defenders. Gordon, Turner or (dream) Collins could be great at PF spot.
This gave me a three team idea:
Pho: Wright, Jackson, #31
Den: Oubre
Dal: Harris, (I think we are just a little bit short with salaries so we could throw WCS in the deal)
It would kill our 2021 flexibility, but we have a big expiring contract each in 2020/2021 and 2021/22 to work with. MLE and #18 add a PF solution and another wing.
Luka, Brunson, vet min
Harris, Curry, Reaves
THJ, DFS, #18
MLE, Maxi, vet min
KP, Powell, Bobi
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - Mavs2019 - 05-02-2020
Why would the Suns want another PG/SG and SF like Wright and Jackson? They already have young lottery pick back-ups, that need minutes.
If we assume they allow Saric to walk in RFA, they have about 18-25 left in capspace to sign two bigs, probably want another veteran leader. Therefore the trade options with the Phoenix are limited. Unless the Mavs are willing to part with Powell, which is also unlikely.
-----
The S&T candidate is Kris Dunn imho. The expiring contract of Felicio for the RFA contract of Justin Jackson and Boban, should be enough incentive for the Bulls.
-----
Since Saric was also concerned about minutes, I doubt he´ll willing to sign a contract in Dallas, if we drafted another PF/C, so this would probably mean a PG/SG/SF draft. Draft two prospects with defensive upside like Ramsey and Bey. Extend Lee with the vet minimum.
-----
So ultimately the Mavs 2020/2021 roster could look something like this....
Doncic (SF on defense) / Brunson / Ramsey
THJ / Curry / Lee
Dunn (PG on defense) / DFS / T. Bey
Powell / Saric / Felicio
Porzingis / Kleber / WCS
Minutes distribution
Doncic 32 /Brunson 20
THJ 28/ Curry 24
Dunn 20 / DFS 24
Powell 20 / Saric 24
Porzingis 30 / Kleber 18
There would not be a deeper team in the whole league. We can provide Porzingis and Doncic sufficient rest periods during the regular season, especially if it will be condensed next year.
Plus we´d maintain full FA/trade flexbility for 2021.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - DanSchwartzgan - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 09:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: Why would the Suns want another PG/SG and SF like Wright and Jackson? They already have young lottery pick back-ups, that need minutes.
As I said (I thought clearly), Jackson is expiring filler. He sits well behind Bridges and Johnson on their depth chart. They don't have any young lottery pick backups behind Rubio and Booker. In fact, the team dies when Rubio leaves the game. They absolutely need a proven option at third guard.
They do have some tough decisions at PF and regarding cap space. Baynes and Saric both expire. They can spend $20-$25ish on someone to replace them (Wood, Milsap, Gallinari?). Or, would it be smarter to sign a stop gap to a one year deal and hold cap room to 2021.
Dunn is an interesting question. I was surprised that the Sir Charles article had him a multi-year at well above the MLE. I would have thought you could get him for the MLE or less, but if it ends up being more than that, then a S&T is obviously necessary. I don't think you can start him and Powell as that would kill spacing. Dunn and Maxi? What did you do with Wright in your scenario?
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - Lui41 - 05-02-2020
Kris Dunn is a point guard and cannot. He needs the basketball to be effective. The Mavs are better pff with sticking with Wright which is a better shooter and is can be better on defense.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - omahen - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 09:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: Why would the Suns want another PG/SG and SF like Wright and Jackson? They already have young lottery pick back-ups, that need minutes.
None of their young guys has the ability to be a third guard in the rotation, according to The Athletic Phoenix beat writer and Hollinger. They all got a chance but none stepped up. Third guard in a rotation is one of main tasks of Phoenix this offseason. Jackson is a salary filler.
(05-02-2020, 09:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: The S&T candidate is Kris Dunn imho.
I was thinking a lot about him, but I don't think he could work in our system. Dunn is excellent defender, but could only thrive as on ball guard, as he would completely kill any spacing playing off ball.
(05-02-2020, 09:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: The expiring contract of Felicio for the RFA contract of Justin Jackson and Boban, should be enough incentive for the Bulls.
I don't think this works salary wise (Felicio 8 mil + Dunn approximately 12 mil). You are only giving away 8,5 million.
(05-02-2020, 09:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: Plus we´d maintain full FA/trade flexbility for 2021.
I don't think so, quite the opposite. Saric and Dunn will not come for one year contracts in the MLE range. It would have to be 3-4 year deals.
(05-02-2020, 10:32 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: I was surprised that the Sir Charles article had him a multi-year at well above the MLE. I would have thought you could get him for the MLE or less
Totally agree, I think he overvalued him there. Dunn would be perfect for a team like Atlanta, but I don't see them splashing out 12 mil per for a back up PG
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - aguiar95 - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 09:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: So ultimately the Mavs 2020/2021 roster could look something like this
Doncic (SF on defense) / Brunson / Ramsey
THJ / Curry / Lee
Dunn (PG on defense) / DFS / T. Bey
Powell / Saric / Felicio
Porzingis / Kleber / WCS
I have some concerns about Powell (he mentioned in an interview he's not able to run). My team is kind of similar, assuming WCS take his PO (if not, sign vet min for his place).
- Trade Wright + Jackson (if needed throw the 31st pick) for Ariza/Green/Young/Gay (all expirings or partially guaranteed).
- Sign Saric/Hernangomez/Boucher (MLE, not sure if all of it).
- Draft BPA in their board (I hope they have a board this time) with 18th and 31st pick.
Doncic/Brunson/18th pick
THJ/Curry/Lee
Ariza/DFS/31st pick
Kleber/Saric/Powell
KP/WCS/Boban
Depending on the matchup, DFS/Ariza and Kleber/Saric can switch on the starting lineup.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - Mavs2019 - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 10:43 AM)omahen Wrote:(05-02-2020, 09:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: Why would the Suns want another PG/SG and SF like Wright and Jackson? They already have young lottery pick back-ups, that need minutes.
None of their young guys has the ability to be a third guard in the rotation, according to The Athletic Phoenix beat writer and Hollinger. They all got a chance but none stepped up. Third guard in a rotation is one of main tasks of Phoenix this offseason. Jackson is a salary filler.
(05-02-2020, 09:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: The S&T candidate is Kris Dunn imho.
I was thinking a lot about him, but I don't think he could work in our system. Dunn is excellent defender, but could only thrive as on ball guard, as he would completely kill any spacing playing off ball.
(05-02-2020, 09:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: The expiring contract of Felicio for the RFA contract of Justin Jackson and Boban, should be enough incentive for the Bulls.
I don't think this works salary wise (Felicio 8 mil + Dunn approximately 12 mil). You are only giving away 8,5 million.
(05-02-2020, 09:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: Plus we´d maintain full FA/trade flexbility for 2021.
I don't think so, quite the opposite. Saric and Dunn will not come for one year contracts in the MLE range. It would have to be 3-4 year deals.
(05-02-2020, 10:32 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: I was surprised that the Sir Charles article had him a multi-year at well above the MLE. I would have thought you could get him for the MLE or less
Totally agree, I think he overvalued him there. Dunn would be perfect for a team like Atlanta, but I don't see them splashing out 12 mil per for a back up PG
I forgot to include Wright in the Dunn trade. I got Wright out so quickly, I had already forgotten about him the moment I fake-traded him.
It would be Wright for Dunn S&T, and Felicio for Jackson+Boban in a secondary trade.
Ty Jerome has been on an NBA floor for three months. Okobo has shown flashes. Without Saric they literally have no PF on their whole roster. They decide to let him, then replacing him will be the top priority.
Dunn would have the same contract as Wright, so there is no difference. Saric at the MLE is always tradeable.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - omahen - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 11:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: Ty Jerome has been on an NBA floor for three months. Okobo has shown flashes.
Literally half of the Phoenix overview article is about the need for third guard in the rotation. I doubt any of us watched Phoenix enough to be able to counter this opinion of their beat writer.
Couple of quotes: "Suns had a bevy of young guards on the roster but none of them seized the full time back-up job. I would try to move all of them. Lecque was overwhelmed even in G-league. Carter is free agent, Okobo has non-guaranteed deal - they should move on from both." Than they mention Augustin, Reggie Jackson and Teague as possible options for room exception, which they can use if they operate below the cap. I guess Wright is totally on par with those options.
(05-02-2020, 11:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: Without Saric they literally have no PF on their whole roster.
I said before - if they go for a proven PF with their cap space, Saric is out (not enough cap space without this). They can also choose to resign him. So their decision will be based on the fact, if a proven high level PF wants to sign with them.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - Mavs2019 - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 12:06 PM)omahen Wrote:(05-02-2020, 11:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: Ty Jerome has been on an NBA floor for three months. Okobo has shown flashes.
Literally half of the Phoenix overview article is about the need for third guard in the rotation. I doubt any of us watched Phoenix enough to be able to counter this opinion of their beat writer.
Couple of quotes: "Suns had a bevy of young guards on the roster but none of them seized the full time back-up job. I would try to move all of them. Lecque was overwhelmed even in G-league. Carter is free agent, Okobo has non-guaranteed deal - they should move on from both." Than they mention Augustin, Reggie Jackson and Teague as possible options for room exception, which they can use if they operate below the cap. I guess Wright is totally on par with those options.
(05-02-2020, 11:44 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: Without Saric they literally have no PF on their whole roster.
I said before - if they go for a proven PF with their cap space, Saric is out (not enough cap space without this). They can also choose to resign him. So their decision will be based on the fact, if a proven high level PF wants to sign with them.
Well then their beat writer is not very bright. Jerome is a rookie PG and made his NBA debut on Dec. 3rd.
If they can sign those players mentioned for the RLE, why would they pay twice as much for Wright? They can sign those guys to one year deals, too.
I don´t see Wright as a very tradeable contract. If you want to create 2021 capspace, then something like Powell+Wright for Batum is probably more realisitic than the idea that Wright is a net neutral contract.
Personally I don´t think the Suns need to sign anybody at PF. I think they´ll trade for Blake Griffin and Saric will be going the other way. The Pistons can comfortably pay Saric above the MLE and make him the #1 option during their rebuilding years. Maybe the Suns can even get Derrick Rose in the process, given the atrocity that is Blake´s contract.
Not that I want to give the Suns any ideas, cause for all his flaws
Rubio
Booker
Oubre
Blake
Ayton
6th man Rose
is just another problem in the Western Conference.
RE: Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart - omahen - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 12:29 PM)Mavs2019 Wrote: If they can sign those players mentioned for the RLE, why would they pay twice as much for Wright? They can sign those guys to one year deals, too.
I guess I don't need to repeat my arguments behind the Oubre trade, as I have already put them.
(05-02-2020, 12:29 PM)Mavs2019 Wrote: Well then their beat writer is not very bright. Jerome is a rookie PG and made his NBA debut on Dec. 3rd.
Wow!
1. Your statement has nothing to do with a claim, that he is not capable of filling the 3rd guard role. At least not immediately. There were plenty of games since December.
2. Their beat writer has a name and a surname, you are Mavs2019. And John Hollinger, who was debating with him, is extremely respectable NBA name. Not that I am saying they are always right, but I think there are a lot of facts supporting their claim. Your only claim is that Jerome is a rookie PG