Mavs 113, Nuggets 117

[KillerLeft]

Would you target a "big" as the return for KP or more of a "wing"?

Man, if I were running the Mavericks and I had decided to trade KP, my priorities would be (in order):

1) upside - star potential
2) youth - even closer to Luka's age, if possible.
3) synergy with Luka's game, regarding both play style and attitude

I wouldn't care what position they played. In some ways, trading KP is essentially pressing the "do over" button on the entire roster re-build. I think you start over as if Luka is the only constant and re-examine the entire thing in that scenario.

[Kammrath]

If only Jokic weren't untouchable....

[Scott41theMavs]

We've talked a lot here about trading for Aaron Gordon (pros and cons). What about a trade that was centered around KP for Vucevic?

[KillerLeft]

@"Kammrath" here's a trade I'd do. It won't be popular, but keep in mind that I'm only thinking about this if/when it becomes obvious that I WANT to move KP. I don't think the team is anywhere near that point yet, and shouldn't be, so this won't happen. But...

I can see how Sacramento could talk themselves into thinking that the combo of Hield and KP might open a TON of space for speedy Fox to do his work. And, they'd be right. 

No idea if they'd want him this much, but I would pull the trigger on a deal involving Haliburton and Bagley in an instant.  I would go into it expecting Bagley to be a project, and possibly ultimately even write him off. The quality of his play would be irrelevant, as my goal would simply be to pair Haliburton with Doncic (I believe that much in Haliburton). Now, if the team could somehow resurrect Bagley's career, "fallen angel" style, that's even better, but I'd probably start shopping him on the resale market pretty much immediately. I think he's a bust, and part of the cost of getting Haliburton.

I would start out trying to build this trade with those two and using Corey Joseph to make the money work, but if they needed me to eat the last two years of Harrison Barnes to get it done, I might still do it. If they're trying to win now though, I don't think they'd want to dump Barnes. They obviously like him. 

Then, I'd start selling off all three of those expiring contracts. What kind of young, bench-riding (but with potential) talent can I get from contenders for THJ, Richardson and Johnson, all of whom can help a win-now team? Can I get some draft capital, too? I think getting stuff for the future in exchange for these guys will be MUCH easier than getting a MAJOR piece who's better than any of them. I might even look for good trades of the value guys (Kleber, DFS, etc), depending on how expensive I thought they'd be to re-sign when their current deals are finished. Basically, I'd start behaving like my best player is 21 and not care about making the playoffs this year or next. NOTE: some of this wouldn't be possible if the deal went down next summer, but I'd do whatever version of this paragraph that was still possible in this fantasy scenario. 

Then, I'd sign Luka to his rookie max extension, realizing that my team was probably taking 2-3 steps back, but that my second building block was still on his rookie contract. I'd play the crap out of all three rookies they just drafted. Hopefully, I'd have picked up some other interesting youngsters from the paragraph above, and maybe added some important picks back to the cupboard. 

BOOM. Reset achieved, and in 1-2 years, I'd be right back where they are now, but hopefully without some of the problems they're experiencing. Just getting the cap situation right alone makes this attractive to me.

[RDB]

Not sure if this is realistic in terms of trade fit, but everyday that passes has me more enamored with the idea of prying Collins away from ATL. 

I think KP's value is in line with that (maybe even a little better) but I don't think ATL will want KP on their team. Just doesn't seem like a fit for them. 

The first team who comes to mind that might really value him is Boston, but a lot can change between now and the summer. If we were serious about finding a trade partner to move KP, I'd have to spend some time considering who needs a stretch big and would be inclined to value one with a star name and deeper scoring potential.

At the end of the day, I kind of doubt there's a team out there who'd value him more than Dallas does.

Double ditto on Collins.  Then Donnie needs to work his magic and get Jarrett Allen.

https://media.giphy.com/media/12hdDovmUPVmy4/giphy.gif

[KillerLeft]

We've talked a lot here about trading for Aaron Gordon (pros and cons). What about a trade that was centered around KP for Vucevic?

Vucevic is a better player than Porzingis, I think. Tough to swallow, but that's kind of the way it looks to me this year (so far). 

I hate that it seems like I'm so down on KP, because I'm not. I just hate the timeline his contract has put the team on. He really needs to workout here soon, if he ever will.

[Kammrath]

Vucevic is a better player than Porzingis, I think.

ZERO question on that. The allure of KP is whether he has an untapped level to still achieve and that he is significantly younger. I think Vuc is at his ceiling which right now is better than KP, easily. 

To Vuc I am likely not interested because adding a soon to be 31 year old guy when you are hitting a light restart doesn't make sense to me. But I LOVE Vuc.

[KillerLeft]

To Vuc I am likely not interested because adding a soon to be 31 year old guy when you are hitting a light restart doesn't make sense to me. But I LOVE Vuc.

Yeah, same. I interpreted Scott's comment like a suggestion that somehow a package built around KP could net Vuc AND Gordon. I don't think that's very likely. 

But yeah, even straight up, he's not a fit for this timeline in Dallas, I don't think.

[Jason Terry]

We will be fine. KP is a quality player. He got no camp or pre season having to work back into game shape. He obviously has a lot of pressure on him. Big contract and Luka is demanding(as he should be)........KP can’t play the “im not happy here” card again, so we will see full effort from him and exactly what he can do.

There is so much season left and we still haven’t played a single minute at full strength. This is all about to turn around for us. Let’s go mavs!

[KillerLeft]

There is so much season left and we still haven’t played a single minute at full strength.

So true. This could all look exponentially better in 3 weeks.

[Mapka]

@"Kammrath" here's a trade I'd do. It won't be popular, but keep in mind that I'm only thinking about this if/when it becomes obvious that I WANT to move KP. I don't think the team is anywhere near that point yet, and shouldn't be, so this won't happen. But...

I can see how Sacramento could talk themselves into thinking that the combo of Hield and KP might open a TON of space for speedy Fox to do his work. And, they'd be right. 

No idea if they'd want him this much, but I would pull the trigger on a deal involving Haliburton and Bagley in an instant.  I would go into it expecting Bagley to be a project, and possibly ultimately even write him off. The quality of his play would be irrelevant, as my goal would simply be to pair Haliburton with Doncic (I believe that much in Haliburton). Now, if the team could somehow resurrect Bagley's career, "fallen angel" style, that's even better, but I'd probably start shopping him on the resale market pretty much immediately. I think he's a bust, and part of the cost of getting Haliburton.

I would start out trying to build this trade with those two and using Corey Joseph to make the money work, but if they needed me to eat the last two years of Harrison Barnes to get it done, I might still do it. If they're trying to win now though, I don't think they'd want to dump Barnes. They obviously like him. 

Then, I'd start selling off all three of those expiring contracts. What kind of young, bench-riding (but with potential) talent can I get from contenders for THJ, Richardson and Johnson, all of whom can help a win-now team? Can I get some draft capital, too? I think getting stuff for the future in exchange for these guys will be MUCH easier than getting a MAJOR piece who's better than any of them. I might even look for good trades of the value guys (Kleber, DFS, etc), depending on how expensive I thought they'd be to re-sign when their current deals are finished. Basically, I'd start behaving like my best player is 21 and not care about making the playoffs this year or next. NOTE: some of this wouldn't be possible if the deal went down next summer, but I'd do whatever version of this paragraph that was still possible in this fantasy scenario. 

Then, I'd sign Luka to his rookie max extension, realizing that my team was probably taking 2-3 steps back, but that my second building block was still on his rookie contract. I'd play the crap out of all three rookies they just drafted. Hopefully, I'd have picked up some other interesting youngsters from the paragraph above, and maybe added some important picks back to the cupboard. 

BOOM. Reset achieved, and in 1-2 years, I'd be right back where they are now, but hopefully without some of the problems they're experiencing. Just getting the cap situation right alone makes this attractive to me.

You know Luka wouldn't sign then.
I'm not saying he demands a trade or wants to leave, but after pushing all-in on a lousy hand you are on the clock. And he didn't like the full shuffle the first time. 

I normally like your input but I have a really hard time to see what you want to achieve here. 

Is it just endless believe into Haliburton? Why gut everything else after trading for him?

Is it a need for the tank, because we kinda skipped the dark times? 

Is it panic because we lost a game? 

Do you hate this team (the players) that much? You would have to get rid of Donnie and RC too, because the new team would look like this again.

Don't panic, the answer is 42.

[SleepingHero]

I think the Mavs might have a KP problem, not only on the court, but off the court. Let's hope it gets figured out quick.

We went from speculating some vague comments after a tough loss about players holding themselves more accountable, to calling out our 2nd best player, calling him a problem, and throwing him in trades. 

Yeesh.

[KillerLeft]

You know Luka wouldn't sign then.

So far, nobody has ever turned down a rookie max extension. Not once. KP was threatening to be the first, but of course accepted once he landed in Dallas.

I know it seems a little crazy, what I suggested, but the exercise was “what if you have to punt on KP?” In the circumstance of KP totally busting out here, I really don’t see a way for the current iteration of the Mavericks to mature into anything worthwhile. My thinking is that Luka is 21 years old and they are basically guaranteed four or five more years of him.

When his rookie max extension expires, I feel like he 100% will leave this team if they are not in position then, at that time, to win a championship. I’m really not worried about him refusing to sign an extension this coming summer at all. The deadline is four years from now, not now.

Like I said in the post you quoted, I don’t think it’s time for the team to give up on Porzingis, but if they do, the sooner they act, the better, imo. You mentioned pushing all in on a bad hand… That’s exactly what moving bad pieces around for other bad pieces over the course of the next five years would be, in my opinion.

The goal is to be a perennial contender for championships, not a perennial 6-8 seed. Again, the exercise was based on the idea that the Mavericks would be stuck specifically because of Porzingis. In that scenario, yeah, I really think the best thing to do would be to clear the decks and start over, being careful to do it right this time. There is still time for that, in my opinion.

---

We went from speculating some vague comments after a tough loss about players holding themselves more accountable, to calling out our 2nd best player, calling him a problem, and throwing him in trades. 

Yeesh.

I think everyone who participated in the discussion today was really careful to point out that it was all hypothetical and just a conversation for fun.

If it will set everyone’s mind at ease, I will publicly declare now that IF I am secretly a Mavs official spying here, and IF I have the power to trade KP, I don’t plan on doing so anytime soon (just like I said in every post above).

[Mapka]

So far, nobody has ever turned down a rookie max extension. Not once. KP was threatening to be the first, but of course accepted once he landed in Dallas.

I think you´re mixing up cause and effect here. No team with a real superstar waiting for an extention started a tank ever, except for the Knicks.

Look what Giannis has done to the Bucks this summer. Superstars make sure, every Dollar and every pick are spent on the team before they sign their contract.

And Luka is even more into winning then most of the others.

I know it seems a little crazy, what I suggested, but the exercise was “what if you have to punt on KP?” In the circumstance of KP totally busting out here, I really don’t see a way for the current iteration of the Mavericks to mature into anything worthwhile. My thinking is that Luka is 21 years old and they are basically guaranteed four or five more years of him.

When his rookie max extension expires, I feel like he 100% will leave this team if they are not in position then, at that time, to win a championship. I’m really not worried about him refusing to sign an extension this coming summer at all. The deadline is four years from now, not now.

*points on AD* - he didn´t even sign his contract, when people talked about him forcing a trade, if the Pels kept missing the playoffs. And that´s the way it went.

Like I said in the post you quoted, I don’t think it’s time for the team to give up on Porzingis, but if they do, the sooner they act, the better, imo. You mentioned pushing all in on a bad hand… That’s exactly what moving bad pieces around for other bad pieces over the course of the next five years would be, in my opinion.

I get the KP thing, even if I think it´s wrong. But "look what you can get for Maxi, DFS and THJ" is driving me crazy. That´s what we are seeing right now.
Ugly basketball with maybe talented players trying to adapt to a difficult and demanding system not everybody is made for.

Oh and yes I like this players as "persons" I like to root for them more than I would like to root for a player growing up elsewhere.

[Kammrath]

We went from speculating some vague comments after a tough loss about players holding themselves more accountable, to calling out our 2nd best player, calling him a problem, and throwing him in trades. 

Come on, let's not be dramatic and turn simple, speculative conversation into anything more than what it was.

Sorry if you don't like fans trying to figure out why their team is struggling and seems to have some significant chemistry issues and why the coach keeps talking about "selfish" play. No one has made ANY definitive comments.  

[KillerLeft]

I get the KP thing, even if I think it´s wrong. But "look what you can get for Maxi, DFS and THJ" is driving me crazy. That´s what we are seeing right now.
Ugly basketball with maybe talented players trying to adapt to a difficult and demanding system not everybody is made for.

Oh and yes I like this players as "persons" I like to root for them more than I would like to root for a player growing up elsewhere.

Hey, I like those guys, too. A lot. 

And I'm not suggesting "tanking". My goal (in the hypothetical doomsday scenario of KP being a dud) would be to reset the TIMELINE of the group. Not to tank. 2 steps back to SPRING 5 steps forward. I'd be trying to win the entire time, just with younger players. 

It's not worth arguing about at all, because it's not going to happen. It was just a topic some of us got interested in, and I took a stab at a quick reset.

[LukTheShadow]

To build up team is RC's job. RC is normally very diplomatic and always cover for team.
I don't believe when he put "selfish" out on press he meant somebody particular. I accepted that as a one of whole team deficiency on defence side..

[Kammrath]

I accepted that as a one of whole team deficiency on defence side.

Except he clearly said that unselfishness on the OFFENSIVE side is what is needed to get guys playing unselfishly on the defensive side. So he is clearly talking about issues of selfish offense. We are just trying to puzzle through what the details might be of that.

[LukTheShadow]

I'll will not, that's my interpretation, RC put that in strange twisted way.
But for me it's nothing to worry about.

[SleepingHero]

Come on, let's not be dramatic and turn simple, speculative conversation into anything more than what it was.

I wasn't trying to be dramatic! I was just a bit taken aback to see how quick we were to throw KP in trades to fix a supposed problem.

Imagine say if Luka was the one behind the supposed locker room turmoil (as in he is the sole person people are irked about), would we be so quick to find a trade for him and ship him out? 

I reckon the answer be no. And it'd almost certainly be because of how good Luka is that we're willing to tolerate all sorts of stuff. But has KP not shown that, when healthy, he's almost on the same level? 

After his slow start he only got better and better. (PTS/REB/AST/BLKS)

OCT- 22.3/7.8/3.3/2.5 on 42.9/33.3/73.1
NOV- 15.8/9.9/1.0/2.1 on 38.7/35.5/68.3
DEC- 17.2/9.4/1.4/2.1 on 40.9/33.7/75.5
JAN- 17.2/6.8/1.2/1.0 on 41.2/31.4/81.5
FEB- 25.2/10.6/2.3/1.8 on 48.3/39.8/88.1 
MAR- 23.2/11.2/3.2/3.6 on 41.3/31.1/72.7
Bubble- 30.5/9.5/2.2/1.5 on 47.6/38.1/89.1
Playoffs- 23.7/8.7/0.7/1.0 on 52.5/52.9/87.0


He ended last season averaging 26.3ppg and 10.4 rpg with amazing defense. That's certainly special stuff that I wouldn't want to easily give away for some role players. This caveat is if he stays healthy of course, but if he isn't healthy he wouldn't be traded easily anyways. 

I just find it interesting that when we brought up the speculation, we mentioned Luka as being a possible source of it, but justified it as a consequence of his drive/desire/winning mentality and all the great ones have it and others have to adjust or get better. But when KP was brought up, we talk about all the trades we can throw him in for for other players that haven't even crossed 20 ppg.