Preseason Game 4: DET vs. DAL

[Jym]

I will die on almost any let's get Kidd fired hill, but starting DJJ does make some sense.  Team would be very small with Luka, Kyrie, Josh, Grant, and Lively.  

Biggest issue with Green is he plays better without Luka.  If they don't figure that out, then it might be best if he blossoms on another team.

Giving me some Brunson flashbacks with that talk

But yeah Green doesn't feel like the problem sizewise with that starting lineup. We need someone who can guard the guards anyway, especially speedy point guards. And just from a current roster construction standpoint and from a future team building standpoint, going the DJJ route makes little sense to me. On a one year deal and if he breaks out at all then we will not be re-signing him. Shifting Green to the bench muddies that guard water even more and leaves Tim as the only other consistent shooter off the bench who would for sure be in the rotation.

[Moviemavguy]

Giving me some Brunson flashbacks with that talk

But yeah Green doesn't feel like the problem sizewise with that starting lineup. We need someone who can guard the guards anyway, especially speedy point guards. And just from a current roster construction standpoint and from a future team building standpoint, going the DJJ route makes little sense to me. On a one year deal and if he breaks out at all then we will not be re-signing him. Shifting Green to the bench muddies that guard water even more and leaves Tim as the only other consistent shooter off the bench who would for sure be in the rotation.

We absolutely had issues with Brunson's size no matter how good he was, and I was in the pay him 30 mil a year camp.  Doesn't make a flaw any less a flaw.  

As others have mentioned, Green is more of a guard and plays like one.  So you have three guards, an undersized pf in Grant and Lively.  I'm fine if they roll with it, but DJJ plays bigger than he is IMO.

Again, Green's problem is not whether he starts or not.  Green's problem is he doesn't play well with Luka.

[Chicagojk]

I will be disappointed if no deal is reached. I am sure there are different viewpoints between the two parties. There needs to be an agreeable middle of both parties are reasonable. Green is looking at 50-60 million he can secure now. Could he get more in the off-season? Sure, but he could also get much less. That will still leave him in his prime for a potentially much bigger payday for his next contract.

I just hope we are not here a year from now hearing Cuban trying to blame Brunson’s dad

[DanSchwartzgan]

Again, Green's problem is not whether he starts or not.  Green's problem is he doesn't play well with Luka.

And this is based on?

Prior to the trade the Luke/Green minutes were +15.3...by far the best of any Luka pairing.  The year before it was +6.1...Luka's second best combo.

After the trade last season Green was positive in a two-man lineup with either Luka or Kyrie (obviously some of those minutes overlap with both stars...and those were positive also).  B-Ref doesn't break out Green/Luka w/o Irving or Green/Irving w/o Luka any more.  I think you have to have Second Spectrum to do that.  But, I'm not sure I'm worried about it even if the Green/Luka minutes w/o Irving were negative.  It is a tiny sample with Green coming off injury, Luka hobbled and Luka/Kyrie having no idea how to play together.  We signed Kyrie to $40mm per year on the belief the two of them can figure it out.  Are we really worried that Green can't go back to being fantastic with Luka? Really?

[DanSchwartzgan]

Yeah that is a good point.   We will need one more 3/4.  I have always viewed it will be Green, Williams, Omax (hope he can play) and X.   Ideally that X is a taller wing....at least 6'8 but hopefully taller.    If you have four wings of good caliber you would hope you could play 3 of them together at times.   Such as Williams plays small ball 5.  X is your bigger wing and Josh/Omax is the other wing.   I think that would be the ideal pairing.   Who is that X though?

Yeah, the question is whether that taller wing (some would call this a PF) would move Josh to the bench or Grant to the bench.  I'm not sure the answer has to be Josh.  If we added P.J. Washington or J. Grant or Siakam, I think Williams takes a seat (and I like Williams).  

But, at some point we have to figure out our area of biggest need.  If we are looking at this on a multi-year basis we will get more growth from Green and Lively.  They may even both be plus starters.  I just don't see Williams as more than a good role player as a starter.

[The Jom]

Like the pro-Josh sentiment. The idea that we don’t need someone to defend speedy guards is comical. If you call Luka a guard, you’d better start a forward who specializes in defending guards.

[SleepingHero]

Some late thoughts about this game:

Positive things:

• Josh Green looked incredibly good.
  
• Kyrie Irving is still a very good basketball player.
  
• If DJJ can hit a consistent 3 then the wing depth may be overstated
  
• Dereck Lively looks way more polished then I ever imagined him being and I can see why people were salivating over this kid. I thought he'd be WCS 2.0. He looks like he's got the right stuff. 
  

Negative things:

• The Grant Williams signing so far looks to be a swing and a miss. He's a good player don't get me wrong, but a starter caliber guy...? Thankfully it wasn't a massive overpay
  
• There has been an ongoing trend where now it concerns me that the Mavs look and play better when Luka isn't on the court. It's happened so much that now it's a fact. On how to fix it, I'm not sure. But the ball movement was the best I've seen in over a year from the Mavs and they need to play like that when Luka is on the court. 
  

[dirkfansince1998]

• There has been an ongoing trend where now it concerns me that the Mavs look and play better when Luka isn't on the court. It's happened so much that now it's a fact. On how to fix it, I'm not sure. But the ball movement was the best I've seen in over a year from the Mavs and they need to play like that when Luka is on the court. 
  

I guess we need to have a discussion about the term fact...

Looking at on/off numbers last season was the best of his career. Prior to the Kyrie trade he was carrying the team on his own. But even after the trade it wasn't really about Luka. Despite all the chemistry/coaching/fitness issues Luka/Kyrie lineups had a +4.2 net rating. It's fair to point out that Kyrie on his own performed better than Luka but we shouldn't forget that Luka has been dealing with nagging injury issues.

Not like I haven't asked for more player and ball movement but we tend to forget that as far as half court offense goes Luka-ball has been the most efficient offense in the league over the last three seasons. The issue when it comes to lineups with Luka has always been on the defensive end.

What it comes down to for the coaches (zero trust in Kidd to get this done) is the right balance. I don't think Luka needs to bring the ball up the court on every single possession. Mavs should try to push the pace instead of just looking for Luka. Luka doesn't need to initiate the action. Even if he isn't a willing catch and shoot option he can act as a screener or come around screens to force switches. At times even as a decoy that isn't touching the ball.
Looking back at last seasons numbers it is in the best interest of the team to increase his post touches. With improved chemistry and some basic read/react options (a little bit like Jokic in Denver) that should create more opportunities for cuts to the rim or simple swing passes after Luka collapses the defense.
But when it matters most I still want to see spread pick and roll with Luka as the primary ballhandler.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Imagine it is the week of the TDL.  Our starters are Luka, Kyrie, Green, GWill and Lively.  We decide to spend some draft capital to upgrade one of those guys.  Are we sure Green or Lively are the weakest links?  Are their positions really the spot we need to spend assets?

I think I'd spend assets to move Williams to the bench if I were spending assets.  Lively is going to be really good some day.  His offense is going to be more that we were led to believe.  He and Powell will be fine as early as next season.  I'm not doing anything with Green.  I'm excited to someday see the 25 or 26 year old version of him.  GWill doesn't have near the upside of Green.  Real contention comes when we have someone who clearly pushes him to the bench.

I love the GWill signing, but long term his role on a championship team is coming off the bench.  I agree that with J.Green's and Lively's progress, the likely upgrade is at PF.  Would you want a more PF/SF or a PF/C?

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

I guess we need to have a discussion about the term fact...

Looking at on/off numbers last season was the best of his career. Prior to the Kyrie trade he was carrying the team on his own. But even after the trade it wasn't really about Luka. Despite all the chemistry/coaching/fitness issues Luka/Kyrie lineups had a +4.2 net rating. It's fair to point out that Kyrie on his own performed better than Luka but we shouldn't forget that Luka has been dealing with nagging injury issues.

Not like I haven't asked for more player and ball movement but we tend to forget that as far as half court offense goes Luka-ball has been the most efficient offense in the league over the last three seasons. The issue when it comes to lineups with Luka has always been on the defensive end.

What it comes down to for the coaches (zero trust in Kidd to get this done) is the right balance. I don't think Luka needs to bring the ball up the court on every single possession. Mavs should try to push the pace instead of just looking for Luka. Luka doesn't need to initiate the action. Even if he isn't a willing catch and shoot option he can act as a screener or come around screens to force switches. At times even as a decoy that isn't touching the ball.
Looking back at last seasons numbers it is in the best interest of the team to increase his post touches. With improved chemistry and some basic read/react options (a little bit like Jokic in Denver) that should create more opportunities for cuts to the rim or simple swing passes after Luka collapses the defense.
But when it matters most I still want to see spread pick and roll with Luka as the primary ballhandler.

Brilliant take.  Not much more to add than Luka needs to more model his game after Lebron.

[DallasMaverick]

I guess we need to have a discussion about the term fact...

Looking at on/off numbers last season was the best of his career. Prior to the Kyrie trade he was carrying the team on his own. But even after the trade it wasn't really about Luka. Despite all the chemistry/coaching/fitness issues Luka/Kyrie lineups had a +4.2 net rating. It's fair to point out that Kyrie on his own performed better than Luka but we shouldn't forget that Luka has been dealing with nagging injury issues.

Not like I haven't asked for more player and ball movement but we tend to forget that as far as half court offense goes Luka-ball has been the most efficient offense in the league over the last three seasons. The issue when it comes to lineups with Luka has always been on the defensive end.

What it comes down to for the coaches (zero trust in Kidd to get this done) is the right balance. I don't think Luka needs to bring the ball up the court on every single possession. Mavs should try to push the pace instead of just looking for Luka. Luka doesn't need to initiate the action. Even if he isn't a willing catch and shoot option he can act as a screener or come around screens to force switches. At times even as a decoy that isn't touching the ball.
Looking back at last seasons numbers it is in the best interest of the team to increase his post touches. With improved chemistry and some basic read/react options (a little bit like Jokic in Denver) that should create more opportunities for cuts to the rim or simple swing passes after Luka collapses the defense.
But when it matters most I still want to see spread pick and roll with Luka as the primary ballhandler.

So…

If Luka touches the ball less, and there’s more ball movement, and it’s more fun to watch the team play…and offensive efficiency goes down, and the team loses more games…

Will you be happier?

[dirkfansince1998]

So…

If Luka touches the ball less, and there’s more ball movement, and it’s more fun to watch the team play…and offensive efficiency goes down, and the team loses more games…

Will you be happier?

It is in the teams best interest to do whatever it takes to win games. And as a fan I want them to win as many games as possible. if that means Luka is getting all the touches I am fine with it. If that means Luka isn't getting any touches I am just as happy.
But I obviously have my own ideas how the best possible version of the Mavs looks.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

We absolutely had issues with Brunson's size no matter how good he was, and I was in the pay him 30 mil a year camp.  Doesn't make a flaw any less a flaw.  

As others have mentioned, Green is more of a guard and plays like one.  So you have three guards, an undersized pf in Grant and Lively.  I'm fine if they roll with it, but DJJ plays bigger than he is IMO.

Again, Green's problem is not whether he starts or not.  Green's problem is he doesn't play well with Luka.

Luka plays the point from the SF spot.  Yes, you can play him with 2 guards (J.Green is 100% guard), but you can expose more matchups by playing him with a guard and a true SF.  Ideally with GWill, you would want a SF/PF.  Ultimately, I see J.Green as a defensive stopping 6th man.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

It is in the teams best interest to do whatever it takes to win games. And as a fan I want them to win as many games as possible. if that means Luka is getting all the touches I am fine with it. If that means Luka isn't getting any touches I am just as happy.
But I obviously have my own ideas how the best possible version of the Mavs looks.

Indeed.  In my mind you scheme something with Luka giving the ball up earlier and isn't always the automatic pass back unless he's spotting up or moving to the basket.  Again, Lebron is the perfect model for Luka's offensive game.

[SleepingHero]

Looking at on/off numbers last season was the best of his career. Prior to the Kyrie trade he was carrying the team on his own. But even after the trade it wasn't really about Luka. Despite all the chemistry/coaching/fitness issues Luka/Kyrie lineups had a +4.2 net rating. It's fair to point out that Kyrie on his own performed better than Luka but we shouldn't forget that Luka has been dealing with nagging injury issues.

Very true. I've said something similar last year when people were discussing usage rates. Despite Luka's ball domination, he conjures up a top 5 NBA offense by himself alone. One that can rank historically too. So of course it doesn't make much sense to limit that. When I said my little comment of it being a fact the Mavs look better without Luka, I didn't mean that they were a better basketball team without him. I'm a Luka stan and everything points to Luka being fine on offense. My comment was more highlighting the ball movement issue vs. actually saying the Mavs are better without Luka (although now rereading it through the other lens I was not clear at all, whoopsie).

I think its quite obvious ball stagnation isn't a good quality to have in an NBA offense, even if the person holding the ball is one of the most prolific scorers of all time. It's a team sport. It will always be a team sport.

What it comes down to for the coaches (zero trust in Kidd to get this done) is the right balance. I don't think Luka needs to bring the ball up the court on every single possession. Mavs should try to push the pace instead of just looking for Luka. Luka doesn't need to initiate the action. Even if he isn't a willing catch and shoot option he can act as a screener or come around screens to force switches. At times even as a decoy that isn't touching the ball.
Looking back at last seasons numbers it is in the best interest of the team to increase his post touches. With improved chemistry and some basic read/react options (a little bit like Jokic in Denver) that should create more opportunities for cuts to the rim or simple swing passes after Luka collapses the defense.
But when it matters most I still want to see spread pick and roll with Luka as the primary ballhandler.

I've been quite dejected the last couple of weeks about this team's upcoming season, but this part of your comment gives me hope. Kidd doesn't inspire confidence and we're wasting every single day this dude is employed here, but a good coach could institute a similar system that Denver has that still plays to Luka's strengths. That's a good way to integrate more ball movement and overall offensive movement for some variety into the scheme without losing the core identity of what makes Luka the ball maestro that he is.

Anyways thank you for that.