GAME 13 DIRKIE: Winner KP (67%) | Runner-up THJ (24%)

[fifteenth]

I’ve read pretty much every single basketball related post on this board since finding it back in the late 1990’s (or was it the early 00’s, I can’t remember…Scott do you?), I can’t tell you a single poster that has written a bad rating of DFS. If there are no bad rating posts of DFS, how can he be underrated? Maybe Fif or KL can point me to a couple?


I was a part of the DFS vs RoCo discussion, I certainly hope the KL group doesn’t believe DFS to be better than him. If they do, I got nothing for that take, the careers speak for themselves.

LOL, no to researching thousands of posts.

I gotta go see if the clothes dryer is done so I can put my DFS jersey back on. I have to take it off every few days and freshen it up.

[fifteenth]

And you probably lost Killer on this. He seems to avoid getting down in the mud. But I'll go a few rounds with the anti-DFSers!!!!!

[dirkfansince1998]

LOL, no to researching thousands of posts.

I gotta go see if the clothes dryer is done so I can put my DFS jersey back on. I have to take it off every few days and freshen it up.

https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=403&page=9&highlight=covington

The internet never forgets...except for the stuff that was lost when the board moved.

[ItsGoTime]

https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=403&page=9&highlight=covington

The internet never forgets...except for the stuff that was lost when the board moved.

So because people don't think DFS is as good as RoCo, he's underrated? Ridiculousness!

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And you probably lost Killer on this. He seems to avoid getting down in the mud. But I'll go a few rounds with the anti-DFSers!!!!!

A few rounds on what? Making DFS out to be better than RoCo? Do you honestly believe that?

[KillerLeft]

I personally think we should save the term "underrated" and "overrated" for extreme circumstances outside the natural range

I personally don't agree. Those terms are actually not extreme at all. 

If I think a guy is a 10/10 and YOU think they're a 9/10, then you underrate him, in my opinion, and I overrate him in yours. So that's exactly what I'm going to say. Why this is pushing people's buttons, I have no clue. 

Now, in my sig, I have added the word "criminal" - THAT adds a little extremity to it. But, that's just because I now find this argument to be funny. I never would've guessed that the use of "underrated" in a conversation about a Mavs player on a Mavs message board would've started an argument. Honestly, I'm embarrassed for all of us.

[Kammrath]

I personally don't agree. Those terms are actually not extreme at all. 

If I think a guy is a 10/10 and YOU think they're a 9/10, then you underrate him, in my opinion, and I overrate him in yours. So that's exactly what I'm going to say. Why this is pushing people's buttons, I have no clue. 

Now, in my sig, I have added the word "criminal" - THAT adds a little extremity to it. But, that's just because I now find this argument to be funny. I never would've guessed that the use of "underrated" in a conversation about a Mavs player on a Mavs message board would've started an argument. Honestly, I'm embarrassed for all of us.

It's 100% the energy and way in which the term is used, not the term itself. 

Again I think there are two ways to use the term generally speaking:

1) I "underrate" DFS compared to you. This is true.

2) I "underrate" DFS relative to his natural range of ranking and evaluation. This is not true for me or @"ItsGoTime" as examples.


Hence I don't want to be labeled as someone who underrates DFS because I don't generally speaking. But at the same time, I get that I underrate him compared to you personally.

[ItsGoTime]

Now, in my sig, I have added the word "criminal" - THAT adds a little extremity to it. But, that's just because I now find this argument to be funny.

I'll see your "criminal" and raise you!

[KillerLeft]

It's 100% the energy and way in which the term is used, not the term itself. 

Again I think there are two ways to use the term generally speaking:

1) I "underrate" DFS compared to you. This is true.

2) I "underrate" DFS relative to his natural range of ranking and evaluation. This is not true for me or @"ItsGoTime" as examples.


Hence I don't want to be labeled as someone who underrates DFS because I don't generally speaking. But at the same time, I get that I underrate him compared to you personally.

Ok, except...

I don't think I ever said "hey @"ItsGoTime" YOU underrate DFS - WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?!"

I'm pretty sure this all started with something along the lines of "DFS is underrated." That's a statement that I consider reasonable. Somehow, THAT made people mad. I honestly, truly, do not know how. I'm not a troll, so I don't study these things. 

I really, really don't see how anyone can get from there to the idea that I'm out to label anyone.

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[ItsGoTime]

It's 100% the energy and way in which the term is used, not the term itself. 

Again I think there are two ways to use the term generally speaking:

1) I "underrate" DFS compared to you. This is true.

2) I "underrate" DFS relative to his natural range of ranking and evaluation. This is not true for me or @"ItsGoTime" as examples.


Hence I don't want to be labeled as someone who underrates DFS because I don't generally speaking. But at the same time, I get that I underrate him compared to you personally.

In addition, the use of "this board" says that the majority of posters here underrate him in the way Kamm explained. I hardly ever see a post "rating" DFS other than your posts saying he's underrated, and even then, you're not "rating" him.

[ItsGoTime]

I really, really don't see how anyone can get from there to the idea that I'm out to label anyone.

Again, the use of "this board" narrows it down to anyone who posts here. That puts the mind in the position of evaluating one's self as to where we "rate" DFS. If you come to the conclusion that you don't "rate" DFS as highly as KL and Fif do, then you're a part of "the board" that is being talked about. That puts a person on the defensive and the frequency in which it occurs, it doesn't suggest it's in jest or a joking manner.

[Kammrath]

I'm pretty sure this all started with something along the lines of "DFS is underrated."

By whom? Honest question. Who do you specifically see underrate DFS?

[KillerLeft]

Again, the use of "this board"

Sorry, when did I do this? I just read through the whole conversation, just to make sure I didn't say anything that could've been construed as an attack. I might've missed something, but I don't feel like I attacked anyone, even incidentally or accidentally. 

If so, I apologize, obviously. 

I DO believe that DFS is an underrated player. Not criminally, that part is a joke. But, significantly enough to say so. It's my opinion, and this is a place for opinions. I don't expect everyone to agree, but I also don't get whey it seems to have drawn certain people offsides here.

[KillerLeft]

By whom? Honest question. Who do you specifically see underrate DFS?

Ok, so first I'm the bad guy for applying the label of "underrater" to people, even though I feel like I specifically didn't label anyone...

...and now, I'm being asked to label people?

Let's say it like this:

I think DFS is already one of the 10 most important Mavs of all-time. I think he's emblematic of this entire post-Dirk era, and one of the most important contributors to the level of success this version of the team has attained, so far. 

I do not think he's the weak link, on the roster or in the starting lineup. This doesn't mean I think he's "untouchable," but it's a good bet I'm more against trading him than someone who does view him as the weak link. I do not think he needs to be upgraded. Doesn't occur to me to ask that question, honestly. 

I think he's a borderline special player of a type that's much more difficult to find than MANY fans believe. When in the right role on the right team, I think he's extremely valuable. 

The above are my opinions. They are not meant to hurt anyone. They are meant to celebrate the great Dorian Finney-Smith! He is my current favorite Maverick (which is not the same as saying he's the best, since everything I'm saying is being scrutinized, all of a sudden).

[Kammrath]

I think DFS is already one of the 10 most important Mavs of all-time.

Ok, well let me throw out a label:

You are an overrater of DFS.  


P.S. I am not mad about any of this, and I don't think you have done anything "wrong." But I do get @"ItsGoTime"'s perspective. And I do think there is some generic fighting against a "boogieman" that doesn't exist out there in regard to DFS being underrated.

[fifteenth]

A few rounds on what? Making DFS out to be better than RoCo? Do you honestly believe that?

I haven't said anything about RoCo. 

I just meant "go a few arounds" in the silly discussion about you guys not wanting people to say that DFS is underrated by this forum.

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And I do think there is some generic fighting against a "boogieman" that doesn't exist out there in regard to DFS being underrated.

It's not a boogieman for me. I read posts. I think, "wow, DFS is underrated around here." Why the need to say "there's nothing to see here"? We're arguing over an opinion held by a few folks based on posts they (me) have read. 

I guess the best I can do is that the next time I see a post that makes me think that, I'll give you more detail about why I think that that particular post underrates DFS. Then you can tell me I'm wrong with more ammunition.

[KillerLeft]

You are an overrater of DFS.

Yes, opinions vary and I'm aware that I'm on the extreme end of the appreciation spectrum with this, particular player. That's why I said what I said to begin with. 

But it's MY opinion, I'm putting out there for everyone to see, and I really believe it.

Disagreeing with, making fun of, judging, engaging with, trying to disprove MY OPINION is all fair game around here. That is quite literally the point of this place, unless I have badly misunderstood what we're doing here all these years.

[Kammrath]

I guess the best I can do is that the next time I see a post that makes me think that, I'll be able to give you more detail about why I think that. Then you can tell me I'm wrong with more ammunition.

I would love to see an example next time you have one. Then you can tell me I am wrong.

[fifteenth]

Also...here's something else you guys can spend energy telling me I'm wrong about.

I don't buy the "we need to trade DFS because we have no other way to improve the team" mantra.

[Kammrath]

Disagreeing with, making fun of, judging, engaging with, trying to disprove MY OPINION is all fair game around here.

For sure, we are here to disagree and engage with opinions.



Let me try to explain what I think @"ItsGoTime"'s and my main issue (and what gets me riled up more than anything else in this space) is:

False characterization of the opinions of others. 


Let's please disagree with each other! But let's disagree with real positions and opinions of others as they have presented them. I definitely am not saying you and @"fifteenth" are doing this or do this regularly (like some do). I think @"ItsGoTime" is just wanting to be heard that he is fact DOES have a high opinion of DFS. It may not be as high as yours, but he wants to be heard that he highly values what DFS brings to the table. I think @"ItsGoTime" would quickly admit that he "underrates" DFS compared to you, but I think he would say he does not "underrate" DFS according to the reasonable range of opinion.

People want to be heard, listened to, and understood. We all want that. And I think we can all do our best to try to make sure we offer that to each other. And again, I think you do a good job of that, so I am just speaking generically.

[KillerLeft]

False characterization of the opinions of others. 

Yeah, but I didn't do that. Not remotely close. 

"DFS is underrated."

Or, the jokes in my sig:

"DFS is so criminally underrated" and finally...
"DFS is so criminally underrated here."

These are characterizations of my opinion, and not about "others." They are specifically about one person, Dorian Finney-Smith. 

Anything else is just "others" reading into things.

If you or anyone else wants to bench DFS for Bullock, trade him or whatever, then it IS my opinion that you or anyone else is underrating him. That's my opinion, sorry. I stand by it. I do NOT agree that anything I said in this thread (including this paragraph, but the stuff that started the argument was even more benign) was hurtful to anyone in any way. 

I think @ItsGoTime is just wanting to be heard that he is fact DOES have a high opinion of DFS. It may not be as high as yours, but he wants to be heard that he highly values what DFS brings to the table. I think @ItsGoTime would quickly admit that he "underrates" DFS compared to you, but I think he would say he does not "underrate" DFS according to the reasonable range of opinion.

The relativity of our opinions IS the discussion. Discussion is what we're going for - it's the goal. I never said that @"ItsGoTime" or anyone else hates, or has no appreciation for the great Dorian Finney-Smith. Underrated simply implies a lower level of appreciation than my own. It's not something that can be measured, scientifically, it's literally an opinion-based general term. 

What are we doing here, guys?