GAME 13 DIRKIE: Winner KP (67%) | Runner-up THJ (24%)

[KillerLeft]

I would include DFS for any one of these guys save for Wood/Valanciunas/Murray, and maybe Smart depending on the package.

I think I would trade him more easily than you then, because I'd do everyone from your list but Smart or Wiggins (thinking value, not roster fit, at least). 

My fight isn't over getting DFS to all-star status, I'm just dumbfounded that there are actually Mavs fans who don't see how important he is and has been to this team. 

You can say he's rated properly if you want - I won't argue. I'm just telling you, players like DFS are not a dime a dozen. Every team is trying to pick up more of them.

[fifteenth]

I think he's rated quite on the spot.

This seems hard to quantify to me. The reason I think he's underrated on this forum is because of the consistent stream of posts that I see that underrate him and far less posts and posters that seem to appreciate him.

[mvossman]

I have speculated that DFS might be expendable because of RB, but that is total guesswork from me. All I have wanted is more of a balance in their minutes. I think DFS loses some of his effectiveness when his minutes get higher (especially over 30 IMO) and I think RB offers this team something really special it doesn't really get from anywhere else (in large part because of his quick release and ability shoot coming around screens). 

And for the record I really like having BOTH guys on the team, but realistically I see DFS as one of the Mavs trade chips if they decide to upgrade via trade.

I'm not seeing how Bullock makes DFS expendable.  DFS spends a lot of time at the 4, and I don't see Bullock being able to do that.  He is smaller and averages like 2 rebounds a game.  Given that this team is light on quality 4s (basically Maxi and DFS) I don't see Bullock filling the void.

[ItsGoTime]

I think DFS does much more to tangibly and positively affect the game than Boban does, so that comparison doesn't make sense to me

This misses the point I made entirely. The correlation is in the mentality that some have that Boban is some must sign/can’t trade entity because he’s Luka’s best friend (which I’ve read here multiple times).


Sure those things are important to come from a good source, but it isn’t/shouldn’t have so much weight put on it. Those personalities and social abilities aren’t exclusive to the players we have on our team. 

For sure your assessment of DFS abilities is stronger than mine, but that doesn’t mean my assessment comes to the conclusion that he sucks or whatever. His on court play is good enough, I would love to have someone who brings more from the position he plays where some of the most skilled players in the game play (which to me means there are plenty to choose from that would be upgrades).

[KillerLeft]

This misses the point I made entirely. The correlation is in the mentality that some have that Boban is some must sign/can’t trade entity because he’s Luka’s best friend (which I’ve read here multiple times).

 

No, I got your point, it’s just that the things you’re talking about through the point, while undeniably positives in DFS’ favor, aren’t the attributes that make me claim he is underrated.

I tried to clear it up in the last sentence, because I was pretty sure this was going to be your response. I don’t think his intangibles are the story here, I think he is underrated as a PLAYER.

So, for me, the Boban comparison doesn’t hold water, though I understand what you are going for.

[ItsGoTime]

 

No, I got your point, it’s just that the things you’re talking about through the point, while undeniably positives in DFS’ favor, aren’t the attributes that make me claim he is underrated.

I tried to clear it up in the last sentence, because I was pretty sure this was going to be your response. I don’t think his intangibles are the story here, I think he is underrated as a PLAYER.

So, for me, the Boban comparison doesn’t hold water, though I understand what you are going for.

I think your group’s overrating evens it all out.

Also, I hardly ever see anyone rating him around here other than you and the usual suspects that like your posts, so I don't understand the underrated tag.

[Kammrath]

I would add that it seems to me the trio of Luka/Brunson/Hardaway has been exceptionally effective lately on offense (would love a confirmation/denial of that from @Kammrath). 

117.5 ORating for the season, basically the same in the last 5 games.

But this is mostly a JB+THJ phenomenon it seems, anchored by JB. 

JB leads the whole team in ORating with 113.8.....THJ is 107.6.....Luka is 104.4.

JB+THJ is 118.9....JB+Luka is 113.0.

[KillerLeft]

I think your group’s overrating evens it all out.

Also, I hardly ever see anyone rating him around here other than you and the usual suspects that like your posts, so I don't understand the underrated tag.

This seems hostile. If I did something to offend you, I apologize.

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117.5 ORating for the season, basically the same in the last 5 games.

But this is mostly a JB+THJ phenomenon it seems, anchored by JB. 

JB leads the whole team in ORating with 113.8.....THJ is 107.6.....Luka is 104.4.

JB+THJ is 118.9....JB+Luka is 113.0.

Thanks for this. 

I'm pretty torn. I think Luka+2 guards seems like a good idea, in some ways, but I don't think it plays into the roster's strengths, really. 

At least this season it's an option, now that Ntilikina and Brown are around to get bumped up to fill the gaps.

[sterlingmallory]

I would be willing to trade DFS but not because I don't appreciate what he brings or think he's easily replaceable. For me it's more practical than that. It's more about how else can we improve the team without opening up a gaping hole somewhere else? KP, THJ, and Brunson are the only others on the team besides Luka that can score or make plays. You could convince me to trade anyone outside Luka, but we would HAVE to make sure that if we traded one of those three that we're getting back someone who is at an equal level or better at scoring or playmaking. 

So if you aren't trading one of those guys then who else on the team has any value at all? No one is going to give anything of value for Powell, Sterling Brown, WCS, or Burke. Ntilikina, Omoruyi, and Moses are the young guys we want to keep and try to develop. That pretty much just leaves DFS, Maxi, or Bullock.

We just signed Bullock so I doubt the FO wants to immediately move him. That leaves DFS or Maxi. What could a package of DFS, Green, and Powell get? I think we could take back about 18 million in salary with that trade package. Swap Maxi in for DFS and we take on an even bigger contract.

The problem with trading Maxi is he's our only worthwhile big besides KP. So really, it just leaves DFS as the only option. At the very least, you'd still have Bullock to play the 3 and Maxi to play the 4. 

It's not ideal. I don't want to "get rid" of anyone. But you have to give something to get something so it's a matter of figuring out who you can move without opening up huge holes somewhere else. We're capped out, so the only ways to improve is via exceptions, trades, and draft picks. If we want to take this team to the next level it's possible we'll have to make some tough decisions, and if DFS is the one that falls on, then so be it I guess.

[ItsGoTime]

This seems hostile. If I did something to offend you, I apologize.

Not trying to be hostile, sorry if it came off that way. It seems to come in waves, claiming DFS to be underrated and gets a little tiresome. 


Again, I don't dislike DFS or his contribution to this team at all, just believe his spot should be one that is looked at as one that should be upgraded. Not as much as Powell's mind you, but should be none-the-less (especially since the decision has been made to start THJ, which creates a large issue of point of attack defense). If the right player comes along and is available for what we have, I don't think DFS should be in any way a deterrent to pulling the trigger on that deal. You and I will disagree on who that "right player" is though due to the "rating" we have for DFS (as a player, as a locker room leader as whatever goes into the total rating, which I believe the leadership/lockerroom presence/personality thing is a bit overrated on this board and feel it is a little PTSD from the Rondo trade).

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I would be willing to trade DFS but not because I don't appreciate what he brings or think he's easily replaceable. For me it's more practical than that. It's more about how else can we improve the team without opening up a gaping hole somewhere else? KP, THJ, and Brunson are the only others on the team besides Luka that can score or make plays. You could convince me to trade anyone outside Luka, but we would HAVE to make sure that if we traded one of those three that we're getting back someone who is at an equal level or better at scoring or playmaking. 

So if you aren't trading one of those guys then who else on the team has any value at all? No one is going to give anything of value for Powell, Sterling Brown, WCS, or Burke. Ntilikina, Omoruyi, and Moses are the young guys we want to keep and try to develop. That pretty much just leaves DFS, Maxi, or Bullock.

We just signed Bullock so I doubt the FO wants to immediately move him. That leaves DFS or Maxi. What could a package of DFS, Green, and Powell get? I think we could take back about 18 million in salary with that trade package. Swap Maxi in for DFS and we take on an even bigger contract.

The problem with trading Maxi is he's our only worthwhile big besides KP. So really, it just leaves DFS as the only option. At the very least, you'd still have Bullock to play the 3 and Maxi to play the 4. 

It's not ideal. I don't want to "get rid" of anyone. But you have to give something to get something so it's a matter of figuring out who you can move without opening up huge holes somewhere else. We're capped out, so the only ways to improve is via exceptions, trades, and draft picks. If we want to take this team to the next level it's possible we'll have to make some tough decisions, and if DFS is the one that falls on, then so be it I guess.

Also this, well said.

[fifteenth]

TEAM DFS!!!! WOOHOOOOO! NEED MORE TEAM DFS POSTS TO LIKE!!!  DON'T BE HATE'N!! STOP THAT UNDERRATE'N!!

[mvossman]

I would be willing to trade DFS but not because I don't appreciate what he brings or think he's easily replaceable. For me it's more practical than that. It's more about how else can we improve the team without opening up a gaping hole somewhere else? KP, THJ, and Brunson are the only others on the team besides Luka that can score or make plays. You could convince me to trade anyone outside Luka, but we would HAVE to make sure that if we traded one of those three that we're getting back someone who is at an equal level or better at scoring or playmaking. 

So if you aren't trading one of those guys then who else on the team has any value at all? No one is going to give anything of value for Powell, Sterling Brown, WCS, or Burke. Ntilikina, Omoruyi, and Moses are the young guys we want to keep and try to develop. That pretty much just leaves DFS, Maxi, or Bullock.

We just signed Bullock so I doubt the FO wants to immediately move him. That leaves DFS or Maxi. What could a package of DFS, Green, and Powell get? I think we could take back about 18 million in salary with that trade package. Swap Maxi in for DFS and we take on an even bigger contract.

The problem with trading Maxi is he's our only worthwhile big besides KP. So really, it just leaves DFS as the only option. At the very least, you'd still have Bullock to play the 3 and Maxi to play the 4. 

It's not ideal. I don't want to "get rid" of anyone. But you have to give something to get something so it's a matter of figuring out who you can move without opening up huge holes somewhere else. We're capped out, so the only ways to improve is via exceptions, trades, and draft picks. If we want to take this team to the next level it's possible we'll have to make some tough decisions, and if DFS is the one that falls on, then so be it I guess.

My biggest issue with trading guys like DFS/Maxi is that I don't see them getting back the value that they are providing the team.  Guys like that don't get much value in trades, but we desperate need players who are quality on defense and don't kill you on offense.  I feel like losing either causes a gapping hole that is not easily filled and I'm skeptical throwing either into a trade is going to return equal value back.  The reality is that due to 3 years of mismanagement, this team does not have hardly any tradable assets, and our best bet is going to be expiring guys plus picks (once we get access to them).

[fifteenth]

My biggest issue with trading guys like DFS/Maxi is that I don't see them getting back the value that they are providing the team.  Guys like that don't get much value in trades, but we desperate need players who are quality on defense and don't kill you on offense.  I feel like losing either causes a gapping hole that is not easily filled and I'm skeptical throwing either into a trade is going to return equal value back.  

LIKE!!!!!

[sterlingmallory]

My biggest issue with trading guys like DFS/Maxi is that I don't see them getting back the value that they are providing the team.  Guys like that don't get much value in trades, but we desperate need players who are quality on defense and don't kill you on offense.  I feel like losing either causes a gapping hole that is not easily filled and I'm skeptical throwing either into a trade is going to return equal value back.  The reality is that due to 3 years of mismanagement, this team does not have hardly any tradable assets, and our best bet is going to be expiring guys plus picks (once we get access to them).

That's an understandable point, but we have to do something eventually. The team can't stay exactly the same forever. I know it sucks that the FO has screwed up literally every big move since drafting Luka, but the only choice now is to work with what we have. So if you don't move DFS or Maxi then I guess that means it's one of KP, THJ, or probably most likely, Brunson, because every one else on the roster has next to no value. That's fine, but also really risky. You better be getting a scorer/playmaker back. If you can do that then by all means, but it won't be easy. With KP's huge contract and Brunson's tiny contract, it also might be pretty hard to get equal value for them as well. 

Another thing to think about, is DFS going to get overpaid this summer? I love what he brings to the locker room and defensively, but he really doesn't have a lot of gravity on offense. He gets left open constantly and is at best a good shooter, but not elite. Teams are willing to gamble on DFS beating them. I think Bullock and Maxi space the floor more than DFS personally.

So I don't know, there are no great options unless we find a stupid team willing to trade something of value for our trash. 

It's really funny how Cuban's mantra since the last lockout has been "flexibility" and keeping the powder dry and not clogging up cap space, only have us now in a position where we have very little flexibility and not many assets to improve. Peak irony. But what can you do I guess? Maybe we can hit a home run on an MLE signing and our draft pick this summer?

[ItsGoTime]

STOP THAT UNDERRATE'N!!

Strawman.

[fifteenth]

Strawman.

[fifteenth]

@"ItsGoTime", I was trying to add a little siliniess to the situation with my "Wooohoooo" post. But to your "strawman" assertion, I'll just add that my thought that DFS is often underrated by this forum is an opinion. I see DFS. I see what people say. I have an opinion. Not sure that can be a strawman, pal. 

You can say my opinion stinks if you want! I'm ok with that.

[Kammrath]

@ItsGoTime, I was trying to add a little siliniess to the situation with my "Wooohoooo" post. But to your "strawman" assertion, I'll just add that my thought that DFS is often underrated by this forum is an opinion. I see DFS. I see what people say. I have an opinion. Not sure that can be a strawman, pal. 

You can say my opinion stinks if you want! I'm ok with that.

Yeah, I don't think it is REALLY a strawman argument....BUT I think @"ItsGoTime" has a legit point that many of us who REALLY, REALLY love DFS often get labeled as "underrating" him. And of course, from your perspective, we might still "underrate" him (legit opinion), but in a general sense he is not significantly underrated on this board. In fact he might be "overrated".....just saying.  

There is a natural range of opinions on any given player and we should welcome that range without labeling each other. I personally think we should save the term "underrated" and "overrated" for extreme circumstances outside the natural range. It is like how some folks think I am some "Luka hater" when I express concern about his conditioning and early season performance. That is actually laughable because he is my favorite player on the whole team! And yes my opinion of Luka is "down" from last year, but I do not believe I am "underrating" him in some general sense that needs calling out or something.

[fifteenth]

There is a natural range of opinions on any given player and we should welcome that range without labeling each other.

We're getting in the weeds on small potatoes, I think. But, to be clear, I haven't labeled anyone. 

I just labeled the WHOLE FORUM!!!!!! 

Look, while I sit over here in the corner changing "DFS, DFS, DFS",  you guys can chant "dfs, sorta, dfs, sorta" if you want...as long as Clutch allows it. He's my leader.

[ItsGoTime]

Yeah, I don't think it is REALLY a strawman argument....BUT I think @"ItsGoTime" has a legit point that many of us who REALLY, REALLY love DFS often get labeled as "underrating" him. And of course, from your perspective, we might still "underrate" him (legit opinion), but in a general sense he is not significantly underrated on this board. In fact he might be "overrated".....just saying.  

There is a natural range of opinions on any given player and we should welcome that range without labeling each other. I personally think we should save the term "underrated" and "overrated" for extreme circumstances outside the natural range. It is like how some folks think I am some "Luka hater" when I express concern about his conditioning and early season performance. That is actually laughable because he is my favorite player on the whole team! And yes my opinion of Luka is "down" from last year, but I do not believe I am "underrating" him in some general sense that needs calling out or something.

I’ve read pretty much every single basketball related post on this board since finding it back in the late 1990’s (or was it the early 00’s, I can’t remember…Scott do you?), I can’t tell you a single poster that has written a bad rating of DFS. If there are no bad rating posts of DFS, how can he be underrated? Maybe Fif or KL can point me to a couple?


I was a part of the DFS vs RoCo discussion, I certainly hope the KL group doesn’t believe DFS to be better than him. If they do, I got nothing for that take, the careers speak for themselves.