Of Freedom, Country and Vaccination

[dirkfansince1998]

I'm not sure what you mean by style but in terms of the people I generally like to avoid attacks based on the person rather than the issue and argument.  You might know that these types of points in discussion/debates lead to what is known in logic as   ad hominem arguments.

Sorry. Badly phrased on my part. Should have added an explanation. What I mean is that you (and I hope that I am understanding you correctly) do not share the opinion of anti vaxxers that you quoted in your posts. You wanted to bring up their opinion to bring some balance to a in your opinion one sided debate. The mentioned approach gives the entire discussion a pro/contra setup that lacks nuance. I contributed as well. Despite my declaration not to turn this into a purely medical/scientifc debate I failed to do that. I could have been more emphatic towards different believe systems and the role of anectodal experience or stories. Not just responded with the statistics/studies that apply for the mentioned examples.

I would have liked to see more discussions of relevant vaccine risks like the mentioned myocarditis/pericarditis example instead of claims that have been refuted for month. With and I am repeating myself clear data and knowledge. Examples like misscariages or fertility issues (repeated by Mr. Yeadon). That´s what I consider to be dangerous misinformation because pregnant women are at an increased risk of severe illness. And once again. It could have been handled better. It is still common practice to exclude pregnant women from early clinical vaccine trials (pro/con would is another interesting discussion). That´s why governments/agencies had to wait for the necessary evidence before they could adjust their vaccine guidelines for pregnant women.

That is the point in referencing or quoting them.  I don't like to spend much time attacking the personal motives of people you and others have quoted or referenced no matter which side their arguments tend toward.  I prefer to examine the points made themselves, no matter who made it. 

All fair and outside of a few mentioned names (can we ignore people that were part of the crowd that stormed the capitol?) I would agree with that approach. But and now it gets difficult. How do you verify their takes. Or do you just accept that different opinions exist? If that is the case we go back to the earlier more philosophical discussion. Do facts even exist. I have a very strong opinion when it comes this topic.
In case of the last interview with Mr. Yeadon.
He is talking about the role of t-cells and antibodies. He is making it look like it is a proven fact that antibodies aren´t as important. As far as I know (according to the studies I saw) that is still up for debate. But even if he is right all relevant studies suggest that an additional vaccine shot also bolsters the t-cell activity. Why is he leaving that out?
In the next part he is giving a more broad answer on lasting immunity after any kind of viral infection. Instead of giving detailed examples (because the answer is complicated) he makes an oversimplification that suggests lasting immunity (years, decades) in case of most virus. Answer is once again. Different virus, different immune response. A slightly longer explanation with mentions of serotypes and cross immunity would have been great.
And I am not even suggesting bad intentions. Just looking at my attempts in the last few days he is clearly doing a better job when it comes to easy explanations for topics like this.

I am not on the vaccinate all people no matter the consequences train. We should consider the mentioned "at risk" for complications groups but I have no time for people that continue to repeat the same claims and ignore any further research on the topic.
Once again. I am no expert but to give this thread a slightly new direction. Let´s talk about some additional measures that could help. The EU created a vaccine certificate that also applies for fully recovered. Different languages. Different cultures. Not a problem. Was discussed among politicans in the US but the divide between red/blue states and concerns about personal data/freedom means that we will probably never see something similar in the US. Makes it extremly hard to track immunity.

Next part. Solutions that could improve the situations for certain risk groups. I think by now I don´t need to repeat the details of the mentioned myocarditis/pericarditis examples. Option one. Easiest solution. Use another vaccine. In this case Pfizer seems to be better than Moderna. Haven´t done the research on Johnson&Johnson. Should at least mention that other vaccines exist outside the US.
But what if vaccination for a majority of children is not wanted. Well. We aren´t hearing enough about ventilation and other measures to improve the situation in public buildings or schools. And this isn´t a US only problem. Entire western world missed the trend.
Vaccination is still by far the best option to limit the damage and get back to a "new normal" but we shouldn´t forget additional measures. Imagine if anti vaxxers would focus on things like that instead of chasing new miracle drugs.