Of Freedom, Country and Vaccination

[dirkfansince1998]

@"dirkfansince1998", thanks

Great job of presenting straight forward explanations, advocating for peer reviewed research and calmly pointing out logical fallacies while not descending into youtube comment section style flame throwing matches.

My flame throwing self is reserved for Mavs related topics. Especially free agency...

[Dahlsim]

So far you have listed a woman that links COVID cases to 5G and one of the main protagonists of the vaccination/autism theory. Neither is willing or able to provide any prove. Both made a lot of money with it.

First let me say I appreciate your reasoned replies whether I agree or not with all the points.

I gave a few examples, the issue of dissent in the medical and scientific community is much, much larger.  Remember that the Doctors and Scientists that do come out and express concerns and dissent do so at their own peril!  If you saw the video with Robert Kennedy Jr. who is involved in the legal fights you should know that for every medical professional that speaks out there are an undetermined number that have been suppressed.

Just one site, covid.daystar.com lists many credentialed doctors and scientists expressing serious concerns. I could easily list more sites with more doctors and scientists but as I said, the main reason I posted at all is on the because the issue is about freedom and liberty, choice in the tradition that that the United States was founded on.

How many Doctors and Scientists do you need before its clear to you that there is significant disagreement in the medical and scientific community on this matter, despite all efforts to suppress and strong arm people and their families?
Does that strong armed oppressive approach not bother you at all seeing it done to your fellow citizens and peers?

You already know I imagine about the former VP of Pfizer of 26 years, Dr. Michael Yeadon and his dire warnings I imagine, and of course he's been attacked and defamed endlessly.  Is it a number you need?  I don't even have to try hard to find lists like this:

57 Top Scientists and Doctors: Stop All Covid Vaccinations
57 Top Scientists and Doctors: Stop All Covid Vaccinations

[Dahlsim]

Not sure how to respond. Concerns like this might have been valid in december or january. At this point the sample size isn´t small. 6.3 billion doses. 2.7 billion fully vaccinated.

We know about complications that can appear shortly after the jab and the potential risk groups. Even in those cases the risk to suffer longterm health problems is a lot higher in case of a COVID infection most of the time. That´s why most "at risk" patience are still advised to take the shot.
If you are waiting for some unknown longterm effects even though the vaccine itself already left the body at max weeks after the shot I am not sure what you are expecting.

I understand that because a large number have been vaccinated you and others can feel comfortable. The obvious and HUGE discrepancy in your position is that you don't know the number or percentage of your number which are adverse or outright detrimental, do you?

Is it .1% or .2% or 2.0% or 5%? If you don't accurately count the adverse events and even worse there is evidence in their urgency to reach herd immunity and control the populations they are actively suppressing data on not only adverse events but any information whatsoever that might raise concerns over the vaccination movement.

In terms of long term effects are you serious acting as if there is nothing to consider? We haven't even went thru the another flu season yet. Some highly credentialed doctors and researchers have raised concerns about increased vulnerability to other influenzas and compromised immune systems. I could go pull a couple of very impressive names but I don't think it would make any difference for people that really made up their mind already.

You are doing the same stuff all over again. Come up with some random he said/ she said, what about this or that. What about pregnant women?
As far as the data goes the miscarriage rate among vaccinated women is right in line with the general population. No anomalies. (UK, US). Yes miscarriages happen but there is no evidence that the vaccine itself increases the risk.

....
If people want to do their own research I am all for it but the way it is happening right now is clearly not working. Twitter, youtube and other media platforms are not the way to go.

Matter of fact. A basketball board is probably one of the worst possible places.

You're missing a lot of information my friend.
Its fairly clear to me that you're not really examining much that doesn't affirm the position you already hold, and of course everyone is free to do that as well.

Our own family doctor is quite a local expert on the virus and he's also very supportive of the vaccine, at least he was up until our last conversation. I respect his opinions very much. I've had some in depth discussion with him on this from the inception of the pandemic. so despite all the dissenting data I have presented I continue to approach the entire issue with an open mind.

In terms of "YouTube videos" I would think you know by now that the major social media platforms including YouTube, Twitter and Facebook are all into outright censorship now and cooperate with the central government. New buzz words like misinformation have been substituted to allow for what we in the United States used to call censorship.

Now we don't call it censorship as long as the designated fact-checkers (new buzz term) have told us that what they removed from our view was misinformation. You see how that works. Its very handy and we can all be sure that our science and data inputs are accurate after the fact checkers have removed all the nasty misinformation and banned all the bad doctors and misbehaving people in the public forum.

I guess you didn't notice but not a single video I posted was from Youtube. One of those videos was posted according to Daystar and quickly hit over 3 million views before YouTube took down the misinformation.
So glad that the all wise overseers of social media giants are keeping us away from the bad misinforming people.

How did we ever survive and prosper as a country before we had all these wonderful fact checkers?
Truly a mystery.

[Dahlsim]

One thing that hasn't received much attention since this topic got stirred up again by the Mavs' attendance requirements: the Mavs aren't requiring vaccination for entry. You can either show proof of vaccination OR a recent negative test. 

IMO, the inclusion of the ability to show a negative test takes this discussion completely outside of the "The Mavs are wrong to try and make me...." conversation. Having to show a negative test for entry into a large gathering makes so much sense.

That is a sensible compromise.  Kudo's to Cuban and the Mavs on considering the diverse views in the MFFL community. 

One thing that is also lost in the push for vaccination is that there are other means for reducing the Covid risk and effect in addition to vaccinations. 
Someone posted earlier about means of strengthening our natural immunity for example.  

Then many report effectiveness of certain prophylactics and treatments.  
Vaccinations are not the only way to address the pandemic or even to reach herd immunity.

[david75090]

I'll repeat myself. I'm on the side of humanity. "I know not what course others may take". This position. That position. Feel strongly both ways? Hooray for Humans! Whatever it takes to kick the virus' ass, if it has one. I advocate for the vaccine. To kill the virus. Because the virus is the enemy. Rights? Who's rights? The right to life? The life of humanity. It's been said that our rights end with the other person's nose. Do we have the right to infect another person with our germs? Is that really even an issue? Why are we worrying about our rights when OTHERS are dying? It's not about US. It's about others. Get vaccinated for the sake of yourself AND others. If you don't want to, because of "your rights", stay away from others so others can enjoy their own rights. Their right to not have their lives be endangered.

[MFFL]

57 Top Scientists and Doctors: Stop All Covid Vaccinations

This is the site the article first appeared

https://en-volve.com/2021/05/08/57-top-s...cinations/

I can't seem to get pictures to post - visit it yourself and see if you think the information would be impartial

[Dahlsim]

I'll repeat myself. I'm on the side of humanity. "I know not what course others may take". This position. That position. Feel strongly both ways? Hooray for Humans! Whatever it takes to kick the virus' ass, if it has one. I advocate for the vaccine. To kill the virus. Because the virus is the enemy. Rights? Who's rights? The right to life? The life of humanity. It's been said that our rights end with the other person's nose. Do we have the right to infect another person with our germs? Is that really even an issue? Why are we worrying about our rights when OTHERS are dying? It's not about US. It's about others. Get vaccinated for the sake of yourself AND others. If you don't want to, because of "your rights", stay away from others so others can enjoy their own rights. Their right to not have their lives be endangered.

@"david75090". I'm also on the side humanity.  The question is about the best way to achieve the defeat of the virus.  

If the cure only partially cures for example but then introduces vulnerability to other problems while actually hurting a percentage of the human race then we need to promote more solutions rather than present the current vaccine as the all-in-one solution if it is in fact not. 

Clearly the vaccine is good to some degree in protecting against covid but its equally clear that it is not at present a complete solution. 
We also have to weigh its benefits against any possible adverse effects to get a clear picture of how much we are helping or not helping humanity. 

https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/new-da...ndividuals 

New data was released by the CDC showing that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant can carry detectable viral loads similar to those of people who are unvaccinated, though in the vaccinated, these levels rapidly diminish. There is also some question about how cultivatable—or viable—this virus retrieved from vaccinated people actually is. 

[dirkfansince1998]

First let me say I appreciate your reasoned replies whether I agree or not with all the points.

I gave a few examples, the issue of dissent in the medical and scientific community is much, much larger.  Remember that the Doctors and Scientists that do come out and express concerns and dissent do so at their own peril!  If you saw the video with Robert Kennedy Jr. who is involved in the legal fights you should know that for every medical professional that speaks out there are an undetermined number that have been suppressed.

Just one site, covid.daystar.com lists many credentialed doctors and scientists expressing serious concerns. I could easily list more sites with more doctors and scientists but as I said, the main reason I posted at all is on the because the issue is about freedom and liberty, choice in the tradition that that the United States was founded on.

How many Doctors and Scientists do you need before its clear to you that there is significant disagreement in the medical and scientific community on this matter, despite all efforts to suppress and strong arm people and their families?
Does that strong armed oppressive approach not bother you at all seeing it done to your fellow citizens and peers?

You already know I imagine about the former VP of Pfizer of 26 years, Dr. Michael Yeadon and his dire warnings I imagine, and of course he's been attacked and defamed endlessly.  Is it a number you need?  I don't even have to try hard to find lists like this:

57 Top Scientists and Doctors: Stop All Covid Vaccinations
57 Top Scientists and Doctors: Stop All Covid Vaccinations

I just read the entire article. Also noticed a few names that I already heard before It seems like they have two major concerns.
First of all. Lack of trial and data when it comes to the vaccine. Well. Thankfully the sample size is a lot bigger now. We have data for elderly, immune suppressed, pregnant or previoulsy infected. That shouldn´t be a concern anymore. We also know more about the highlighted risks. In case of Moderna and Pfizer for example we are talking about myocarditis and pericarditis cases spiking among younger men (16-30). Spiking means that we are talking about above average numbers compared to the general population. US data 1:100000. Israel 2.4-2.7:100000. Most of those cases are related to an undiscovered pre existing condition. Meaning that the risk to suffer from the same complications because of a COVID infection is still higher.
The mentioned risk of thrombosis and thrombocytopenia is of importance but not for the US. European AstraZeneca recommendations were adjusted because of it.  Cases spiked among women below 50-60. Countries adjusted the recommendations and continued to use the vaccine. Overall even for the "at risk" group the benefit still outweights the risk according to the data (more likely to suffer from COVID related complications than any vaccine related complications).

Second part focuses on the potential risk of new variants that are linked to the vaccine. To start with a fact. The used vaccines can in no way or form directly cause a mutation of the virus. Now we are getting deeper into the topic. I don´t think we should turn this into a cell biology/biochemics/physiology topic so I will try to keep it short.
The mentioned example of antigenetic imprinting would mean that our body wouldn´t be able to come up with the "perfect/specific" immun responce for future variants. Instead only have the "right"response for the current varriant. This by the way is considered to be one of the main reasons why we haven´t been able to develop a HIV vaccine.
But so far this is just a hypothetical and we have other scientists that are proposing the "direct" opposite. "Cross-immunity". Meaning that previous infections with other coronaviruses might help the immune response. About 15-20% of "common colds" are caused by coronaviruses and Berlin-Charite hospital just published data that backs the theory that a common cold prior to the COVID infection could lead to a better immun response.
On a side note: They didn´t even mention the most common mutation concern. Different levels of vaccine rates around the world. Even if we are all "back to normal" the situation isn´t solved as long as other parts of the world aren´t vaccinated as well.

Last part is mostly about the legislation and potential legal claims.

I do not doubt that most of the involved people are doing this for all the right reasons and can understand most of the mentioned concerns. Thankfully the last couple of month could adress most of them. But you really have the unique ability to list all the super annoying anti-vax gurus in the US. McCullough is another prime example. Quick summary. Lead a Hydroxychloroquine study. It was proven that it doesn´t work. He wasn´t having it and started his anti vaccine/other COVID-treatments agenda. According to him Hydroxychloroquine is the holy grail of COVID treatments. Even testified in front of the Texas Senate. Claiming that there is no prove of asymptomatic spread of COVID. He did a complete turnaround. From pro vaccine/treatments/social distancing to Tucker Carlsons and Ron Johnsons favorite expert that will say everything the anti-vax crowd wants to hear. Obviously still promoting Hydroxychloroquine as the only cure.

[Dahlsim]

This is the site the article first appeared

https://en-volve.com/2021/05/08/57-top-s...cinations/

I can't seem to get pictures to post - visit it yourself and see if you think the information would be impartial

@"MFFL" I pulled that list quickly and easily just to say there is plenty of disagreement and dissent on the vaccine still present in the medical science community. 

I did observe that the article and the source you linked made plenty of detailed points about their concerns and many of them echoed the ones I and others presented here. 

In conclusion, in the context of the rushed emergency-use-authorization of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, and the current gaps in our understanding of their safety, the following questions must be raised: 

• Is it known whether cross-reactive antibodies from previous coronavirus infections or vaccine206 induced antibodies may influence the risk of unintended pathogenesis following vaccination with COVID-19?
  
  
  
  
• Has the specific risk of ADE, immunopathology, autoimmunity, and serious adverse reactions been clearly disclosed to vaccine recipients to meet the medical ethics standard of patient understanding for informed consent? If not, what are the reasons, and how could it be implemented?
  
  
  
  
• What is the rationale for administering the vaccine to every individual when the risk of dying from COVID-19 is not equal across age groups and clinical conditions and when the phase 3 trials excluded the elderly, children and frequent specific conditions?
  
  
  
  
• What are the legal rights of patients if they are harmed by a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine? Who will cover the costs of medical treatment? If claims were to be settled with public money, has the public been made aware that the vaccine manufacturers have been granted immunity, and their responsibility to compensate those harmed by the vaccine has been transferred to the tax-payers?
  

[dirkfansince1998]

How did we ever survive and prosper as a country before we had all these wonderful fact checkers?

You know what came before all those fact checkers. The platforms that allowed people to voice their opinion on every single available topic within seconds and share them with the world. How did we ever survive without them.

---

Vaccinations are not the only way to address the pandemic or even to reach herd immunity.

Herd immunity is available through two options. Vaccine or mass infection. That´s it. I know my prefered option.

[Dahlsim]

 But you really have the unique ability to list all the super annoying anti-vax gurus in the US.

Hey, at least I have some unique ability. 

---

You know what came before all those fact checkers. The platforms that allowed people to voice their opinion on every single available topic within seconds and share them with the world. How did we ever survive without them.

---

Herd immunity is available through two options. Vaccine or mass infection. That´s it. I know my prefered option.

Actually a combination of the 2 works as well?  Both? 

Mass infection can be a misleading term when millions of people have been infected and had very little or even no symptoms generating their antibodies through natural immunity.

[dirkfansince1998]

In terms of "YouTube videos" I would think you know by now that the major social media platforms including YouTube, Twitter and Facebook are all into outright censorship now and cooperate with the central government. New buzz words like misinformation have been substituted to allow for what we in the United States used to call censorship. 

Now we don't call it censorship as long as the designated fact-checkers (new buzz term) have told us that what they removed from our view was misinformation.  You see how that works. Its very handy and we can all be sure that our science and data inputs are accurate after the fact checkers have removed all the nasty misinformation and banned all the bad doctors and misbehaving people in the public forum.

And now we are reaching all out conspiracy theory talk. Maybe I have to bring out the flame thrower. I have a lot of concerns when it comes to social media platforms but this is taking it way to far. Flagging or calling out misinformation is not censorship if it happens on a clearly factual basis. For example medical misinformation (made up death totals for vaccines, COVID not spreading among asymptomatic and more) or things like flat earth talk and other conspiracy theories.
What we should be concerned about is how to make sure that any potential review system isn´t abused. Or as of now is in the control of unknown interest groups.

[Dahlsim]

And now we are reaching all out conspiracy theory talk. Maybe I have to bring out the flame thrower. I have a lot of concerns when it comes to social media platforms but this is taking it way to far. Flagging or calling out misinformation is not censorship if it happens on a clearly factual basis. For example medical misinformation (made up death totals for vaccines, COVID not spreading among asymptomatic and more) or things like flat earth talk and other conspiracy theories.
What we should be concerned about is how to make sure that any potential review system isn´t abused. Or as of now is in the control of unknown interest groups.

Flagging or calling out misinformation is very different from suppressing, deleting, banning and then attacking and punishing.  
Very, very different. 

If the platforms were simply calling out and flagging that would in fact be an extension of free speech because the public could examine what was said, what evidence was or was not presented and determine if it were called out or flagged legitimately in the minds of we the people. 

The actions of suppressing is far more dangerous than any misinformation itself could ever be.  We the people never get to see the debate, the dissenting information and we are left to simply trust the fact-checkers that determine what is or is not misinformation. 

The final step is to simply make those that put out the misinformation simply, disappear.  Oppressive societies and regimes are well known for that.

[dirkfansince1998]

That offers the question. How should social platforms handle people with claims like "The vaccine is going to kill 75% of people within one year". Just let it spread? Flagg? Bann/Delete? What about hate speech. Racism, antisemitism and similar things?
As of now it is mostly handled by the platforms own rules. In some cases local legislation (mostly outside the US) can lead to law suits.

[Dahlsim]

That offers the question. How should social platforms handle people with claims like "The vaccine is going to kill 75% of people within one year". Just let it spread? Flagg? Bann/Delete? What about hate speech. Racism, antisemitism and similar things?
As of now it is mostly handled by the platforms own rules. In some cases local legislation (mostly outside the US) can lead to law suits.

History bears out and I firmly believe that Truth is it's own defense.  
To take an idea from theology if I may, You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32 

Open debate is not the killer of any society.  People in general are blessed with enough God given sense and instincts to ferret out the truth if given a free shot at all the ideas.  If you look at history and at the world as I've said before the oppressive societies whether religious or secular cannot and do not tolerate real free speech. 

If someone says the vaccine is going kill 75% in one year, people can listen to those that explain the absurdity of that claim and the majority will decide for themselves what is more reasonable.  

The same is true with Racism, Antisemitism etc.  Hitler was not able to rise to power without crushing his dissenters. He could stir up a lot of trouble but eventually he had to start suppressing and attacking those that disagreed with his ideology among the German people.  

The United States had disagreements on slavery and racism from the very inception.  The abolitionist movement largely white people against the ideals of racism and slavery of course took time but in the end it was part of what led to the Civil War and the abolition of slavery. 

Martin Luther King and other Civil right leaders were able to win the war of ideas against racism precisely because the 1st amendment in this country empowered them to speak freely while the racists had to resort to physical violence and suppression of those that exposed the fallacies of their ideas.

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

Is this thread anywhere as awesome/hilarious as the Harrison Barnes needs to preach to Luka thread?

[dirkfansince1998]

Is this thread anywhere as awesome/hilarious as the Harrison Barnes needs to preach to Luka thread?

Not nearly as good. No mentions of satanism and no tattoos.

[fifteenth]

This one is lacking in humor and evolutionary science debate

[WildArkieBoy]

This one is lacking in humor and evolutionary science debate

That deficiency is overcome by unnecessary capitalization, equating the recognition of misinformation with censorship, the denigration of fact-checking as a worthy ambition, the disapproval of YouTube in favor of DayStar, the exposing of YouTube's ties to the central government, the wonder of Amesh Adala, the Dahl and the Church of Dank Memes.

WAB

[SleepingHero]

This one is lacking in humor and evolutionary science debate

Perhaps we need Harrison to pray the covid away for Burke...? 

Eh... It's not the same. I don't think we'll ever recapture that magic of that legendary thread.