NEWS: Donnie out | Nico Harrison (Nike) as Pres/GM | Fin as VP | Dirk as Advisor

[Kammrath]

And, KAM, listen pal, do you not realize that you specialize in reading tea leaves and then speaking definitively about it!!!!????

Can you offer me an example? I want to do better if this is really the case.

[fifteenth]

Can you offer me an example? I want to do better if this is really the case.

Oh, man, well, that's a great question. But I can't go back and research at the moment. Work heated up. I'll just try to let you know if/when I notice it going forward.

[burekemde]

Really the biggest thing Cuban should be embarrassed about is the fact that two teams that were ahead of us in the 2018 draft and took worse players are nonetheless title contenders while the Mavs sit at home. It's impossible not to think that is playing a huge part in what's happened. Years of bad drafting and then betting big on KP has resulted in a supporting cast magnitudes worse than the competition.

Absolutely this. Most players and coaches and experts around the league will tell you Luka is on another level than Ayton and Young. Yet their teams have become way better due to the other decision on the other 4 positions and benches and drafting etc.

On other hand Suns and Hawks, if they dont win the title, the reason for it will mainly be that they did not drafted Luka. That is going to he be the only difference and mistake they made that prevented the title.

So what i see is that all three teams made some mistakes. Yet, the Mavs did a ton mistakes other than the Luka pick. In fact, so many that its hard to point anything good, other than the Luka pick. Despite all that we gave the best team in the league a tough time and 7 game series.

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

Absolutely this. Most players and coaches and experts around the league will tell you Luka is on another level than Ayton and Young. Yet their teams have become way better due to the other decision on the other 4 positions and benches and drafting etc.

On other hand Suns and Hawks, if they dont win the title, the reason for it will mainly be that they did not drafted Luka. That is going to he be the only difference and mistake they made that prevented the title.

I think the Suns/Booker vs. Mavs/Luka comparison is a worthwhile one to follow through on ... but let's to a real Apples to Apples comparison

The Suns are 3 seasons longer into their building process around Booker than the Mavs are with Luka.  

The Suns winning percentage with Booker vs. Mavs with Luka...

Booker Year 1:  28%
Booker Year 2:  29%
Booker Year 3:  26%
Booker Year 4:  23% 
Booker Year 5:  47% 
Booker Year 6:  71%

Luka Year 1:  46%
Luka Year 2:  57%
Luka Year 3:  58%

The Suns built a young foundation around Booker, because they pretty much sucked for 5 years straight after they drafted Booker and stockpiled lottery picks where they surrounded Booker with Ayton, Cam Johnson and Bridges (and went through the normal success rate on lottery picks with the Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender whiffs).     Then with that young foundation in place and feeling they were ready to the big high risk trade bringing in Chris Paul to put them over the top.   But this didn't happen until the Suns were in their 5th year with Booker 

On the otherhand, Luka was so good so fast that the Mavs rebuilding timeline was sped up by 2-4 years.  Drafting in the lottery wasn't feasible by Luka's 2nd year, and it pushed the timeline up where the Mavs were making their high risk gambles by Luka's 2nd year when they traded for KP to try to put the Mavs in title contention by Luka's 3rd year.   

This is why I bring up that Luka has been an absolute miracle for the Mavs, but it also pushed up the Mavs rebuilding timeline to such a degree that they haven't been able to build around him in a conventional manner.

[KillerLeft]

This is why I bring up that Luka has been an absolute miracle for the Mavs, but it also pushed up the Mavs rebuilding timeline to such a degree that they haven't been able to build around him in a conventional manner.

Big agree here. 

Usually, when teams go through a rebuild like this one, complete with lottery swings, the 2nd one doesn't work. And when it does, it takes a while to figure out that it has worked, and by the time the team knows it's time to get serious there are like 3-4 Dennis Smith Jr types sitting around. Even if those guys are only used as trade fodder (see Lakers), they help expedite the process comfortably. 

Luka was almost too good too soon for the Mavs' own good.

[fifteenth]

I think the Suns/Booker vs. Mavs/Luka comparison is a worthwhile one to follow through on ... but let's to a real Apples to Apples comparison...

 
...This is why I bring up that Luka has been an absolute miracle for the Mavs, but it also pushed up the Mavs rebuilding timeline to such a degree that they haven't been able to build around him in a conventional manner.

This is a really great post! 

The only thing I'll add is this. The Suns addition of CP was significant. The Mavs haven't been able to pull anything like that off. We've tried, but haven't added a top notch vet free agent.

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

This is a really great post! 

The only thing I'll add is this. The Suns addition of CP was significant. The Mavs haven't been able to pull anything like that off. We've tried, but haven't added a top notch vet free agent.

James Jones absolutely deserves Executive of the Year award.   I'm cheering for the Suns the rest of the way.   I want CP3 to get his title and I think the Suns are low-key one of the more tortured franchises in sports.   Loved those KJ/Chambers/Majerle/Barkley Suns teams in the 90s and they were my 2nd favorite team in the 2000s after Nash went there.

[mvossman]

Really the biggest thing Cuban should be embarrassed about is the fact that two teams that were ahead of us in the 2018 draft and took worse players are nonetheless title contenders while the Mavs sit at home. It's impossible not to think that is playing a huge part in what's happened. Years of bad drafting and then betting big on KP has resulted in a supporting cast magnitudes worse than the competition.

Those two teams are "title contenders" because neither has run into a healthy Clippers team.  We were better than Atlanta in regular season and I would take my chances against them in a playoff series.  The Suns had a great regular season, but of the top 4 teams they were least scary to me (until the Nuggets and then Jazz injuries).  Also lets not forget that a big part of the Suns success is a 38 year old point guard having a magical season.  He is obviously not a factor in their long term outlook.

Some mistakes have been made the last two years, but sometimes I think its a little overstated on here.

[Scott41theMavs]

James Jones absolutely deserves Executive of the Year award.   I'm cheering for the Suns the rest of the way.   I want CP3 to get his title and I think the Suns are low-key one of the more tortured franchises in sports.   Loved those KJ/Chambers/Majerle/Barkley Suns teams in the 90s and they were my 2nd favorite team in the 2000s after Nash went there.

Meh. I liked the early '90s Suns, but Nash onward, huge thumbs down. It's not like the Spurs, but... Considering how awful Sarver is in terms of being one of the worst cheapskates in the league, their fanbase is damn lucky that he happened to hire a fantastic front office guy to work around that. They've always seemed to have our number since drafting Booker, even when we had better records. I'll be extremely frustrated as a Mavs fan if they win the championship this year, which is not out of the question given everyone else's injuries.

[burekemde]

I think the Suns/Booker vs. Mavs/Luka comparison is a worthwhile one to follow through on ... but let's to a real Apples to Apples comparison

The Suns are 3 seasons longer into their building process around Booker than the Mavs are with Luka.  

The Suns winning percentage with Booker vs. Mavs with Luka...

Booker Year 1:  28%
Booker Year 2:  29%
Booker Year 3:  26%
Booker Year 4:  23% 
Booker Year 5:  47% 
Booker Year 6:  71%

Luka Year 1:  46%
Luka Year 2:  57%
Luka Year 3:  58%

The Suns built a young foundation around Booker, because they pretty much sucked for 5 years straight after they drafted Booker and stockpiled lottery picks where they surrounded Booker with Ayton, Cam Johnson and Bridges (and went through the normal success rate on lottery picks with the Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender whiffs).     Then with that young foundation in place and feeling they were ready to the big high risk trade bringing in Chris Paul to put them over the top.   But this didn't happen until the Suns were in their 5th year with Booker 

On the otherhand, Luka was so good so fast that the Mavs rebuilding timeline was sped up by 2-4 years.  Drafting in the lottery wasn't feasible by Luka's 2nd year, and it pushed the timeline up where the Mavs were making their high risk gambles by Luka's 2nd year when they traded for KP to try to put the Mavs in title contention by Luka's 3rd year.   

This is why I bring up that Luka has been an absolute miracle for the Mavs, but it also pushed up the Mavs rebuilding timeline to such a degree that they haven't been able to build around him in a conventional manner.

Great points absolutely. And what is the winning percentage the year before Lukas and Bookers 1st year? That would be great to add in the overview to see how much these players improved their teams first years or at least contributed to that.

Many Hawks fans now saying that Luka didnt improve Mavs and his teammates. That is absolute BS. The winning percentage the year before Luka was less and Mavs were not a playoffteam. Luka improved the team dramatically and as your chart shows each year both the team but also Lukas game has developed. Now Mavs are a regular playoffteam and I agree stronger than either Hawks or Suns. That Luka doesnt improve teammates is also complete BS. I can name THJ, Seth, Brunson, Maxi, DFS, Powell, Boban all that have played to their absolute best in their career, next to Luka. All of them becoming names in the league and gaining value. And those players love playing with Luka that much is clear.

[fifteenth]

Also lets not forget that a big part of the Suns success is a 38 year old point guard having a magical season.  He is obviously not a factor in their long term outlook.

Something that is a factor in their long term outlook: The Suns were able to add a free agent which raised the level of play of their young team. The Mavs haven't been able to do that. Not saying they won't. But this past season the Suns succeeded in a very specific way in which the Mavs did not.

[dirkfansince1998]

The mistakes happened prior to drafting Luka. It´s not like they tanked or ever tried to add young talent and/or draft picks. They added vets (Matthews, Barnes, Pachulia, DAJ...) and tried to win. Failed and went on losing streaks late in the season to secure the best possible draft position. The team just wasn´t good enough. They did not build a proper foundation. They won the last game in 16/17 and two out of three games at the end of the 18/19 season. Lost lottery positions in both cases. Just thinking about it still drives me crazy.
The 2015 first round pick was a bust (Anderson). 2016 first round pick was lost in the Rondo trade. 2017 first round pick DSJ was a bust as well but at least they turned him into KP (even though the trade probably was a mistake as well). Traded up to get Luka in 2018. Gave up the 2019 first round pick (could have kept it with a little luck and without winning the mentioned games at the end of the season).

Luka was the saving grace for a wasteland of a franchise. No assets. No young talent. Just imagine the DSJ/ WCJ nightmare.

[mvossman]

So far all we can say is that Cuban really hates making changes at the HC and GM position, but the few times he has  hey went out and got highly respected people to fill the job.    The only hires have been Rick Carlisle, who he hired outside the organization and was regarded as the best coach on the market, and Avery who revisionist history has rewritten as this Mavs/Cuban crony but actually was highly regarded at the time as an up and coming coach.    He was groomed by Pop and personally selected by Nellie to be his successor, to the point where Avery was acting as the de facto head coach while Nellie was out for extended time with a shoulder surgery.    

So if Cuban goes out, yet again, and hires outside the organization and brings in respected NBA guy to be his new GM, I wonder if people will stop and readjust their priors?  I'm guessing probably not.   People are just too addicted to their narratives about Cuban.

The issue with Cuban is not about the coach, its been about running the team.  Since the championship, he has been very vocal about "reading the CBA" and plan powder starting with the decision to break up the championship team.  There has been little question that this approach, including going after "stars" is Cuban driven.  Then we know that Nelson thought Giannis was the best player in the draft, but Cuban got cute for plan powder and traded down and we ended up with Larkin instead.  He had been heavily (overly) involved in the GM operations for a long time and this is why he is sometimes compared to Jerry and generates these "priors".

Given his (seemingly) significant involvement in GM affairs, it seems unlikely that he will be willing to give that up.  If he hires within the org (like Finely) then the perception is going to be that he will continue to be overly involved in the GM process.  If he brings in a strong outside hire (like Masai) then it will be a clear indication that he realizes he needs to step back.  I am hopeful that he pulls that trigger, but skeptical that he will.

[mvossman]

Something that is a factor in their long term outlook: The Suns were able to add a free agent which raised the level of play of their young team. The Mavs haven't been able to do that. Not saying they won't. But this past season the Suns succeeded in a very specific way in which the Mavs did not.

The Mavs could attempt to go that route as well.  They could try to sign Lowry this off season.  Its probably not the way I would go.  At the time we traded for KP, if you had asked me would I rather do that or sign an aging point guard the answer would have been easy.  Sometimes things work and sometimes they don't.  There is a lot of luck involved, and I think sometimes that gets forgotten.  It's so much easier to judge decisions in hindsight.

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

What about people's "narratives" about Donnie? RC? Luka? Size? Wingspan? Defense vs. offense? 

Out of all the things we talk about, you think people's narratives about Cuban are actually a problem? 

It seems like you're suggesting that opinions with which you disagree are narratives, to which people are addicted, born from involuntary psychology, but that your opinions are based on logic and reason. Say it ain't so, Kamm.

I buy Gump's stuff. You don't think he knows some stuff?

I buy Cato's stuff, which is being supported by just about everyone who has some contact with the organization. 

I buy my own opinion about an owner that would allow his budy to usurp his GM and coach.

And, KAM, listen pal, do you not realize that you specialize in reading tea leaves and then speaking definitively about it!!!!????

[fifteenth]

The Mavs could attempt to go that route as well.  They could try to sign Lowry this off season.  Its probably not the way I would go.  At the time we traded for KP, if you had asked me would I rather do that or sign an aging point guard the answer would have been easy.  Sometimes things work and sometimes they don't.  There is a lot of luck involved, and I think sometimes that gets forgotten.  It's so much easier to judge decisions in hindsight.

We've seen reports and attempts at trades that suggest that the Mavs have wanted to add an impactful vet for multiple offseasons and trade deadlines, but just haven't been able to pull it off.

---

Hey man, Kam is one of my favorite humans! Don't be driv'n no wedge!

[michaeltex]

Something that is a factor in their long term outlook: The Suns were able to add a free agent which raised the level of play of their young team. The Mavs haven't been able to do that. Not saying they won't. But this past season the Suns succeeded in a very specific way in which the Mavs did not.

They added a 36yo point guard with a contract many thought was untradeable who has provided the veteran leadership needed to help that team gel.

A salute to whoever took that risk.

[cow]

Something that is a factor in their long term outlook: The Suns were able to add a free agent which raised the level of play of their young team. The Mavs haven't been able to do that. Not saying they won't. But this past season the Suns succeeded in a very specific way in which the Mavs did not.

They had the foundation of talent to take the risk to acquire CP3 to push them over the top.  Take CP3 off of the Suns and that roster still dwarfs ours in talent and depth.

[JamesConway]

https://twitter.com/kennybybee/status/14...84945?s=21

Sounds horrible. Ugh.

[VintagePejav2]

https://twitter.com/kennybybee/status/14...84945?s=21

Sounds horrible. Ugh.

About what I expected. Finley for PoBO and ? for GM, then Mosley for HC.