John Collins...Our Third Star

[mvossman]

If we were to get JC, I think he and KP would probably be a good duo, provided that KP comes back hungry for DPotY again. JC is versatile enough to be whatever he needs to be on offense to make any pairing work.

On the other hand, getting JC and Turner together I think would unlock JC to be whatever he wants to be on offense and defense.

Basically the same thing I said, only in like a tenth of the words.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I don't have any doubt that Collins would improve the team, and would rather them pull that trigger than do nothing (it would certainly be an improvement over the last two off seasons) but I am just concerned that we would be firing our last big bullet for a guy that does not really address our specific problems.  If we end up getting Collins, I would greatly prefer that we figure out a way to pull the trigger for a KP for Turner trade.  That would get us our defensive anchor we desperately need, and allow Collins to replace KP offensive production with a much better fit with Luka.

No argument with the idealized Turner/JC lineup.  IF KP can’t play D alongside JC, then he certainly can’t do so next to Sabonis.  So, I’m not sure what a KP for Turner deal looks like in the real world...unfortunately.  A year from now when he’s entering his FA year?  Hmmm.

[Chicagojk]

But that's how you get him, is a max contract. That's the game with RFAs. Bogdanovic wasn't considered an 18 mil dollar player. The Bucks deal that fell through would have been much less. It was in the Kings best interest to match any offer to keep the asset, but again that's how you steal these guys away. Bogdanovic is now an important player for the Hawks.

You aren't going to get Collins for even 22/yr which already seems too high for him. The way you get him is to money whip him/Hawks and toss them an asset or two. The Mavs FO is desperate so I think its even more likely they go big or go home. This to me is their big target that's realistic.

If Mavs want to get players that are good value, those guys are out there but they will be mostly role players. Mavs have failed both getting their big targets and decent role players. I mean we had a chance to get Crowder by offering him a reasonable contract. Now he's on a team going to the Western Conference finals. But that's where we are thanks to the Mavs saving all their cap space for this summer.

 I appreciate the response.   I don't have a issue with Collins the talent, but I worry about the $.  But I think the biggest issue for me, and I should have mentioned it in my post, is that I don't think the Mavs have a lot of leverage here.   This Hawks team has a fighting chance of making it to the Eastern Conference finals as a young team.  Any offer Dallas can offer will not make Atlanta better on the court next year.  It would help their salary distribution out, but I think Atlanta has several options here.  And I don't think Dallas is one of those good options imo.   

Maybe they find a taker for Gallo.   Maybe that would be tough???   Maybe they keep Collins and see how their young rookie from USC develops.   Is he a better match with Capela or Collins?  If Collins maybe they decide to keep Collins and move Capela either next year or the following offseason?  I just don't see the Atlanta GM being pressured to lose an asset or giving away an asset for nothing.

There has been some good ideas on this thread on how this can happen, but it is pretty complicated to make it work.  And all it takes from Atlanta to blow it up is if they say no to any negotiation with Dallas.  And we all know Cuban negotiating a basketball deal is not his strong point.     Or Atlanta's agent uses a max offer from Dallas for leverage.   I just don't believe this is something the Mavs can pull off.   

Maybe I am wrong, but to me it just feels like chasing a rabbit down the wrong hole.

[Scott41theMavs]

My number one target for the offseason remains Malcolm Brogdon. Followed by Collins, Turner, Holmes, CP3 (in the unlikely event he both declines his option and is willing to move - this Suns team looks very salty, so it's hard to see why he would leave for browner pastures like the Mavs), Conley, Lowry, with Lauri way lower. 

I love IGT's offseason dream of all three of Brogdon/Collins/Turner, but I would also love to sign prime MJ in free agency and trade for prime Wilt, so...

[mvossman]

No argument with the idealized Turner/JC lineup.  IF KP can’t play D alongside JC, then he certainly can’t do so next to Sabonis.  So, I’m not sure what a KP for Turner deal looks like in the real world...unfortunately.  A year from now when he’s entering his FA year?  Hmmm.

Yes, that deal would require a third team like the Wizards.  I think someone posted a proposed trade that involved the Mavs taking on Turner and Lamb (can't remember who the Wizards gave to Pacers).  With Lamb being a dump, that seems like a reasonable trade for a devalued KP.

[StepBackJay]

 I appreciate the response.   I don't have a issue with Collins the talent, but I worry about the $.  But I think the biggest issue for me, and I should have mentioned it in my post, is that I don't think the Mavs have a lot of leverage here.   This Hawks team has a fighting chance of making it to the Eastern Conference finals as a young team.  Any offer Dallas can offer will not make Atlanta better on the court next year.  It would help their salary distribution out, but I think Atlanta has several options here.  And I don't think Dallas is one of those good options imo.   

Maybe they find a taker for Gallo.   Maybe that would be tough???   Maybe they keep Collins and see how their young rookie from USC develops.   Is he a better match with Capela or Collins?  If Collins maybe they decide to keep Collins and move Capela either next year or the following offseason?  I just don't see the Atlanta GM being pressured to lose an asset or giving away an asset for nothing.

There has been some good ideas on this thread on how this can happen, but it is pretty complicated to make it work.  And all it takes from Atlanta to blow it up is if they say no to any negotiation with Dallas.  And we all know Cuban negotiating a basketball deal is not his strong point.     Or Atlanta's agent uses a max offer from Dallas for leverage.   I just don't believe this is something the Mavs can pull off.   

Maybe I am wrong, but to me it just feels like chasing a rabbit down the wrong hole.

I think you are making it more complicated than it has to be. I am also not in love with Collins as much as the Mavs are and the Mavs may love Collins more than Hawks do to be honest.

The Hawks do not want to lose Collins but their cap sheet is going to get bloated pretty quickly now that their young core is up for new deals including Trae's max extension. The Mavs way to steal Collins is away is twofold: a) overpay him (the classic way to steal RFAs) and b) offer a trade to Atlanta. That way they back Atlanta into a corner.

If Hawks think Maxi or any of the other Mavs offers are trash they can reject the Mavs offer knowing that it still will require some maneuvering on the Mavs part to officially make that offer sheet. The Mavs might go that route calling Atlanta's bluff or they might withdraw.

Seeing as how it would be a detriment to Dallas and Atlanta both for Dallas to sign Collins to an offer sheet that is or isn't matched, I don't believe it will play out that way.

My guess is that Mavs will go the trade route or move on. I suspect even before FA opens we will know whether or not a trade is in the works or whether Collins is expected to just sign a deal with the Hawks. So in my view it really comes down to what if anything with the Hawks accept for Collins and how far will the Mavs go to get him?

With all that said, given how desperate they are this year to add a name I suspect they will go far enough to make things interesting.

[StepBackJay]

Yes, that deal would require a third team like the Wizards.  I think someone posted a proposed trade that involved the Mavs taking on Turner and Lamb (can't remember who the Wizards gave to Pacers).  With Lamb being a dump, that seems like a reasonable trade for a devalued KP.

Right basically the Wizards are sending young players and a pick or two to Pacers and the Pacers send back Turner and Lamb to the Mavs. My theory is that we love Turner more than the Pacers do. He's a good player but they might want to go a different direction with their frontcourt. It's hard for me to imagine them moving on from Sabonis but who knows.

Maxi is another player Mavs could throw into the mix to make things interesting.

All that to say it's still early. Everything I have seen or heard lately is that the Mavs aren't in dump-mode with KP as we thought they were and there doesn't appear to be a big market out there for KP anyway. I am operating under the assumption right now that he stays for at least part of next year.

[ThisIStheYear]

Count me with Dan on this one. A super athletic 23 year old who combines the best of Powell and Maxi into a single player; will shoot 40% from the three, 60% from the two, and 80% from the line; give you some reasonable rebounding; and develop into a plus defender in time — sounds perfect.  Some salary matching to give room to re-sign THJ or bring in a replacement would be great, but I’d throw a max offer out there if needed.

[StepBackJay]

I’d throw a max offer out there if needed.

My working theory is that you have to do max + Maxi and maybe more (2nd or two) to get it done bc I don't know that the Hawks are in love with the Mavs offer. Doing both the overpay + asset helps get to a deal.

[mvossman]

My working theory is that you have to do max + Maxi and maybe more (2nd or two) to get it done bc I don't know that the Hawks are in love with the Mavs offer. Doing both the overpay + asset helps get to a deal.

One of the many reasons I would prefer Ball if he is interested.  He will have to be an overpay as well, but it will unlikely need to be the max and asset cost is probably not as much (might get away with an opted in JRich and a second or two).

[dynamicalVoid]

I think Collins is more in line with "basketball player" than what we have on this team currently...we definitely need to move more in that direction, imo...

But overpaying will only set you back.   Assets plus Max?  

Man...Luka is young...shoulda drafted well.   We have to overpay for acquisitions...smh.  

I look at Charlotte and see a young team having fun together and gelling with each other....We are in shambles trying to right the ship with overpays.   

Yes...I get that Charlotte has probably had lottery picks and the talent is better to pick from.

[StepBackJay]

My feeling about this (and I could be wrong) is Mavs generally don't mess around when they want a guy. They maxed KP, Barnes, Parsons (even added some poison pill stuff this deal).

For Collins I think they are likely sending out salary in the deal for salary matching which means it won't affect the ability to keep THJ. Ya he will be overpaid, but Mavs will just be adding MLE for a couple of years so its really just managing luxury tax decisions.

[ItsGoTime]

My feeling about this (and I could be wrong) is Mavs generally don't mess around when they want a guy. They maxed KP, Barnes, Parsons (even added some poison pill stuff this deal).

For Collins I think they are likely sending out salary in the deal for salary matching which means it won't affect the ability to keep THJ. Ya he will be overpaid, but Mavs will just be adding MLE for a couple of years so its really just managing luxury tax decisions.

Them chasing JC could be a big clue in to those questioning whether or not MC will go into tax again.

[StepBackJay]

Them chasing JC could be a big clue in to those questioning whether or not MC will go into tax again.

The luxury tax problem is an interesting one because of Luka's Supermax extension which adds another 30 mil to his contract.

The Mavs have 1 more year of 2 very cheap contracts: DFS & Brunson. 

A year from now those contracts are easily going up at least 20 mil combined. Powell makes sense as a cap casualty if you have Collins since Collins is brought it to essentially replace Powell and Maxi combined.

If things go to plan Mavs will have THJ resigned + an MLE player. Mavs can do salary matching of Maxi/J Rich to go over the cap with THJ and Collins. I think the moves they make this year will probably put them right under that luxury tax threshold or in spitting distance of it.

Next year you have something like 40 mil of Doncic money (30 extra compared to this years) with not much rolling off the books. That could push you well into luxury tax even if you shed someone like Powell.

All of this is another reason why KP will likely need to get moved if he is giving you role player production at all-star prices.

Having Luka supermax, KP & Collins as max + THJ at a heft contract makes being under the tax pretty difficult. Now its reasonable to think the luxury tax line will go up some but I don't think its going to go up enough to get them under the tax.

[Mavs2021]

I guess if the Hawks win the title, we can focus our attention on Markkanen.

Also wtf, I´d like to know who the f*** the gamblers were that bet 25k and 30k on the Hawks to win the title 50-1 before the play-offs. I want that gambler as our GM.

[Hypermav]

I want that gambler as our GM.

[ThisIStheYear]

With all the injuries, the Hawks have a shot at the title.  What a bizarro year.  Never seen anything like it in the NBA.

[cow]

I guess if the Hawks win the title, we can focus our attention on Markkanen.

[MFFL]

My feeling about this (and I could be wrong) is Mavs generally don't mess around when they want a guy. They maxed KP, Barnes, Parsons (even added some poison pill stuff this deal).

That was the MBT 1.0

Who knows how we will operate going forward

[StepBackJay]

Okay ya'll btwn a new GM maybe having different priorities and the Hawks unexpected success I think we can lower expectations on the Mavs realistically getting Collins.

Hawks are a win away from the ECF. They can punt on salary cap sheet clean-up until next summer if they want to. That means they can probably resign Collins and then dump Gallo, whoever else they need to when Trae's extension kicks in. Mavs could still put them in a tough spot but we don't even know if the new GM will be high on Collins.