Mavericks 97, Sixers 111

[hakeemfan]

KL. A couple of things. I know Luka is not Dirk, but Dirk had years with worse teammates and yet he did not get into bad habits as far as being too ball greedy. So Luka should take a page from that. 

Even when Luka is off the ball you can see him barely move around most of the time and wants it back in his hands ASAP. I think he can be a great player off the ball. He is good at almost everything including shooting. He gets in trouble taking bad shots but he is a pretty good shooter when he doesn’t take bad shots and most of the bad shots seem to come after dribbling too much.

[KillerLeft]

KL. A couple of things. I know Luka is not Dirk, but Dirk had years with worse teammates and yet he did not get into bad habits as far as being too ball greedy. So Luka should take a page from that. 

Even when Luka is off the ball you can see him barely move around most of the time and wants it back in his hands ASAP. I think he can be a great player off the ball. He is good at almost everything including shooting. He gets in trouble taking bad shots but he is a pretty good shooter when he doesn’t take bad shots and most of the bad shots seem to come after dribbling too much.

Oh, for sure. He's still developing, and honestly acknowledging that he is far and away the most talented player on the team doesn't mean he should be allowed to play any way he wants. He's still developing, and I don't subscribe to the idea that he can do no wrong. I think he bears just as much burden for this season as most others involved, only for different reasons. 

My point wasn't to absolve Luka from blame, or Carlisle, for that matter. I was just confidently asserting that the team becoming a life-support system for Luka to stack up triple doubles is not in line with Carlisle's vision. I just think getting young teams to play winning basketball is more difficult than we here imagine.

[omahen]

Even when Luka is off the ball you can see him barely move around most of the time

This is not on Luka, it is Mavs offense. No one moves. The only movement offense has is the guy with ball and PnR. With or without Luka. Luka had no problems playing off ball in Real or Slovenian national team.

[KillerLeft]

Luka had no problems playing off ball in Real or Slovenian national team.

Yeah, you'd know - we wouldn't. I do know that he and Dragic were a good combo, but we've never really seen it.

[omahen]

I do know that he and Dragic were a good combo, but we've never really seen it.

That was peak Dragic then. He was PG alpha, Luka (17 years old) was beta. In Real Luka was playing next to Llull, a shoot first PG.

[dirkfansince1998]

KL. A couple of things. I know Luka is not Dirk, but Dirk had years with worse teammates and yet he did not get into bad habits as far as being too ball greedy. So Luka should take a page from that. 

Even when Luka is off the ball you can see him barely move around most of the time and wants it back in his hands ASAP. I think he can be a great player off the ball. He is good at almost everything including shooting. He gets in trouble taking bad shots but he is a pretty good shooter when he doesn’t take bad shots and most of the bad shots seem to come after dribbling too much.

I don´t think any of us disagrees with your overall idea but what is the best option right now. Brunson can somewhat create for himself, not really for others. THJ can go on random hot streaks and carry the team for a quarter. And that´s basically it when it comes to shot creation. KP is okay of the catch or after one or two dribbles but he cannot iso or post up.
I just don´t think that the Mavs have any chance of winning without a ball dominant performance from Luka right now. It´s not like others aren´t getting opportunities. It´s not like teams aren´t doubling or trapping Luka but more often than not his teammates cannot take advantage of a 4v3 situation. Richardson and Brunson are getting on ball time but the results are questionable.
Maybe it would be better for Lukas development if he gets more off ball duties but right now I just don´t see how it helps the Mavs win.

Not to mention that compared to last season Lukas usage is actually lower. He is more efficient from 3 and has added a midrange game.

[chaparral]

Just read the last few post and I'm just asking the question - dose everyone think RC is the right coach for Luka?

[KillerLeft]

Just read the last few post and I'm just asking the question - dose everyone think RC is the right coach for Luka?

I think even going down that avenue of thought is the first step towards falling into the trap of "we have to keep the star happy, so he doesn't become LeBron, AD or Harden." Ironically, that thought process IS what creates those untenable situations, imo. Instead, focus on reaching true contender status over the next 4 years, and Luka will WANT to stay. Period.

[dirkfansince1998]

Just read the last few post and I'm just asking the question - dose everyone think RC is the right coach for Luka?

My question would be if RC is still the coach he used to be. It was acknowledged by RC, Luka and most media guys that RC gave Luka more freedom to call plays and run the offense. Maybe that wasn´t the smartest decision. Probably a little bit premature.
It feels like he is out of character. Trying to be a players coach. Something he never was. That´s the Doc Rivers approach and it only works with a really talented roster.
In the past RC was more active on the side lines and kept his players on a shorter leash. People complained about the dog house but right now the Mavs could use a oldschool / hard nosed approach.

[chaparral]

My question would be if RC is still the coach he used to be. It was acknowledged by RC, Luka and most media guys that RC gave Luka more freedom to call plays and run the offense. Maybe that wasn´t the smartest decision. Probably a little bit premature.
It feels like he is out of character. Trying to be a players coach. Something he never was. That´s the Doc Rivers approach and it only works with a really talented roster.
In the past RC was more active on the side lines and kept his players on a shorter leash. People complained about the dog house but right now the Mavs could use a oldschool / hard nosed approach.

Another question is - do the other players on the team like playing Harden style rocket ball?  I tend to believe they ( the rest of the players) like playing better when Luka and Brunson are not pounding the ball all the time.

[omahen]

Another question is - do the other players on the team like playing Harden style rocket ball?  I tend to believe they ( the rest of the players) like playing better when Luka and Brunson are not pounding the ball all the time.

DFS and Kleber have zero creation. They are catch and shoot guys. When KP is playing, Luka is giving him ball all the time, when he is posting up. THJ and JRich get the ball to create. The origin of the problem is that offense is totally static. No matter who is "pounding the ball". This is not on Luka, it is the system. Looks like Mavs believe this is good offense. And to be honest, it was last season and also this season, those couple of games everyone was available. Utah offense is basically the same. Guy running a PnR and exploit mismatches or four on three situations when defense helps. Difference is that Utah shooters are great and Gobert actually is good at rolling this season. None of the Mavs is.

[KillerLeft]

DFS and Kleber have zero creation. They are catch and shoot guys. When KP is playing, Luka is giving him ball all the time, when he is posting up. THJ and JRich get the ball to create. The origin of the problem is that offense is totally static. No matter who is "pounding the ball". This is not on Luka, it is the system. Looks like Mavs believe this is good offense. And to be honest, it was last season and also this season, those couple of games everyone was available. Utah offense is basically the same. Guy running a PnR and exploit mismatches or four on three situations when defense helps. Difference is that Utah shooters are great and Gobert actually is good at rolling this season. None of the Mavs is.

I agree with this. The Mavs' offense (currently) revolves around pick and roll. Last year, the Luka/Powell pick and roll was UNBELIEVABLY lethal, and the spot up guys made the defense pay for helping off of them. This year, there is no Powell, so no pick and roll. Fewer wide-open, in-rhtyhm, predictable (the rhythm and predictable parts being key) shots for guys to get comfortable. 

Now, what confuses some people is that this offense is NOT like Carlisle offenses during other good Mavs runs. There is always an element of pick and roll involved, but he has never leaned so heavily into it in the past. I'll say this again, only differently: be careful not to assume the reasons for this. I believe it's partly about trends, partly about the quality of the roster, and partly about Luka being a work in progress in some areas. I don't think Carlisle wants to be the Houston Rockets. I really, really don't. I DO think he's trying to win now as he teaches Luka long term, which might involve playing into some bad habits, back to Hakeem's original point. When the wins don't come, it's easy to look for some part of this topic to second guess.

[mavsluvr]

Part of the problem might (might) be that Luka is just more comfortable with the ball in his hands and not quite experienced enough yet to make a significant impact moving without the ball. Part of the problem might be that the combination of supporting players isn't adequate for the offense to be successful without a star-level threat handling. 

I think these are likely factors. 


I don't think Luka is intentionally hogging the ball out of a desire to run up his triple-double total. He's about winning, and is smart enough and talented enough to learn how to play off the ball, to the extent he doesn't already know. 

It seems like the main issue is that the team is prioritizing wins now, and with the supporting cast being what it is, the game-by-game results are usually maximized by Luka dominating the ball. He is a willing passer, but his teammates often don't take advantages of the open shots he creates, and when they use a secondary ball handler, none of the guys can orchestrate the offense anywhere close to the level Luka does. 

I'm thinking longer term (meaning after this season), they ought to make a concerted effort to get a high-quality ball handling back court mate for him. Many of the top teams in the league have such duos, and that can be their model. For now, they can try Brunson, but I fear he is too limited and too much of a defensive liability to form part of a Steph-Klay type combo. Yes, I know they can cook up schemes to try to hide him, but it would be much better to have a guy who doesn't have a general weakness like that. If I'm wrong about JB, praise be. 

The one-man Luka show is not sustainable against high-quality opponents. So, they are going to have to develop the discipline to share the load if they want to be a contender. Maybe they punt this season, since there doesn't seem to be a likely candidate to help him out. But then it's something they need to address in the offseason in the worst way. Imho.

[chaparral]

DFS and Kleber have zero creation. They are catch and shoot guys. When KP is playing, Luka is giving him ball all the time, when he is posting up. THJ and JRich get the ball to create. The origin of the problem is that offense is totally static. No matter who is "pounding the ball". This is not on Luka, it is the system. Looks like Mavs believe this is good offense. And to be honest, it was last season and also this season, those couple of games everyone was available. Utah offense is basically the same. Guy running a PnR and exploit mismatches or four on three situations when defense helps. Difference is that Utah shooters are great and Gobert actually is good at rolling this season. None of the Mavs is.

So the Mavs need a older more experienced PG and a defensive minded P&R C.  Oh, and a few wings that can create and play better D.  Sounds like a team that is a borderline high loto/8 or 7th seed.

[Dahlsim]

The one-man Luka show is not sustainable against high-quality opponents. 

NBA never really worked on a 1 star model and especially now with players forming super teams on top of it all, its not an option no matter who the main star is.   Lebron James didn't get his team to the playoffs just a season before until Anthony Davis was brought in. 

KP was brought in to be the 2nd star. He has to be that or they have reboot in a major way. 
You can't just jettison the guy while he's in a down slump and expect him to fetch much back either.  

Nurse the Unicorn back to health if at all possible.  That's their best option. If that works, then look to trade him while he looks like a star again.

[omahen]

So the Mavs need a older more experienced PG and a defensive minded P&R C.  Oh, and a few wings that can create and play better D.  Sounds like a team that is a borderline high loto/8 or 7th seed.

I have been preaching for something like that for some time Brunson looks nice lately. KP is of course the key. If he can improve his mobility to last season level, this team would look very differently. In that case, I would dare say this team is one good vet away from contending. 

If KP is lost cause, than Mavs are of course far far away. I actually don't even want to think about this scenario

[hakeemfan]

@"dirkfansince1998" WRT Luka feeling he had to carry the load, I personally don’t care about wins and losses. Bad habits are very difficult to break.  If he plays hard on defense, and plays a generally unselfish game on offense and the team loses, I am fine. It is not as if doing it is his way is working great. Also as mentioned I just don’t like that style. Maybe just my age showing up. 

Great discussion guys. Enjoyed reading all the different responses.

[ThisIStheYear]

The first time Luka got a triple double, he never even heard of it. He doesn’t care about triple doubles. He’s an efficient player.  Just needs a better supporting cast, including a good roll man.