2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[Tikkun Olam]

I agree with Dan about KP's availability issue. How many titles would Magic, MJ or LeBron have won if they played in 60% of their teams games during their careers ? Beyond that playing with someone you cannot depend on is one of the hardest things a player has to do.

[KillerLeft]

Lots of threads discussing KP. Lots of good points being made on both sides of the issue. 

For me, it's super simple:

1) I believe, with everything I've got, that to be a contender you need at least a good, clutch defense. You can be an offensive team, but you can't just ignore the defensive side of the ball. You need to be far above average, I'd say. 

2) In ANY era of NBA basketball, regardless of how the game is officiated and what offensive actions are in vogue, the defense must be built around your center. In ANY era, this requires some combination of size, length, strength, toughness, physicality, foot speed, conditioning (fans ignore that one - running the floor is the first box to check, and where the Whitesides and Drummonds of the world fall flat) and agility. The percentages needed for each category might change from era to era, but all of those attributes are always requisite. 

3) KP has shown consistently since coming here that he has size, length and SOMETIMES conditioning. Yes, the conditioning will improve with extended health and prep time, but who among us actually believes he'll ever be able to experience that? I believed when the trade happened that he'd have PLUS foot speed and agility, but that has not been the case in Dallas, sadly. As far as toughness, strength and physicality are concerned, he's a zilch, imo. 

4) SO...by my eye test, KP is simply a BAD defender for his position, which is the most important position, defensively. 

Think about the Dirk era Mavs. When Bradley was the center, they were an interesting young team with some intriguing players, having no chance of ever making anything happen deep in the playoffs. Then, they got Dampier, and for all the grief he took, he elevated the team's prospects significantly and helped them become a perennial top 5 team in the West, basically. But, even he was ultimately a big part of what held them back (I used to argue against this, but it was true). Then, they got TY, who was a gift from God who allowed everything else to fall into place for Dirk and for we, the fans. That's three concretely evident levels of the team to which we can point, each telling part of the Dirk era story. 

All of KP's truthers are talking about offense. 20/10...30/12. I don't care. I can TOTALLY see him having great offensive stretches in the future with the Mavs or some other team, but it simply does not matter. He's never going to be dominant in the way Duncan, Embiid, Hakeem and others have been. I'm not making a point about his play style, either. I just don't view him as a guy who creates shots for other players. 

And even if he was, that still wouldn't convince me. He's STILL a bad defender, which is the thing I just don't think you can accept from your big man if you're trying to win. You can hide Dirk, Nash...even Trae Young. It's difficult, and it blows, but it's doable. But hiding your center on defense? Nah, my guys. The center should BE your defense. Blocks don't impress me. Being in position to discourage the opponent from doing what they think they're good at, forcing them to do things that make them uncomfortable - that's what impresses me. 

Going back to those three Mavs centers, Chandler, Dampier and Bradley: On defense, which of them does KP remind you of the most?

[Kammrath]

to be a contender you need at least a good, clutch defense

100% agree.


Where I diverge from you is this:

I think KP's defensive slippage is a NEW thing, like real new. This year is the first time in his whole career he is not a defensive plus. The reason I loved him before he was drafted and the reason I loved the Mavs trading for him was NOT his offense, it was his defense. 

His D has suddenly gone AWOL. As he said in the interview yesterday, it is weird for him this year because mentally he is seeing how he is supposed to be reacting defensively and what play to make but his body isn't responding. He seems confused by it but optimistic it will return with more time.

I think the watershed questions on KP are these two big ones:

1) Will his D recover to previous levels? 

2) Even if it does, what is his fit truly with Luka, RC, the locker room, and the Mavs organizational culture?


I am anxious his D will never return, but I am not certain on that....so a fence-rider on question one and willing to be patient with that. But this year I have come to decisively believe that question two is a negative, that he is NOT a fit with Luka, RC, the locker room, and the organization. 

I think it is time to move on from KP, BUT I would want to rehab his value and image as much as possible before making a move...so I would wait till the summer unless a hell of a deal comes knocking.

[Jason Terry]

Good points KL. I like the look back into mavs history angle. I still can’t think of Dampier without thinking of the exact moment i knew we weren’t good enough with that squad: Shaq, “im not afraid of no Erika Dampier”. Boom, it was over. 

Frustrating part with KP is that he showed many games last season that he has the ability to be a rim protector. Yet it seems that he displays those abilities only when he feels like it. Maybe it’s physically he can’t do it that often? Maybe mental? Regardless, a player’s defense should be there every single night. Time to move on and put him in the pile of thrown away centers

[ItsGoTime]

Lots of threads discussing KP. Lots of good points being made on both sides of the issue. 

For me, it's super simple:

1) I believe, with everything I've got, that to be a contender you need at least a good, clutch defense. You can be an offensive team, but you can't just ignore the defensive side of the ball. You need to be far above average, I'd say. 

2) In ANY era of NBA basketball, regardless of how the game is officiated and what offensive actions are in vogue, the defense must be built around your center. In ANY era, this requires some combination of size, length, strength, toughness, physicality, foot speed, conditioning (fans ignore that one - running the floor is the first box to check, and where the Whitesides and Drummonds of the world fall flat) and agility. The percentages needed for each category might change from era to era, but all of those attributes are always requisite. 

3) KP has shown consistently since coming here that he has size, length and SOMETIMES conditioning. Yes, the conditioning will improve with extended health and prep time, but who among us actually believes he'll ever be able to experience that? I believed when the trade happened that he'd have PLUS foot speed and agility, but that has not been the case in Dallas, sadly. As far as toughness, strength and physicality are concerned, he's a zilch, imo. 

4) SO...by my eye test, KP is simply a BAD defender for his position, which is the most important position, defensively. 

Think about the Dirk era Mavs. When Bradley was the center, they were an interesting young team with some intriguing players, having no chance of ever making anything happen deep in the playoffs. Then, they got Dampier, and for all the grief he took, he elevated the team's prospects significantly and helped them become a perennial top 5 team in the West, basically. But, even he was ultimately a big part of what held them back (I used to argue against this, but it was true). Then, they got TY, who was a gift from God who allowed everything else to fall into place for Dirk and for we, the fans. That's three concretely evident levels of the team to which we can point, each telling part of the Dirk era story. 

All of KP's truthers are talking about offense. 20/10...30/12. I don't care. I can TOTALLY see him having great offensive stretches in the future with the Mavs or some other team, but it simply does not matter. He's never going to be dominant in the way Duncan, Embiid, Hakeem and others have been. I'm not making a point about his play style, either. I just don't view him as a guy who creates shots for other players. 

And even if he was, that still wouldn't convince me. He's STILL a bad defender, which is the thing I just don't think you can accept from your big man if you're trying to win. You can hide Dirk, Nash...even Trae Young. It's difficult, and it blows, but it's doable. But hiding your center on defense? Nah, my guys. The center should BE your defense. Blocks don't impress me. Being in position to discourage the opponent from doing what they think they're good at, forcing them to do things that make them uncomfortable - that's what impresses me. 

Going back to those three Mavs centers, Chandler, Dampier and Bradley: On defense, which of them does KP remind you of the most?

So stop trying to make him into a C and make him into the 4 and get a C that has those things. Favors would have been a godsend for us, Marcus Morris, I think is the prototypical guy that SHOULD be next to KP. Get someone with all the Tyson Chandler C abilities you listed (which he wasn't terribly great in the strength category, but Haywood made up for that) and figure out a game plan that works for WHO WE HAVE ON THE ROSTER.

[KillerLeft]

I think the watershed questions on KP are these two big ones:

1) Will his D recover to previous levels? 

2) Even if it does, what is his fit truly with Luka, RC, the locker room, and the Mavs organizational culture?

I'm not entirely sure I buy the "previous levels" argument, but I respect your analysis of the numbers, and I don't have enough pre-Mavs viewing of him to bring a strong opinion to the table. I was disappointed with his D last season here, but not THIS disappointed. 

Anyway, my take on your point above is that while I'm right there with you about #2 being an actual thing and not just a tinfoil hat theory, I think if #1 resolves favorably they will start winning. If they start winning, #2 will take care of itself, so if I believed #1 had a chance of working out, I wouldn't be very worried about #2. I hope that makes sense. 

But, #1 isn't going to resolve favorably, imo. Even if you're correct and this is a matter of regaining form, I don't find it likely. He has sustained a ton of injuries, the kind that have a cumulative effect. He's going to slow down at a younger age than other players, and I believe we're already seeing that happen. So, it's not only a matter of recovering from whatever the latest injury might be and regaining confidence. I think each new situation permanently lessens his potential, athletically. His conditioning might very well be affected by this latest injury, but damn - he has looked like a statue out there. I just don't think it's 100% about getting into shape. My opinion. 

I thought he was going to be a fast, quick player. Someone with the kind of defensive tools WCS has, only with a far superior and more innate understanding of how to play basketball well consistently. He has not been that guy. He's STIFF and SLOW. He doesn't move much better than Boban, and that's saying something. 

I know everyone thinks I'm a negative Nancy about all of this lately, and I'm sorry. I'm just not hopeful about this particular player AT ALL. I will try not to beat everyone over the head with it, but it's difficult, because anything I try to imagine as an interesting talking point eventually leads me back to this topic. I really feel like the team is stuck as long as he's on the roster.

---

So stop trying to make him into a C and make him into the 4 and get a C that has those things.

So, he's too slow to play center well, and you believe playing him at forward, expecting him to chase Giannis, Kawhi and Lebron around will help? 

I suppose it's worth a try, but I'm not trying to "make him into a C." That's just what he is, I think. I think these issues get exponentially worse if he's played at any other position. 

But at this point, I suppose it's time to try anything.

[Kammrath]

He has sustained a ton of injuries, the kind that have a cumulative effect. He's going to slow down at a younger age than other players, and I believe we're already seeing that happen. So, it's not ONLY a matter of recovering from whatever the latest injury might be and regaining confidence. I think each new situation permanently lessens his potential, athletically.

I get this. And like I said I am very nervous about his D being long gone, along with the agility he used to have. I am only a fence rider because of sample size....but my gut says you are right.

As far as chemistry issues, I think even if the Mavs win it will get better on the surface, but I don't trust KP in this situation when adversity hits and championships runs are full of them. I just don't think he is a guy you want to "go to war with." Again, just my ignorant read as a fan far on the outside of the inner workings.

[hakeemfan]

KL...KP was fast, blocking a lot of shots and anchoring the defense in stretches last year. The ability is there. Maybe he has still not fully recovered from his injury. However he just cannot seem to stay healthy.  If your team cannot count on you to stay healthy then any discussions on talent is moot. My hope is for him to play well for a good stretch, the Mavs not get deluded by that, and trade him at a relatively high price.

[dynamicalVoid]

Lots of threads discussing KP. Lots of good points being made on both sides of the issue. 

For me, it's super simple:

1) I believe, with everything I've got, that to be a contender you need at least a good, clutch defense. You can be an offensive team, but you can't just ignore the defensive side of the ball. You need to be far above average, I'd say. 

2) In ANY era of NBA basketball, regardless of how the game is officiated and what offensive actions are in vogue, the defense must be built around your center. In ANY era, this requires some combination of size, length, strength, toughness, physicality, foot speed, conditioning (fans ignore that one - running the floor is the first box to check, and where the Whitesides and Drummonds of the world fall flat) and agility. The percentages needed for each category might change from era to era, but all of those attributes are always requisite. 

3) KP has shown consistently since coming here that he has size, length and SOMETIMES conditioning. Yes, the conditioning will improve with extended health and prep time, but who among us actually believes he'll ever be able to experience that? I believed when the trade happened that he'd have PLUS foot speed and agility, but that has not been the case in Dallas, sadly. As far as toughness, strength and physicality are concerned, he's a zilch, imo. 

4) SO...by my eye test, KP is simply a BAD defender for his position, which is the most important position, defensively. 

Think about the Dirk era Mavs. When Bradley was the center, they were an interesting young team with some intriguing players, having no chance of ever making anything happen deep in the playoffs. Then, they got Dampier, and for all the grief he took, he elevated the team's prospects significantly and helped them become a perennial top 5 team in the West, basically. But, even he was ultimately a big part of what held them back (I used to argue against this, but it was true). Then, they got TY, who was a gift from God who allowed everything else to fall into place for Dirk and for we, the fans. That's three concretely evident levels of the team to which we can point, each telling part of the Dirk era story. 

All of KP's truthers are talking about offense. 20/10...30/12. I don't care. I can TOTALLY see him having great offensive stretches in the future with the Mavs or some other team, but it simply does not matter. He's never going to be dominant in the way Duncan, Embiid, Hakeem and others have been. I'm not making a point about his play style, either. I just don't view him as a guy who creates shots for other players. 

And even if he was, that still wouldn't convince me. He's STILL a bad defender, which is the thing I just don't think you can accept from your big man if you're trying to win. You can hide Dirk, Nash...even Trae Young. It's difficult, and it blows, but it's doable. But hiding your center on defense? Nah, my guys. The center should BE your defense. Blocks don't impress me. Being in position to discourage the opponent from doing what they think they're good at, forcing them to do things that make them uncomfortable - that's what impresses me. 

Going back to those three Mavs centers, Chandler, Dampier and Bradley: On defense, which of them does KP remind you of the most?

I agree with what you have posted...and I will take it a step further...

I would never Max a big with slow feet/unathletic in todays NBA.

[Jason Terry]

One point that doesn’t get enough mention: $.........KP got his max deal. Now everything is different. Money can change people

[cow]

KP Stock Watch:  2/27 vs Nets ++

[ThisIStheYear]

I’ve always thought KP was overrated on offense and underrated on defense. But the defense this year has mostly been brutal. My hope is it’s just conditioning. My fear is that teams have figured out how to exploit his lack of agility. It could be scheme also. Tonight may be the best I’ve seen him on D this season though, so maybe it’s been his back all alone.

[Omega_Supreme]

I am not going to get excited about this game when it comes to KP. Jordan played 13 minutes and the Nets were under manned. 

We need to see KP do this against teams with Legit big men. 

He plays against Vucevic on Monday and that will be a good test

[SleepingHero]

and includes a Woj quote about how CREDIBLE Spears is: 

Didn't know that Spears went all the way back with Woj. Only really followed him around 2013 till now and for me he's mostly been wrong than right on his rumors. And has almost never been correct about the Mavs. 


Like Kamm said, there might be a 3rd party here that wants KPs name in the spotlight, whether that be too force his way out of DAL or because said 3rd party wants KP bad. 

Also:

here is a link that [will surely get ignored]

 If you're trying to imply that I ignore evidence for the sake of my own narrative please try again.

[meistermatze]

Great discussion on KP with excellent points, especially made by Killer and Kamm. The only thing I disagree with is that we take it as a fact that the Mavs are shopping KP actively. I mean so far it's just a rumour "confirmed" by Spears. I still think it's a leap.

On the other hand: KP being visibly frustrated last night and shaking his head late in the game on the bench when Powell got inserted into the game and not him (that was my interpretation, Idk if accurate) made me believe this narrative more. I am sure there is something going on and by now i strongly believe, all the KP issues are there as speculated.

[vfromlmf]

Not surprisingly, last night was KP’s best game of the year. He needed to show something on both sides of the ball and he did. 

Not sure what to make of it though. Certainly a game like this reminds everyone, KP is still the unicorn. He’s capable of anchoring a defense while giving you an easy, efficient 20+ PPG. And if he’s traded, it will take a whale of a package. 

Seems really weird how much he played out of the post—more than I can remember in a Mavs uniform. Such a big change in usage after the layoff tells me there’s definitely some stuff going on behind the scenes. 

Also the attitude. In a way, I like it. KP has always been an alpha dog. But it could also be a bad thing.  KP had problems with his minutes distribution and finally took his complaints to the media. Then last night you see him visibly frustrated with Carlisle. Combine that with kicking a chair and that ridiculous logo shot and it’s clear he’s frustrated with Doncic. The little on and off court tantrums aren’t a good look.

[StepBackJay]

Last night should give us all hope that KP is going to get better which obviously makes him more useful to the Mavs both as a player and a potential trade asset.

[StepBackJay]

My counterpoint to Kamm and KL is that most of the championships we have seen for a very long time are teams with at least 2 top 10 / top 5 superstars that just can't be stopped in a 7 games series.

The Raptors, Mavericks-type championships are few and far between. The Spurs are the only team with sustained success over a long time playing team basketball but you could argue that a) they still had at least Superstar in Duncan and a very good big 3 as well as b) perhaps the best NBA coach of all time.

So all that to say I understand the point about having a defensive center. I like Wiseman for that reason. But then you have the Lakers where they don't need a center because AD plays center in crunch time, the Warriors who would play Draymond at center during crunch time have a lot of success.

I can see why the MBT are obsessed with collecting stars because its the proven model for winning a championship. Mavs have Luka which is a great start. We have all hoped that KP can be that second guy and then somehow land a third guy through FA or trade.

[StepBackJay]

I am not going to get excited about this game when it comes to KP. Jordan played 13 minutes and the Nets were under manned. 

We need to see KP do this against teams with Legit big men. 

He plays against Vucevic on Monday and that will be a good test

For me judging KP's defensive performance against a 1-1 matchup like that is not the issue. Vucevic will get his points and defending him is a team effort so its KP + help defense which will try to bother Vuc. That being said if Vuc easily gets inside position in the paint over and over then that's on KP.

The bigger issue that we have all flagged with KP is when PnR is run against him the other team is scoring way too easily. That's what will get you beat so I want to see how he looks next time that happens.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Interesting from The Athletic's Warrior's site on fit of Wiseman.  The point is the way they play, they may not ever fully develop the young big.  He's got potential to be a star, but all GS wants from it's bigs is not much more than what the Mav's used to ask Powell to do.  They talk about Wiseman's thirst to score (he's not a passive big at all).  Kerr moved him to the bench in January at least partially to let him be more of a focal point when he's in the game.


"Meanwhile, James Wiseman has this incredible talent at an uncommon size. He wants to show it off and frequently does. Right now, per 36 minutes, Wiseman is averaging 21.3 points, 10.3 rebounds and 2.2 blocks on 51/41/64 shooting. The main reason we’re citing “per 36 minutes” here is because this impressive individual stat line has not exactly corresponded to the level of team success that ensures the minutes load of a starter."


https://theathletic.com/2409304/2021/02/...riors-nba/