Call me crazy, but...

[fifteenth]

It's pretty much acknowledged in the NBA that you need two stars to win a championship. Dirk was an anomoly. And three stars is not unusual. 

Let's look at just champions. And I'll consider guys like KP, Bosh, Green, Thompson as a step down from the guys I'm listing below. 

LeBron/Davis
KD/Steph
Kawhi/Duncan
LeBron/Wade
Pierce/Garnett (this one is iffy, but 3 guys with those two and Ray Allen that were choosing the team concept)
Kobe/Shaq
MJ/Pippen (I know Pippen was always the beta, but during part of their run he was considered a top 5 player in the NBA)

[omahen]

It's pretty much acknowledged in the NBA that you need two stars to win a championship. Dirk was an anomoly. And three stars is not unusual. 

Let's look at just champions. And I'll consider guys like KP, Bosh, Green, Thompson as a step down from the guys I'm listing below. 

LeBron/Davis
KD/Steph
Kawhi/Duncan
LeBron/Wade
Pierce/Garnett (this one is iffy, but 3 guys with those two and Ray Allen that were choosing the team concept)
Kobe/Shaq
MJ/Pippen (I know Pippen was always the beta, but during part of their run he was considered a top 5 player in the NBA)

Totally agree, you need more good players. But there is always one alpha star, than the beta star and so on. I think it is in our nature. And it is far from just the on court value or impact. Let's look at your examples.

LeBron is clearly a bigger star than Davis. How it will play long term it is to be seen, but mother nature might take care of that, as LeBron will start declining at one point. 

Steph was bigger star in the eyes of the fans as KD. Eventually KD wanted "his" team, not be a "second fiddle" in the Curry one.

Duncan was bigger star than Kawhi even if Kawhi was better on court. Kawhi was still building up his star status in SA while Duncan was deep in decline.

LeBron was bigger star than Wade and it worked with Bosh because he accepted the third star role.

Kobe/Shaq clearly fell apart because the team was too small for their egos, imho.

MJ/Pippen. It is not really important if Pippen was considered top 5. Without the question, Jordan was all the time THE guy in Chicago. Without a doubt, others were just tagging along. It is not just about the on court stuff.

Several equal players working for team success would work either if roles (who is bigger star than the other) are clearly defined or if none of them is a star. But if we like it or not, both Giannis and Luka are stars as it is now. One will have to accept he is less of a star as he was, because I think it is impossible to keep equal star status in media.

Saying all that. Luka is like a top 5 star in the league, as it is (being a star is not just about on court value). I think he is much bigger star than Giannis. So as far as he is considered, (if he comes to Mavs) he might bring more on court, but world around him would talk about Luka more.

[KillerLeft]

@"omahen" raises a good point. 

For Luka's part, I don't get the sense that he'd mind giving away some of the limelight (could be dead wrong about that, it's just the sense I have, so far). But to decide to come here, Giannis would have to be ok being perceived as the 2nd best player for a franchise. 

It's hard for us to understand, because anyone reading this would gladly take the veteran minimum to be the 15th man on a pro team, but I think it's harder for some of these guys to change the way they see themselves as basketball players than we realize. 

If Giannis is smart enough, he'll see the benefits and not just the downside, but we just don't know what his priorities will be.

[omahen]

If Giannis is smart enough, he'll see the benefits and not just the downside, but we just don't know what his priorities will be.

I think it is not that simple. I think even if you are a total team player, your ego would suffer. One day everything is about you, next day you played well next to Luka. And please mind, Gianis is not a stat paddler on a losing team. Giannis is an alpha dog of the league. All these players also have a ton of advisers, agents, family members and entourage speaking in their ears. Will these guys not say day in and out, how he should be the star and not Luka? 

I am not saying it is impossible, but it will certainly not be easy.

I don't get the sense that he'd mind giving away some of the limelight

It's not a problem giving away some of the limelight. LeBron, as good king as he is, gratiously gave some of his limelight to Davis. Luka is not like LeBron. I am sure he would have no problem if he is not a star. But media influence everyone, imho.

[fifteenth]

omehan, I agree with your breakdown, but will add a couple of comments.

Davis decided that he wanted to play with another star because he wasn't getting anywhere by himself. Does Giannis's defeats in the playoffs make him consider that? Wade, after having his own success, knew he was asking a bigger star than he to come to his team. Can Giannis be like Wade and volunteer to play with a bigger star after having some of his own success? I know KD left, but don't forget that he actually chose to play with Steph. And Shaq and Kobe may have blown up, but I'd take the blow up if all those championships come first!

Ultimately, to some extent, I'm expressing the way I'd like for the world to work, but I'm accustomed to coming to the realization that I'm from another planet. So I guess what I'm going to hope for is that Luka and Giannis (if he comes here) decide to that they're from another planet also.

---

because anyone reading this would gladly take the veteran minimum to be the 15th man on a pro team

[omahen]

Davis decided that he wanted to play with another star because he wasn't getting anywhere by himself. Does Giannis's defeats in the playoffs make him consider that?

Totally agree, that is a big question. From his perspective it has to come to from - "put better players around ME" to "I am not good enough to win (it all) on my own." That is huge for two time MVP. 

This was hillarious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP2vRDMaB2g

[ItsGoTime]

One of the reasons I like the idea of Hayward and Harris here is they are really good players that are just below that “star status”. That allows Luka and KP to be the “Duo stars” while guys like Hayward or Harris can just be who they are. If I have it wrong on Hayward or Harris and they want to continue to be paid like they are, then I retract my statement.

[michaeltex]

I agree with the 2-star theory. Although we may talk about them together, privately most agree on who's #1 and who's #2 in each paring. 

We reference the 2011 Mavs only having Dirk as a single star, but there was a different dynamic at work. While re-watching the playoff run, I noticed that the #2 star role was shared by 3-4 players. JET, Kidd, Marion, maybe JJB and another one or two, all filled the #2 role at different times and different games. If you watch, you'll find times where JET took over a game for a while. There were times when Marion carried the team with both scoring and defense. Kidd's BBIQ was on display for all. This shared role was maybe the most special aspect of the team. Everyone was encouraged to step up if the opportunity presented and not just wait for Dirk to make it happen. Maybe there wasn't a single #2, but there were a lot of #2.5s.

All that said, we have a good 1-2 teamup with Luka and KP. When healthy, maybe as good as any of the others. The Mavs need to strengthen the base and continue to gel. They don't need to turn over 40% of their roster to chase a possible #2 because they already have that.

[omahen]

I agree with the 2-star theory. Although we may talk about them together, privately most agree on who's #1 and who's #2 in each paring. 

We reference the 2011 Mavs only having Dirk as a single star, but there was a different dynamic at work. While re-watching the playoff run, I noticed that the #2 star role was shared by 3-4 players. JET, Kidd, Marion, maybe JJB and another one or two, all filled the #2 role at different times and different games. If you watch, you'll find times where JET took over a game for a while. There were times when Marion carried the team with both scoring and defense. Kidd's BBIQ was on display for all. This shared role was maybe the most special aspect of the team. Everyone was encouraged to step up if the opportunity presented and not just wait for Dirk to make it happen. Maybe there wasn't a single #2, but there were a lot of #2.5s.

All that said, we have a good 1-2 teamup with Luka and KP. When healthy, maybe as good as any of the others. The Mavs need to strengthen the base and continue to gel. They don't need to turn over 40% of their roster to chase a possible #2 because they already have that.

We must not link term star stricktly with on field performance, imho. Lets say 2018/19, Luka rookie season. Dirk was clearly number 1 star in Dallas. It was his team, no question. He was far from best player on the court.

[khaled1987]

The biggest hit a super star takes isn't winning a ring, after that all criticisms are easier.
That was the case for Lebron and even KD. You can't tell me that KD legacy now is inferior to what he was in June 2016

What is worse, is leaving your team and not winning a chip as superstar,  that would relegate you into tier 2 or 3 HOF like DHoward or Melo, Giannis is aiming for more.
If he leaves he can't take risks, he should go to a team that he knows that they are hands down the best team in the league,  I think Dallas with Luka are his best chance, unless he joins Kawhi or Lebron in LA which I don't see happening, Miami is close 2nd, can't see Raptors as candidates 


Regarding Luka & Giannis: This will be Giannis team from league perspective,  but will be Luka's ream from Dallas fans perspective. Just like KD/Curry with GSW or Lebron/Wade with heat.

I think this will be enough for both, Luka played as 2nd star ar keast for 2 years in RM, and also as 2nd star/ball handler with Dragic in NT. Giannis took years to develop into star and franchise players, those guys are simply already used to share spotlights

[KillerLeft]

Regarding Luka & Giannis: This will be Giannis team from league perspective,  but will be Luka's ream from Dallas fans perspective. Just like KD/Curry with GSW or Lebron/Wade with heat.

So, the above is something I vehemently disagree with, and goes a long way towards proving Omahen's point, imo.

I don't think there's a single person on Earth who'd view this as Giannis's team after watching those two play together for a year. I think Luka is the much more skilled offensive player, and the style of play would be set up so that Luka was very clearly the driving force of the team. In the two scenarios above, the incoming player was unquestionably the most talented player. While I think Giannis is the very definition of a GAME CHANGER, I don't anticipate that him being here would detract from Luka's shine one bit. The reverse of that happening is a real possibility, for those who care about such things.

[ItsGoTime]

Regarding Luka & Giannis: This will be Giannis team from league perspective,  but will be Luka's ream from Dallas fans perspective. Just like KD/Curry with GSW or Lebron/Wade with heat.

So, the above is something I vehemently disagree with, and goes a long way towards proving Omahen's point, imo.

I don't think there's a single person on Earth who'd view this as Giannis's team after watching those two play together for a year. I think Luka is the much more skilled offensive player, and the style of play would be set up so that Luka was very clearly the driving force of the team. In the two scenarios above, the incoming player was unquestionably the most talented player. While I think Giannis is the very definition of a GAME CHANGER, I don't anticipate that him being here would detract from Luka's shine one bit. The reverse of that happening is a real possibility, for those who care about such things.

Interesting take. I think if all you look at is the offensive side of the ball then Luka would probably be the one leading the show. If you look at both sides of the equation, Giannis is the better player. Who is the most vocal on the team would become the tipping point IMO, and in all honesty, I could see KP being that.

[KillerLeft]

@"ItsGoTime" You make some good points. Here are some mild retorts:

What FANS most respond to is offensive creation. That's just part of the "it" factor, and really always has been. That's not to say that hardcore fans might not decide they like a great defensive presence and call that guy their favorite, but I don't think it's Giannis's defense that has won him two MVP's and put the Bucks on national TV so often, even though as you rightly point out, what he brings to the table on that end might be the most valuable thing about him. 

I would probably agree with you that Giannis is the better player RIGHT NOW, but it's CLOSE. I'll confidently stand by my statement that Luka is "on the way" to becoming the bigger star. Can you honestly say that Giannis, if drafted two years ago at #3 by Atlanta at the Mavs' request, would've elevated the team THIS much, THIS soon? It's possible, but man, I don't see it. I think Luka is really, really special. Giannis would definitely bring some more eyeballs to the team (they'll end up peeing the Mavs anyway, eventually) but I think when those eyeballs start watching the team a couple of times per week like we do it will be impossible for them to deny the greatness that is Luka mf Doncic. 

That's a good point about KP. I really enjoyed that youtube documentary series "sounds from the base line" that documented the Mavs' season, and there were signs that he is sort of the alpha on the team behind the scenes. It makes perfect sense because he's older, more experienced and more articulate (in English, at least). But, I never really would've thought to make those connections unless I had seen that. Good observation on your part. I don't think the locker room leader is necessarily a huge portion of this conversation, but it probably should be a factor.  

[khaled1987]

Regarding Luka & Giannis: This will be Giannis team from league perspective,  but will be Luka's ream from Dallas fans perspective. Just like KD/Curry with GSW or Lebron/Wade with heat.

So, the above is something I vehemently disagree with, and goes a long way towards proving Omahen's point, imo.

I don't think there's a single person on Earth who'd view this as Giannis's team after watching those two play together for a year. I think Luka is the much more skilled offensive player, and the style of play would be set up so that Luka was very clearly the driving force of the team. In the two scenarios above, the incoming player was unquestionably the most talented player. While I think Giannis is the very definition of a GAME CHANGER, I don't anticipate that him being here would detract from Luka's shine one bit. The reverse of that happening is a real possibility, for those who care about such things.

Since you are a Mavs fan, you prove my point  

I doubt Giannis is sitting right there thinking Luka is the better player and asit stands right now I think Giannis is overwhelmingly considered the better player of the two.
As fans of Luka we have the right to think otherwise ,nothing wrong in that. But it isn't the public opinion and I doubt it will be what Giannis is thinking

[omahen]

I doubt Giannis is sitting right there thinking Luka is the better player and asit stands right now I think Giannis is overwhelmingly considered the better player of the two.
As fans of Luka we have the right to think otherwise ,nothing wrong in that. But it isn't the public opinion and I doubt it will be what Giannis is thinking

Once again. Being a star is not just about being a better player. Luka is already a bigger star, looking at worldwide popularity.

[KillerLeft]

Since you are a Mavs fan, you prove my point  

I doubt Giannis is sitting right there thinking Luka is the better player and asit stands right now I think Giannis is overwhelmingly considered the better player of the two.
As fans of Luka we have the right to think otherwise ,nothing wrong in that. But it isn't the public opinion and I doubt it will be what Giannis is thinking

Yes, yes. I understand, trust me. 

What you're saying above is kind of MY point about what I got from your earlier post. I agree that the national perception of Giannis is that he's the better player NOW, reading through this conversation has led me to a conclusion (similar to you, I think) that it's probably really difficult for Giannis to make the decision to join someone like Luka. 

But I don't think he'll be considered the better player for much longer, either way. I watched a TON of Milwaukee this year, especially in the playoffs, and I can promise you that featuring him as a ball-handler offensively in the half court is a DEAD END. He's one year away from suffering the national perception of "Giannis can't get it done in the playoffs." As Dirk fans, we are familiar with that nonsense.

[khaled1987]

I doubt Giannis is sitting right there thinking Luka is the better player and asit stands right now I think Giannis is overwhelmingly considered the better player of the two.
As fans of Luka we have the right to think otherwise ,nothing wrong in that. But it isn't the public opinion and I doubt it will be what Giannis is thinking

Once again. Being a star is not just about being a better player. Luka is already a bigger star, looking at worldwide popularity.

 What is the endorsement deals for both? I mean I would stand corrected if there is a proof of that

[ItsGoTime]

@"ItsGoTime" You make some good points. Here are some mild retorts:

What FANS most respond to is offensive creation. That's just part of the "it" factor, and really always has been. That's not to say that hardcore fans might not decide they like a great defensive presence and call that guy their favorite, but I don't think it's Giannis's defense that has won him two MVP's and put the Bucks on national TV so often, even though as you rightly point out, what he brings to the table on that end might be the most valuable thing he brings to the court objectively. 

I would probably agree with you that Giannis is the better player RIGHT NOW, but it's CLOSE. I'll confidently stand by my statement that Luka is "on the way" to becoming the bigger star. Can you honestly say that Giannis, if drafted two years ago at #3 by Atlanta at the Mavs' request, would've elevated the team THIS much, THIS soon? It's possible, but man, I don't see it. I think Luka is really, really special. Giannis would definitely bring some more eyeballs to the team (they'll end up peeing the Mavs anyway, eventually) but I think when those eyeballs start watching the team a couple of times per week like we do it will be impossible for them to deny the greatness that is Luka mf Doncic. 

That's a good point about KP. I really enjoyed that youtube documentary series "sounds from the base line" that documented the Mavs' season, and there were signs that he is sort of the alpha on the team behind the scenes. It makes perfect sense because he's older, more experienced and more articulate (in English, at least). But, I never really would've thought to make those connections unless I had seen that. Good observation on your part. I don't think the locker room leader is necessarily a huge portion of this conversation, but it probably should be a factor.  

I'm waffling a bit, cause I mostly agree with you (and started writing this post with that mostly in mind), but man, Giannis can also be just as much of a force on this team with the spacing Luka and KP would provide for him. Another big factor to add in is the clutch/game winning plays. Honestly, I don't know who would be on the top 10 more than the other on Sportscenter, from that perspective. 


A Giannis steal and fastbreak, while Luka hits a step back 3. I'm very back and forth on this as far as who would be the better player. I think the league would prefer both players be on separate teams in separate conferences (Miami or Boston and LA) and meeting each other in the finals every year.

[KillerLeft]

I think the league would prefer both players be on separate teams in separate conferences (Miami or Boston and LA) and meeting each other in the finals every year.

They might prefer that.

I would not. I've been waiting all my life for that magical moment when the world starts to bend itself to my will, laying happiness at my feet. Hopefully, this Luka/Giannis thing will be it. And hopefully I won't have to suffer through an M wearing a cowboy hat on the court to watch it.

[ItsGoTime]

And hopefully I won't have to suffer through an M wearing a cowboy hat on the court to watch it.

I chuckled!