Boban watch. was 2020 playoff Mavericks 1 Chance has almost No Chance to be Used

[Dahlsim]

Closeout rant.  Unfortunately just what I predicted here in regards to failing to leverage the main Dallas advantage, is what actually played out. 

The main point in this thread was that Size advantage represented by KP and Boban along with Doncic as a big play making guard, was the Mavs only real ADVANTAGE over the talented favorites.  Going wing for wing, guard vs guard was never a toe to toe match-up Dallas could expect to win, especially with a few key injury depletion roster holes.   

Dallas played hard, give the whole organization credit there.  They never quit.  
At end of the day however look what happened.  KP was hurt so that advantage was lost.  When the Unicorn did play however he was a MAJOR problem for the Clippers and just too tall for them to really bother his shots much.  A healthy KP is an exciting prospect to look for going forward. 
The injury couldn't be helped. 

That left Dallas fighting in the closeout game with Boban left as the other real size advantage that could support Doncic's excellent efforts. 

In the first half, the TV broadcasters made the point that Boban had been +10 for his limited minutes in the FIRST half.   The Clippers made their real game winning run, going up over 20 points then AFTER Boban was taken out and Doncic had to hold the fort with Carlisle's standard smaller lineups.   

The result was a crushing 2nd half run for Doc Rivers Kawhi led Clippers. 
Then in the 2nd half AFTER the Mavericks were down big and for all intensive purpose almost out of the game early, Rick Carlisle bring Bobi back in.  The Mavericks proceed to go on a BIG run and almost close the  deficit completely.
Kawhi had to come in and play super man (which he does very well) to preserve the lead.  

Marjanovic still ended up closing the season's last game with team-high impact +16 in only 17 minutes of play.  

Now why was Boban left out so long when playing so well and why did he only get 17 minutes with KP out and Maxi Kleber in a series long shooting slump? 

[Dahlsim]

The Nuggets big Game 7 win over the Clippers demonstrated EXACTLY what I was ranting about in this thread and in general about what I wished the Mavericks and Coach Carlisle would do, but I knew they wouldn't.  

The Nuggets STUN the Clippers in Game 7, the same Clippers that the Mavericks couldn't handle and a BIG part of the reason why was the BIG man and the way they used their SIZE advantage over the small ball center super wings guard heavy super D' Clippers. 

I wasn't just the monster Nikola Jokic game putting up a triple-double with 16 points, 13 assists, and 22 rebounds leading the Nuggets to get the Game 7 upset over the Clippers.
It was the fact that Clippers had to often throw 2 and 3 players at the big man then scramble back, opening up the scoring for Jamaal and company.  They also were compromised in floor position for rebounding as the floor was wide open for the Nuggets size with the slow footed Jokic getting a ridiculous 22 point triple double! 

Thing about it is, even after the Unicorn was sadly injured and out, giving up some of the Dallas size advantage, they still had Boban.  Boban had already demonstrated on multiple occasions, in the full game earlier in the season and then alter in his short minute stints that he could really hurt the Clippers.  
It just wasn't in the coaching playbook for Dallas.  Fortunately for the Nuggets, down 3-1, they found it in their playbook! 

[video=youtube] https://youtu.be/wWQodbewQpA[/video]

[dirkfansince1998]

The Nuggets big Game 7 win over the Clippers demonstrated EXACTLY what I was ranting about in this thread and in general about what I wished the Mavericks and Coach Carlisle would do, but I knew they wouldn't.  

The Nuggets STUN the Clippers in Game 7, the same Clippers that the Mavericks couldn't handle and a BIG part of the reason why was the BIG man and the way they used their SIZE advantage over the small ball center super wings guard heavy super D' Clippers. 

I wasn't just the monster Nikola Jokic game putting up a triple-double with 16 points, 13 assists, and 22 rebounds leading the Nuggets to get the Game 7 upset over the Clippers.
It was the fact that Clippers had to often throw 2 and 3 players at the big man then scramble back, opening up the scoring for Jamaal and company.  They also were compromised in floor position for rebounding as the floor was wide open for the Nuggets size with the slow footed Jokic getting a ridiculous 22 point triple double! 

Thing about it is, even after the Unicorn was sadly injured and out, giving up some of the Dallas size advantage, they still had Boban.  Boban had already demonstrated on multiple occasions, in the full game earlier in the season and then alter in his short minute stints that he could really hurt the Clippers.  
It just wasn't in the coaching playbook for Dallas.  Fortunately for the Nuggets, down 3-1, they found it in their playbook! 

[video=youtube] https://youtu.be/wWQodbewQpA[/video]

Sure. Find me a center like Jokic and I am all for a big lineup. Fact is that they did play single big lineups. Not the previously used Plumlee-Jokic combination. They also had bigger/stronger wing defenders (Millsap, Grant).
Boban was great against Harrell but not good against Zubac. For a player like Jokic the matchup doesn´t matter. He is the best player on the floor. Not to mention that he is a way better defender than Boban.
This wasn´t about going big or small. This was about a unique alltime great performance from Jokic who is easily the best passing big ever.

[Mapka]

The Nuggets big Game 7 win over the Clippers demonstrated EXACTLY what I was ranting about in this thread and in general about what I wished the Mavericks and Coach Carlisle would do, but I knew they wouldn't.  

The Nuggets STUN the Clippers in Game 7, the same Clippers that the Mavericks couldn't handle and a BIG part of the reason why was the BIG man and the way they used their SIZE advantage over the small ball center super wings guard heavy super D' Clippers. 

I wasn't just the monster Nikola Jokic game putting up a triple-double with 16 points, 13 assists, and 22 rebounds leading the Nuggets to get the Game 7 upset over the Clippers.
It was the fact that Clippers had to often throw 2 and 3 players at the big man then scramble back, opening up the scoring for Jamaal and company.  They also were compromised in floor position for rebounding as the floor was wide open for the Nuggets size with the slow footed Jokic getting a ridiculous 22 point triple double! 

Thing about it is, even after the Unicorn was sadly injured and out, giving up some of the Dallas size advantage, they still had Boban.  Boban had already demonstrated on multiple occasions, in the full game earlier in the season and then alter in his short minute stints that he could really hurt the Clippers.  
It just wasn't in the coaching playbook for Dallas.  Fortunately for the Nuggets, down 3-1, they found it in their playbook! 

[video=youtube] https://youtu.be/wWQodbewQpA[/video]

Sure. Find me a center like Jokic and I am all for a big lineup. Fact is that they did play single big lineups. Not the previously used Plumlee-Jokic combination. They also had bigger/stronger wing defenders (Millsap, Grant).
Boban was great against Harrell but not good against Zubac. For a player like Jokic the matchup doesn´t matter. He is the best player on the floor. Not to mention that he is a way better defender than Boban.
This wasn´t about going big or small. This was about a unique alltime great performance from Jokic who is easily the best passing big ever.

It was about our shoters going cold and their roleplayers hitting everything in the end. 

Don't tell me about perimeter defense, just us not hitting good looks and them hitting the prayers. And Kawaih being automatic and us not allowed to play defense against him.

KP would have helped of course...

[Dahlsim]

The Nuggets big Game 7 win over the Clippers demonstrated EXACTLY what I was ranting about in this thread and in general about what I wished the Mavericks and Coach Carlisle would do, but I knew they wouldn't.  

The Nuggets STUN the Clippers in Game 7, the same Clippers that the Mavericks couldn't handle and a BIG part of the reason why was the BIG man and the way they used their SIZE advantage over the small ball center super wings guard heavy super D' Clippers. 

I wasn't just the monster Nikola Jokic game putting up a triple-double with 16 points, 13 assists, and 22 rebounds leading the Nuggets to get the Game 7 upset over the Clippers.
It was the fact that Clippers had to often throw 2 and 3 players at the big man then scramble back, opening up the scoring for Jamaal and company.  They also were compromised in floor position for rebounding as the floor was wide open for the Nuggets size with the slow footed Jokic getting a ridiculous 22 point triple double! 

Thing about it is, even after the Unicorn was sadly injured and out, giving up some of the Dallas size advantage, they still had Boban.  Boban had already demonstrated on multiple occasions, in the full game earlier in the season and then alter in his short minute stints that he could really hurt the Clippers.  
It just wasn't in the coaching playbook for Dallas.  Fortunately for the Nuggets, down 3-1, they found it in their playbook! 

[video=youtube] https://youtu.be/wWQodbewQpA[/video]

Sure. Find me a center like Jokic and I am all for a big lineup. Fact is that they did play single big lineups. Not the previously used Plumlee-Jokic combination. They also had bigger/stronger wing defenders (Millsap, Grant).
Boban was great against Harrell but not good against Zubac. For a player like Jokic the matchup doesn´t matter. He is the best player on the floor. Not to mention that he is a way better defender than Boban.
This wasn´t about going big or small. This was about a unique alltime great performance from Jokic who is easily the best passing big ever.

Boban is not Jokic and I'm not saying he is.  Per minute in fact the case has been made that Boban is a "star" offensively on historic levels, but they aren't the same player.  For this discussion though the similarities can be seen easily.  Both are BIG, relatively slow footed skilled offensive players, not great defenders, powerful rebounders etc. etc.  
In Boban's minutes, severely underused limited minutes, on the floor.  He was at times the ONLY + player on the floor, he was extremely productive in most of his opportunities but the BIG difference is utilization. 

Jokic is a high utilization player on offense in his time in the floor.  Boban is often a big giant screen setter that gets a few plays run for him then has to get most of his touches cleaning up the boards. 

  Boban even in his minutes doesn't  have offense run through him or off of him consistently often enough to give full advantage to Luka, Seth, THJ the way Jokic impacts the floor for Murray, Harris and the Nuggets wings and guards.   

So Boban's best assets as a big were never maximized in the Dallas vs Clippers the way Jokic's were against the smaller Clippers.

[ItsGoTime]

It was about our shoters going cold and their roleplayers hitting everything in the end. 

Don't tell me about perimeter defense, just us not hitting good looks and them hitting the prayers. And Kawaih being automatic and us not allowed to play defense against him.

KP would have helped of course...

Such a dangerous take if our front office thinks this way. I really hope for our team’s sake they don’t believe this.

[Dahlsim]

The Nuggets big Game 7 win over the Clippers demonstrated EXACTLY what I was ranting about in this thread and in general about what I wished the Mavericks and Coach Carlisle would do, but I knew they wouldn't.  

The Nuggets STUN the Clippers in Game 7, the same Clippers that the Mavericks couldn't handle and a BIG part of the reason why was the BIG man and the way they used their SIZE advantage over the small ball center super wings guard heavy super D' Clippers. 

I wasn't just the monster Nikola Jokic game putting up a triple-double with 16 points, 13 assists, and 22 rebounds leading the Nuggets to get the Game 7 upset over the Clippers.
It was the fact that Clippers had to often throw 2 and 3 players at the big man then scramble back, opening up the scoring for Jamaal and company.  They also were compromised in floor position for rebounding as the floor was wide open for the Nuggets size with the slow footed Jokic getting a ridiculous 22 point triple double! 

Thing about it is, even after the Unicorn was sadly injured and out, giving up some of the Dallas size advantage, they still had Boban.  Boban had already demonstrated on multiple occasions, in the full game earlier in the season and then alter in his short minute stints that he could really hurt the Clippers.  
It just wasn't in the coaching playbook for Dallas.  Fortunately for the Nuggets, down 3-1, they found it in their playbook! 

[video=youtube] https://youtu.be/wWQodbewQpA[/video]

Sure. Find me a center like Jokic and I am all for a big lineup. Fact is that they did play single big lineups. Not the previously used Plumlee-Jokic combination. They also had bigger/stronger wing defenders (Millsap, Grant).
Boban was great against Harrell but not good against Zubac. For a player like Jokic the matchup doesn´t matter. He is the best player on the floor. Not to mention that he is a way better defender than Boban.
This wasn´t about going big or small. This was about a unique alltime great performance from Jokic who is easily the best passing big ever.

It was about our shoters going cold and their roleplayers hitting everything in the end. 

Don't tell me about perimeter defense, just us not hitting good looks and them hitting the prayers. And Kawaih being automatic and us not allowed to play defense against him.

KP would have helped of course...

KP certainly would have helped and did help before he was injured.  The difference for KP vs Boban is KP IS a high utilization offensive player, so he had the chance to impact the game much more and his minutes are much higher so naturally his size advantage was a BIG loss. 

The point is, instead of continuing to find ways to exploit the size advantage, the Mavericks tried to go more toe to toe, small on small which played right in LAC and Doc River's hands. 

I don't imply just this one factor caused the Mavs loss, but it was HUGE factor and it could have been a difference maker.  We'll never know, but we did see it work against this same Clipper team that ousted the Mavericks.

[dirkfansince1998]

The Nuggets big Game 7 win over the Clippers demonstrated EXACTLY what I was ranting about in this thread and in general about what I wished the Mavericks and Coach Carlisle would do, but I knew they wouldn't.  

The Nuggets STUN the Clippers in Game 7, the same Clippers that the Mavericks couldn't handle and a BIG part of the reason why was the BIG man and the way they used their SIZE advantage over the small ball center super wings guard heavy super D' Clippers. 

I wasn't just the monster Nikola Jokic game putting up a triple-double with 16 points, 13 assists, and 22 rebounds leading the Nuggets to get the Game 7 upset over the Clippers.
It was the fact that Clippers had to often throw 2 and 3 players at the big man then scramble back, opening up the scoring for Jamaal and company.  They also were compromised in floor position for rebounding as the floor was wide open for the Nuggets size with the slow footed Jokic getting a ridiculous 22 point triple double! 

Thing about it is, even after the Unicorn was sadly injured and out, giving up some of the Dallas size advantage, they still had Boban.  Boban had already demonstrated on multiple occasions, in the full game earlier in the season and then alter in his short minute stints that he could really hurt the Clippers.  
It just wasn't in the coaching playbook for Dallas.  Fortunately for the Nuggets, down 3-1, they found it in their playbook! 

[video=youtube] https://youtu.be/wWQodbewQpA[/video]

Sure. Find me a center like Jokic and I am all for a big lineup. Fact is that they did play single big lineups. Not the previously used Plumlee-Jokic combination. They also had bigger/stronger wing defenders (Millsap, Grant).
Boban was great against Harrell but not good against Zubac. For a player like Jokic the matchup doesn´t matter. He is the best player on the floor. Not to mention that he is a way better defender than Boban.
This wasn´t about going big or small. This was about a unique alltime great performance from Jokic who is easily the best passing big ever.

Boban is not Jokic and I'm not saying he is.  Per minute in fact the case has been made that Boban is a "star" offensively on historic levels, but they aren't the same player.  For this discussion though the similarities can be seen easily.  Both are BIG, relatively slow footed skilled offensive players, not great defenders, powerful rebounders etc. etc.  
In Boban's minutes, severely underused limited minutes, on the floor.  He was at times the ONLY + player on the floor, he was extremely productive in most of his opportunities but the BIG difference is utilization. 

Jokic is a high utilization player on offense in his time in the floor.  Boban is often a big giant screen setter that gets a few plays run for him then has to get most of his touches cleaning up the boards. 

  Boban even in his minutes doesn't  have offense run through him or off of him consistently often enough to give full advantage to Luka, Seth, THJ the way Jokic impacts the floor for Murray, Harris and the Nuggets wings and guards.   

So Boban's best assets as a big were never maximized in the Dallas vs Clippers the way Jokic's were against the smaller Clippers.

So you admit that Boban isn´t as good as Jokic but still want him to get a similar usage. Boban is only used as a screener or post player because that´s his skill set. Jokic spends more time outside the 3-point line than prime Dirk ever did. He initiates plays as a the ballhandler but can also be the screener. He has legit 3-point range and can create offense from all over the court. Give Boban the ball at the top of the key and let him create. You probably won´t like the results.

The more I think about it the more I disagree with the entire idea of even trying to compare both. Both play center and have great post skills. That´s the only similarity.
Not even sure how anybody can watch Jokic and come to the conclusion that Boban needs more usage/minutes. Jokic is not an oldschool center. He is not posting up 10+ times a game. He is basically the next evolution of positionless basketball. A point center that handles the ball just as much or even more than the best perimeter player.

---

My big takeaway from the Clippers-Nuggets series is that the Mavs should find ways to involve Luka in the pick and roll as the screener. He is just as good as a passer as Jokic and in the last few days we could all see how easy it was for him to expose the Clippers defense.

[Mapka]

It was about our shoters going cold and their roleplayers hitting everything in the end. 

Don't tell me about perimeter defense, just us not hitting good looks and them hitting the prayers. And Kawaih being automatic and us not allowed to play defense against him.

KP would have helped of course...

Such a dangerous take if our front office thinks this way. I really hope for our team’s sake they don’t believe this.

I didn't say there is no work to do.
My fear is we do to much. 
We need a strong big twoway wing and we have to swap Delon for a better fit. 

But we have to keep the chemisty.

[ItsGoTime]

I didn't say there is no work to do.
My fear is we do to much. 
We need a strong big twoway wing and we have to swap Delon for a better fit. 

But we have to keep the chemisty.

Chemistry can be formed within a year (see championship year and even this year). Can’t just get anyone in here, I agree, but if we’re diligent with our research, we can find the guys that fit the lockerroom and on the court, at least 2 more 2-way, know their role starters and I’d prefer 3. 


We found almost all the guys other than KP and Luka in the bargain bin. We know Donnie can pretty consistently do that. Let’s finish the job with the starters using whatever we need to to get them THEN worry about what the bench looks like.

[Dahlsim]

The Nuggets big Game 7 win over the Clippers demonstrated EXACTLY what I was ranting about in this thread and in general about what I wished the Mavericks and Coach Carlisle would do, but I knew they wouldn't.  

The Nuggets STUN the Clippers in Game 7, the same Clippers that the Mavericks couldn't handle and a BIG part of the reason why was the BIG man and the way they used their SIZE advantage over the small ball center super wings guard heavy super D' Clippers. 

I wasn't just the monster Nikola Jokic game putting up a triple-double with 16 points, 13 assists, and 22 rebounds leading the Nuggets to get the Game 7 upset over the Clippers.
It was the fact that Clippers had to often throw 2 and 3 players at the big man then scramble back, opening up the scoring for Jamaal and company.  They also were compromised in floor position for rebounding as the floor was wide open for the Nuggets size with the slow footed Jokic getting a ridiculous 22 point triple double! 

Thing about it is, even after the Unicorn was sadly injured and out, giving up some of the Dallas size advantage, they still had Boban.  Boban had already demonstrated on multiple occasions, in the full game earlier in the season and then alter in his short minute stints that he could really hurt the Clippers.  
It just wasn't in the coaching playbook for Dallas.  Fortunately for the Nuggets, down 3-1, they found it in their playbook! 

[video=youtube] https://youtu.be/wWQodbewQpA[/video]

Sure. Find me a center like Jokic and I am all for a big lineup. Fact is that they did play single big lineups. Not the previously used Plumlee-Jokic combination. They also had bigger/stronger wing defenders (Millsap, Grant).
Boban was great against Harrell but not good against Zubac. For a player like Jokic the matchup doesn´t matter. He is the best player on the floor. Not to mention that he is a way better defender than Boban.
This wasn´t about going big or small. This was about a unique alltime great performance from Jokic who is easily the best passing big ever.

Boban is not Jokic and I'm not saying he is.  Per minute in fact the case has been made that Boban is a "star" offensively on historic levels, but they aren't the same player.  For this discussion though the similarities can be seen easily.  Both are BIG, relatively slow footed skilled offensive players, not great defenders, powerful rebounders etc. etc.  
In Boban's minutes, severely underused limited minutes, on the floor.  He was at times the ONLY + player on the floor, he was extremely productive in most of his opportunities but the BIG difference is utilization. 

Jokic is a high utilization player on offense in his time in the floor.  Boban is often a big giant screen setter that gets a few plays run for him then has to get most of his touches cleaning up the boards. 

  Boban even in his minutes doesn't  have offense run through him or off of him consistently often enough to give full advantage to Luka, Seth, THJ the way Jokic impacts the floor for Murray, Harris and the Nuggets wings and guards.   

So Boban's best assets as a big were never maximized in the Dallas vs Clippers the way Jokic's were against the smaller Clippers.

So you admit that Boban isn´t as good as Jokic but still want him to get a similar usage. Boban is only used as a screener or post player because that´s his skill set. Jokic spends more time outside the 3-point line than prime Dirk ever did. He initiates plays as a the ballhandler but can also be the screener. He has legit 3-point range and can create offense from all over the court. Give Boban the ball at the top of the key and let him create. You probably won´t like the results.

The more I think about it the more I disagree with the entire idea of even trying to compare both. Both play center and have great post skills. That´s the only similarity.
Not even sure how anybody can watch Jokic and come to the conclusion that Boban needs more usage/minutes. Jokic is not an oldschool center. He is not posting up 10+ times a game. He is basically the next evolution of positionless basketball. A point center that handles the ball just as much or even more than the best perimeter player.

---

My big takeaway from the Clippers-Nuggets series is that the Mavs should find ways to involve Luka in the pick and roll as the screener. He is just as good as a passer as Jokic and in the last few days we could all see how easy it was for him to expose the Clippers defense.

So you admit that Boban isn´t as good as Jokic but still want him to get a similar usage.

I didn't say he isn't as good, those are your words, I said he isn't the same player.  I said they have differences and similarities but in this case the similarities matter. 

Shaq is a different player from Jokic but that doesn't mean Shaq shouldn't get similar usage. 
Boban probably won't shoot 3's as well as Jokic (we don't know how well he might shoot them, there's youtube footage of him draining them in pickup game) but I think the facts bear out he's actually more deadly near the rim and he's still a reliable free throw shooter.  

You should probably go back and actually read some of the posts in this very thread and see the facts of the way Boban ACTUALLY performed in this series.  Based on the facts of his per minute and game by game performance over limited minutes and opportunities your comments just way off base.  Boban is way more flexible on offense than you describe.  Just go back and watch the videos even in this thread and that's all the evidence you need.  

The more I think about it the more I disagree with the entire idea of even trying to compare both. Both play center and have great post skills.

Not at all.  Just as Jokic torched the Clippers for instance with 22 killer rebounds Boban, in short minutes similarly torched the Clippers on the boards.  Isn't that a similarity that has impact on a game? 

Boban is actually quite a good passer, I don't think on Jokic level but then he never gets a chance to do see just how good he might be.  Let's face it he can be +10 and rack up points and assists in a few minutes and he still won't play again unless maybe Mavs are getting killed which is we actually saw that exact scenario play out in this series.  

I think Shaq said it best when he said in a post game of series that Boban could be the 3rd star of this team in terms of his impact behind Luka & KP.  I actually didn't go that far, Seth or THJ maybe I'd say but then we never know because due the coaching strategies, Boban can have a monster game of all time and still sit the bench next game while the Mavericks get blown out. 

Maybe you forget that Boban actually had a matchup in a game this season against JOKIC? 


That strategy of sitting an extremely productive player and Assuming he can't do for a longer time  is almost as illogical as your post, but then I understand how short memories of fans can be. 

[Mapka]

I didn't say there is no work to do.
My fear is we do to much. 
We need a strong big twoway wing and we have to swap Delon for a better fit. 

But we have to keep the chemisty.

Chemistry can be formed within a year (see championship year and even this year). Can’t just get anyone in here, I agree, but if we’re diligent with our research, we can find the guys that fit the lockerroom and on the court, at least 2 more 2-way, know their role starters and I’d prefer 3. 


We found almost all the guys other than KP and Luka in the bargain bin. We know Donnie can pretty consistently do that. Let’s finish the job with the starters using whatever we need to to get them THEN worry about what the bench looks like.

It takes 2-3 years to make a bargain bin player. 

We can get 2 starters without killing the rotation.

[ItsGoTime]

I didn't say there is no work to do.
My fear is we do to much. 
We need a strong big twoway wing and we have to swap Delon for a better fit. 

But we have to keep the chemisty.

Chemistry can be formed within a year (see championship year and even this year). Can’t just get anyone in here, I agree, but if we’re diligent with our research, we can find the guys that fit the lockerroom and on the court, at least 2 more 2-way, know their role starters and I’d prefer 3. 


We found almost all the guys other than KP and Luka in the bargain bin. We know Donnie can pretty consistently do that. Let’s finish the job with the starters using whatever we need to to get them THEN worry about what the bench looks like.

It takes 2-3 years to make a bargain bin player. 

We can get 2 starters without killing the rotation.

There have been plenty of examples to the contrary. Aminu and Brendan Wright to name 2. Powell has been the worst case scenario due to the insistence of the owner to continue to win the Rondo trade.

---

Wait, are you arguing that it’s more important to have a good bench to maintain chemistry than it is to get the right starters in place? Guys that will play 20 mins for us once we get the 30-34 min starters?

[Mapka]

I didn't say there is no work to do.
My fear is we do to much. 
We need a strong big twoway wing and we have to swap Delon for a better fit. 

But we have to keep the chemisty.

Chemistry can be formed within a year (see championship year and even this year). Can’t just get anyone in here, I agree, but if we’re diligent with our research, we can find the guys that fit the lockerroom and on the court, at least 2 more 2-way, know their role starters and I’d prefer 3. 


We found almost all the guys other than KP and Luka in the bargain bin. We know Donnie can pretty consistently do that. Let’s finish the job with the starters using whatever we need to to get them THEN worry about what the bench looks like.

It takes 2-3 years to make a bargain bin player. 

We can get 2 starters without killing the rotation.

There have been plenty of examples to the contrary. Aminu and Brendan Wright to name 2. Powell has been the worst case scenario due to the insistence of the owner to continue to win the Rondo trade.

---

Wait, are you arguing that it’s more important to have a good bench to maintain chemistry than it is to get the right starters in place? Guys that will play 20 mins for us once we get the 30-34 min starters?

I'd bet Aminu would have become a much better player, if he stayed one year longer. But I never liked him. 
------------------------------------------
I won't argue we need at least one fitting good starter. But why would we cut our bench for an marginal better one.

[dirkfansince1998]

Not at all.  Just as Jokic torched the Clippers for instance with 22 killer rebounds Boban, in short minutes similarly torched the Clippers on the boards.  Isn't that a similarity that has impact on a game? 

It isn´t. Jokic wasn´t killing the Clippers on the offensive board. He collected def rebounds. That´s important but not really special. Jokic had 10 off rebounds in the entire 7 game series. That´s actually really bad for a center. Why? Because he spends most of the time on the perimeter. Be it as the ballhandler or screener.

That strategy of sitting an extremely productive player and Assuming he can't do for a longer time  is almost as illogical as your post, but then I understand how short memories of fans can be. 

Oh. So we are getting a little bit snarky. Well...I´ll bite.
Personally I think it is illogical when a person countinues to repeat the same case over and over again. Not even addressing potential counter arguments.
Just think about it. When you think that the entire world around you is narrow minded and no one understands your point maybe they actually aren´t and it is just you.

You should probably go back and actually read some of the posts in this very thread and see the facts of the way Boban ACTUALLY performed in this series.  Based on the facts of his per minute and game by game performance over limited minutes and opportunities your comments just way off base.  Boban is way more flexible on offense than you describe.  Just go back and watch the videos even in this thread and that's all the evidence you need.  

Don´t need to. I watched every single minute of all 6 games. He abused Harrell (just like Jokic) because of his height advantage in the paint and Harrells lack of outside shooting on the other end. Boban did not have the same kind of impact when Zubac was on the floor and RC benched him because the offensive advantage no longer outweighted the defensive problems.
Agree that Boban played great in his limited minutes but that was actually a great coaching job from RC. He found a favorable matchup and exploited it.
Disagree on the bolded part. Please explain what you mean. Boban is a gifted scorer in the paint. He has a soft touch around the rim and due to his size he can get deep post position. He is a solid freethrow shooter and even tried to expand his range but I wouldn´t say that he is a good shooter overall. He obviously is a great rebounder. He is a solid passer as well.
With that said. He cannot put the ball on the floor. That´s just a big disadvantage in the modern NBA and it limits his efficiency in the pick and roll and as a playmaker.
If you really watched Jokic vs the Clippers you would understand that they did not run their offense through the post. The one play that the Clippers couldn´t defend was a simple high pick and roll with Murray as the ballhandler. When Jokic caught the ball he basically only had to make the right read. Wait for the Clippers rotation and find the open shooter or put the ball on the floor and take it to the rim/shoot. That´s something Boban could never do. He lacks the mobility and the handles that make Jokic special.

There is nothing that Jokic did in this series that relates to the way Boban played against them except for some post up touches against Harrell. If you just want to use every single great center performance to continue your season long rant about the lack of bigman minutes. Carry on.

[Dahlsim]

Not at all.  Just as Jokic torched the Clippers for instance with 22 killer rebounds Boban, in short minutes similarly torched the Clippers on the boards.  Isn't that a similarity that has impact on a game? 

It isn´t. Jokic wasn´t killing the Clippers on the offensive board. He collected def rebounds. That´s important but not really special. Jokic had 10 off rebounds in the entire 7 game series. That´s actually really bad for a center. Why? Because he spends most of the time on the perimeter. Be it as the ballhandler or screener.

That strategy of sitting an extremely productive player and Assuming he can't do for a longer time  is almost as illogical as your post, but then I understand how short memories of fans can be. 

Oh. So we are getting a little bit snarky. Well...I´ll bite.
.... 

There is nothing that Jokic did in this series that relates to the way Boban played against them except for some post up touches against Harrell. If you just want to use every single great center performance to continue your season long rant about the lack of bigman minutes. Carry on.

Oh. So we are getting a little bit snarky. Well...I´ll bite.

Not at all personal my friend, all in good fun.   

My point is not to break down exactly what Boban does play for play vs. what Jokic does.  
I love Jokic and his game as much or more even Bobi's for todays game but I think it's foolish to ignore and discount the obvious similarities.  Boban is much more flexible than he's allowed to display and he's more dominating at the rim than Jokic imo. 

I don't mind discussing the same thing because it remains the same issue and I find it fascinating when people miss the nose on the their face looking at the trees and an interesting point glossed over more than it should be. 

I don't need someone elses validation to make my point, although its always nice to find it. 
Validation can be found in some of the Players like the Inside the NBA team or NBA coaches like Van Gundy who flat out says he regrets not playing Boban more and the great Greg Popovich who says he feels like an idiot not being in a position to resign Marjonovic due to contract.

[dirkfansince1998]

I think @"omahen" already made the point. Everyone loves Boban and wishes things went different but no one was/is willing to pay him more than the Mavs or trade for him. Just like no one was/is willing to to play him big minutes.

[Dahlsim]

I think @"omahen" already made the point. Everyone loves Boban and wishes things went different but no one was/is willing to pay him more than the Mavs or trade for him. Just like no one was/is willing to to play him big minutes.

You guys are pretty funny.  You don't address any of the things that are actually posted, you just responding by saying "Well why didn't these other guys play & pay him more?" as though that settles how much he should play no matter what we actually see on the floor. 

 You don't actually address or respond to what the Coaches actually said on the record, like Van Gundy saying it was his biggest coaching mistake in Detroit not to play him more, or Popovich saying he felt like an idiot not to resign him but having to encourage him to take the bigger pay day for his family because the Spurs couldn't match. 
Doesn't that imply that had Van Gundy or Popovich been able to keep him he might have played more minutes under them? 

You ignore the fact that his lower minutes under those quality coaches were also affected by playing behind All star starters like Tim Duncan, Andre Drummond, Joel Embiid at the time. 

Its funny how none of you comment at all on Shaq's comments about Boban being maybe as important as the the 3rd potential impact player on the Mavericks, especially during that Clipper series, which sounds strange until you actually look at the + rating in his limited minutes on the floor versus when he was off the floor. 

I have not seen a comment about Bobi's monster game performances like the one on video there against the great Nikola Jokic or his big + impact minutes in the series against the Clippers or the game where he was +10 only to be cut short and glued to the bench when the team started getting killed by those Clips.   

Just keep repeating "but, but, nobody gave him a lot of minutes!". 
Btw, I'm not even arguing how many minutes exactly he should get.  I'm saying its been obvious at times that his performance on the floor indicated he could have helped the team in more important stretches. 

On offense, it doesn't matter to this point exactly how Jokic scores.  Either the offense is more efficient or not.  Either the rebounding is better or not. 
I'm saying Jokic was called "unstoppable" on offense by Doc Rivers and Boban can be just as unstoppable if his actual usage were high, no matter where his offense would be initiated from. 

The point is he scores, inside, free throws and pulls the defense in opening up offensive space and lanes for Luka and the other Mavericks.

[dirkfansince1998]

You guys are pretty funny.  You don't address any of the things that are actually posted, you just responding by saying "Well why didn't these other guys play & pay him more?" as though that settles how much he should play no matter what we actually see on the floor. 

I think the difference is that I don´t think they are being serious. Coaches say similar things about their former players all the time. Just a few quotes from our very own RC.

"He’s the kind of guy you never want to get rid of or let go in a trade, but things happen in this league and he’s been a winning, productive player at every stop that he’s been"

"I have great respect for him, because he helped us win 99 games in two years and we wouldn’t have come closer without him. We’re really grateful for what he did for us and as always you’ve got to game-plan your butt off to get ready to play him."

That´s what polite and nice coaches do. When Brandan Wright was signing with Houston in 2018 RC went out of his way to praise him even though the entire league knew that he was done.

Its funny how none of you comment at all on Shaq's comments about Boban being maybe as important as the the 3rd potential impact player on the Mavericks, especially during that Clipper series, which sounds strange until you actually look at the + rating in his limited minutes on the floor versus when he was off the floor. 

Shaq loves oldschool bigman. I wonder why . They obviously won´t call him a random role player on live TV.
The +/- numbers are easily explained when you look at Harrell and Zubac numbers. I already did it in detail and won´t repeat myself.

I have not seen a comment about Bobi's monster game performances like the one on video there against the great Nikola Jokic or his big + impact minutes in the series against the Clippers or the game where he was +10 only to be cut short and glued to the bench when the team started getting killed by those Clips.   

Was the last game of the regular season. Players were informed about the COVID break midway through the game. Absolutely loved to see Boban do his thing but that game had zero intensity afterwards. The game actually is a good example to show the good and bad about Boban. He did not do much in the 1st half and in the 3rd quarter the Mavs gave up a big run because the Nuggets were hitting open shot after open shot because the Mavs couldn´t guard the perimeter with Boban on the floor. When the Nuggets cooled down in the 4th quarter he started to dominate and scored more than half of his points.

I have mentioned his great performance in the matchup with Harrell multiples times. Not really sure what else you want me to say. RC rarely used him against Zubac or Green because it did not work as good.

Just keep repeating "but, but, nobody gave him a lot of minutes!". 

What else am I supposed to do. You are ignoring anything that we say and happened. It´s a fact. Get over it.

On offense, it doesn't matter to this point exactly how Jokic scores.  Either the offense is more efficient or not.  Either the rebounding is better or not. 
I'm saying Jokic was called "unstoppable" on offense by Doc Rivers and Boban can be just as unstoppable if his actual usage were high, no matter where his offense would be initiated from. 

Not even sure what I can respond to a post like this. Jokic is on a Dirk/Doncic level as a offensive anchor. He is not just scoring or rebounding more or more efficient. Jokic was not unstoppable because he had big boxscore numbers or good shooting percentages. He was unstoppable because Doc could not find a scheme to stop him. Zone, double teams, big defender/small defender. He did what ever he wanted no matter the matchup or scheme.
I don´t need to fantasies about Boban being just as good on a higer usage. I saw what happened when he was matched up with Zubac and he wasn´t unstoppable. RC saw the same things and made the right adjustments.

Not to mention that Jokic looks like prime Hakeem on defense compared to Boban. That´s why the whole "either the offense is more efficient or not / rebounding is better or not talk" is just dishonest. We all know that´s not the case. The Mavs do not even try to play their usual defensive scheme when Boban is on the floor and try to hide him in a zone. Everything he does on offense comes with a price. Sometimes it is worth it. Sometimes it isn´t.

[Dahlsim]

+10 for a thoughtful and specific response. 

I think the difference is that I don´t think they are being serious. Coaches say similar things about their former players all the time. Just a few quotes from our very own RC.

Ok, so if the coaches say stuff we agree with, we can take them seriously but if not then we don't take them seriously?    Well pardon me for taking some remarks at face value. 

I could kind of see maybe putting what Pop said as potentially being in the 'say nice things about former player' category which you summarily dismiss, but Van Gundy's remarks can't honestly be put in that category.  That is absolutely NOT something you hear coaches say, in fact rarely ever have I heard it.  He even went as far as to call not playing Boban more minutes his greatest takeaway as a mistake from his Detroit coaching time.  

Doc Rivers also made some very interesting comments about how he played the give some and get some game with Boban on defense and he found that it was no guarantee that the opposing coach would win more than he would lose in trying to take advantage of Boban. 

Again, you ignore the fact that Van Gundy had Drummond in front of him and Pop had a guy name Tim Duncan getting a few minutes.  Even then, Boban got some starter time when TD was out and performed solidly despite the fact he was much less experienced in the NBA at that point.  

In other words there are specific situations where it can be very advantageous having a guy on the floor that is very, very difficult for the defense to stop 1 on 1 even if its for 2 points and free throws.

Shaq loves oldschool bigman. I wonder why  . They obviously won´t call him a random role player on live TV.

The +/- numbers are easily explained when you look at Harrell and Zubac numbers. I already did it in detail and won´t repeat myself.
...

I have mentioned his great performance in the matchup with Harrell multiples times. Not really sure what else you want me to say. RC rarely used him against Zubac or Green because it did not work as good.

So then when can put any remarks Shaq makes about big men in the NBA right into the ignore can along with Popovich, Van Gundy and anyone else that doesn't support your presupposition about Boban's usage.  Got it. 

You're accusing me of ignoring your Zubac argument, which by the way was very generalized and you gave no substantiation other then "I watched the game and he wasn't good against Zubac". 

Your Zubac arguments are at least reasonable but not as strong as you seem to think.  For one thing, you missed all the details of my argument.  When Boban is in the game, he should have his offense leveraged against the opposing big man.  Rick Carlisle's offense completely fails to do this for a player like Boban.  Burke, or Seth, THJ, even KP, those guys have games that Coach's offense can allow to shine, IF they are hitting. 
  
Zubac would have as much or more difficulty stopping Boban as Boban might have against him.  The problem is if Boban is not being leveraged to take advantage of his offense then he's running up the floor setting big screens while his opponent can spend his energy on offense against him.   

Additionally if you really watched the game and check the numbers Zubac actually DESTROYED the Mavs even more without Boban on the floor.  Truth is your argument is entirely demolished by the facts of Boban's actual performance: 

Let's look at the Actual Facts: 

Game 1  Mavs loss - Boban plays only 12 minutes yet had 8 friggin rebounds! Throw in 1 of 2 shots and an assist.  Are you kidding me?  Zubac played 22 minutes to get 10 reb. while got 9 shots and made 5 with an assist.  

Game 2 Mavs win - Boban played only 9 minutes yet had 13 points on 6/8 shooting, 9 rebounds and an assist?  Your boy Zubac had 18 minutes, double Boban's time but he got 3 points and 4 rebounds.  Clearly he killed Boban there.  
Again dirkfan you don't take coaches comments or Shaqs comments serious but can you take those numbers seriously? 

Game 3 Mavs loss - Zubac 29 minutes 15 pts 6 reb 0 ast. 6 of 8 shooting is very good.  Carlisle gave Boban only 9 minutes to get his 3 points 2 reb. and an assist despite his fantastic production in game 2!  Who was Zubac killing for 20 of those minutes?  It couldn't be Boban because he wasn't in the game.  Doh! 

Game 4 Mavs win - Zubac 21 minutes 15 pts 4 reb 1 ast. Boban played 15 minutes yet had 10 points on 5/9 shooting and 7 big rebounds. 

Game 5 Mavs blowout loss - Zubac 21 minutes 9pts 7 reb on 2/2 and 2 ast.  Carlisle gave Boban 17 minutes (there's no more KP) he gets 5 points but notice its on 0/1 shooting 3 reb. and 1 ast.
ONE shot. No offense is run to this man.  Zubac has a free run. 

Game 6 Mavs elimination loss - Zubac played 33 minutes Boban played 17 (No KP).  Uhh, Boban was the problem? Half the time he wasn't even on the floor against Zubac or Harrell!   
He still shot 4/7 with 6 reb. and an assist in those 17 minutes. Clearly Zubac was guarded by someone other than Boban and numbers suggest he did NOT kill Boban. 

You know this is factual because Boban still didn't get many minutes in general despite Porzingis going out, still less than Zubac in every game.   He could take advantage of Harrell who you acknowledge he was often killing.  He still sat on the bench and got the same low overall minutes, no matter how well he played when he was on the floor.  Coach had him sitting even while Harrell helped destroy the Mavs other defenders, just as Zubac did. 

How do you splain those facts professor dirkfan ?