Rethinking Harry Barnes

[StepBackJay]

I know it's a sin to think this but I will say it anyway. What we got for Barnes was essentially Jackson + Wright and WCS. Knowing what we know now I feel like 1 year of Barnes would have been superior to what we ended up getting. I do not believe Barnes would have opted out. Barnes as the PF in this lineup would have been pretty good and he would have been a trade chip at the trade deadline.

[dirkfansince1998]

But that´s not really about Barnes being a good player and more about the Mavs not using the capspace to get someone better. Not that they lacked options but we all know what happened in free agency.

[bartlettbear]

Barnes would be a great fit hopefully they can land a better third piece to go with the core of Luka, KP, Maxi, Hardaway and Seth. Everyone else could be moved if there is a real upgrade.

[ItsGoTime]

I said from the beginning that the trade would have been even had we gotten both JJ and Harry Giles. I still stand by that. HB would have been a pretty good consistent scorer for this team right now though. He's also an ironman that with him and THJ would've been pretty good IMO. One thing, we could have gotten WCS regardless of the trade. We also might have been able to extract more from teams in trade had we waited for the offseason.

[dirkfansince1998]

One thing that I always disliked about Barnes was him being a ballstopper. I had similar thoughts about THJ but he has proven himself to be a better passer and playmaker.
I think Lukas chemistry with the current wings is a lot better than last years with Matthews and Barnes.

[ItsGoTime]

One thing that I always disliked about Barnes was him being a ballstopper. I had similar thoughts about THJ but he has proven himself to be a better passer and playmaker.
I think Lukas chemistry with the current wings is a lot better than last years with Matthews and Barnes.

A few things, first, I wonder if the reason we traded HB is because he didn't want to play the role we wanted him to play going forward and he politely requested a trade. 

I also wonder if he would have become what he is now in Sac without being upset about it. He's a 15/5/2.4 in 35mpg guy there. Those assists (highest in his career on GSW usage which is 6-7.5% less) are another indication that his willingness to pass is evident and he doesn't seem too much like a ballstopper there. His % haven't changed much either, just is getting a few less shots per game. I do still wonder had he stayed, if he would play the same type of game he's playing there though.

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Makes me wonder if he had stayed, what would the rotation have been?
To start the season:
Luka/JB/JJB
THJ/Curry/Bro
HB/DFS/Roby
KP/Maxi/?
DP/Boban/?

Now?:
Luka/JB/JJB
Curry/Bro?/?
THJ/DFS/Roby?
HB/Maxi/?
KP/WCS/Boban

[StepBackJay]

It's hard to say how it would have worked out bc we don't know if Barnes would have accepted a different role in the offense. The case I am making is that the Mavs could have said well let's try it out for 6 months next season (if he opts in) and trade him if it's not working out. I think Barnes at PF in this offense could have been effective and the advantage of Barnes is that he's another guy that can get his own shot. I actually think he could have adjusted on offense. His defense is okay. not amazing altho I wonder if he could have picked it up with a renewed focus there. The rebounding would have been annoying still. I don't think that can be fixed.

[reckoner07]

I think people are forgetting that most of us sat around for a year and talked about how Barnes wasn't worth $25 million, then were thrilled when he was essentially traded for nothing (at the time). Since he's been more productive in Sacramento, some are second-guessing the trade. Barnes TS% was .542 in Dallas, lower during Luka's year, and is .576 in Sacramento. Presumably it would go up from 54% with this team... but I just don't see him as a $25m need for our cap.

[ItsGoTime]

He for sure wasn’t worth $25M, but he also wasn’t worth JJ, Wright and a TE either. Add HG to the trade and it was worth it and no need to talk about it anymore. As it turned out to be, we didn’t utilize the TE to it’s full potential or even it’s full value so here we are. 

Basically a badly lopsided trade where we can now see that Sac was pretty hot and heavy to get him based on the contract they gave him. We could have or even should have gotten much more for him. That or held on to him and squeeze more out of Sac or another team in the summer or at this TDL. If not, then he would be fine through the rest of the year and then be an expiring contract.

[reckoner07]

Nobody was giving more than that for Barnes at the time. We were tickled pink to get out of his contract for basically nothing, and got throw ins. We worried all year he was going to opt in. This is long before we thought Wright would be the best residual option after missing on top FAs.

[ItsGoTime]

Nobody was giving more than that for Barnes at the time. We were tickled pink to get out of his contract for basically nothing, and got throw ins.

Lots of assumption in here. We have no clue how long the Mavs were shopping HB. Maybe they took the first offer like NY did with KP? Maybe HB told them he wanted to be there so out of respect, they only dealt with them? No one has a clue as to the truthfulness to that statement. Also, that’s all the more reason to hold onto him and wait for a better offer.

Who is the “we” that was tickled pink? There were some that were indifferent that wanted to wait to see what we got with the TE before they passed judgement and others, like myself, that were upset with the return value, adding to the narrative that the FO has a very hard time when it comes to negotiations.

[Mavs2019]

The trade deadline was Feb.7th and we traded Barnes Feb. 6th. The Mavs did what you are supposed to do, when you have no intentions to re-sign a "UFA", especially in a losing season. Get us much value as you can for him.

I´d have liked to extract one more young asset in the deal, of which the Kings had plenty (Labissiere, Giles, Mason III), but ultimately you can´t fault the Mavs for that deal. Jackson was the 15th pick, 23 year old at the time and in his 2nd season. He could have come good for the Mavs. You do this often enough one of these "small" assets will come through. It´s a numbers game to a certain extent. The Mavs didn´t even play until recently.

Of course FA was disappointing to a large degree and already confirmed that the Mavs are not that good of an outside talent judge (especially when it comes to career trajectories/stages), unless it´s plain obvious. They are pretty good and fast, determining whether a player is good or not, once they have seen them up close for a few months. Probably knew Roby sucked two weeks into SummerLeague.

In FA though even all the missed targets largely turned into below expectation players very quickly like Dwight Howard. Between Howard switching teams so often, having Powell and signing washed-up guys that rejected us in their "prime, I´m not 100% sure whether Howard played for the Mavs or not.

[ItsGoTime]

The trade deadline was Feb.7th and we traded Barnes Feb. 6th. The Mavs did what you are supposed to do, when you have no intentions to re-sign a "UFA", especially in a losing season. Get us much value as you can for him.

So we had a full day to be able to find a better deal, or negotiate a better deal with Sac? A team that we now know really wanted him badly based on giving him a large deal. We have no idea if he would have still opted out. It’s probable given the deal Sac gave him that he accepted but changing the circumstances possibly changes the outcome (would have been tampering had the trade not happened, but we know the league wouldn’t have cared).

Last thing, so we got JJ as the only thing we couldn’t have had had we not traded HB and HB left in FA. We would have had JJ’s additional salary in the offseason as well though ($3.2M is not insignificant). While JJ is not a nothing burger, not sure why he is supposed to be some grand scheme player of much significance. He’s just as likely to be out of the league when his contract comes up than get another contract, IMO.

[Mavs2019]

The trade deadline was Feb.7th and we traded Barnes Feb. 6th. The Mavs did what you are supposed to do, when you have no intentions to re-sign a "UFA", especially in a losing season. Get us much value as you can for him.

So we had a full day to be able to find a better deal, or negotiate a better deal with Sac? A team that we now know really wanted him badly based on giving him a large deal. We have no idea if he would have still opted out. It’s probable given the deal Sac gave him that he accepted but changing the circumstances possibly changes the outcome (would have been tampering had the trade not happened, but we know the league wouldn’t have cared).

Last thing, so we got JJ as the only thing we couldn’t have had had we not traded HB and HB left in FA. We would have had JJ’s additional salary in the offseason as well though ($3.2M is not insignificant). While JJ is not a nothing burger, not sure why he is supposed to be some grand scheme player of much significance. He’s just as likely to be out of the league when his contract comes up than get another contract, IMO.

You didn´t know that Jackson wouldn´t improve. Yet I´d say he´s still a slight net positive in a future trade, cause he´s still young, fairly cheap and on an expiring RFA contract now. There is always somebody that can talk themselves into a player under such circumstances.

The Kings really wanting him also gave him and them all the leverage. If the Mavs had wanted to commit long-term to Barnes, he´d still be here.

Btw,

UFAs Oladipo and Holiday are two perfect examples of players that you have to evaluate and project sharply next summer. Given their age and injury history, they could go down like Deron Williams or have another great 5-7 years ahead of them.

[ItsGoTime]

You didn´t know that Jackson wouldn´t improve.

You had at least a bit of an idea when he got little playing time on a team where young guys were getting most all the playing time as long as they were showing they deserved to be out there. Sure, change of scenery and coaching might make a difference, who knows at that point. 

He might be a bit of something in a trade, who knows (for sure won’t be a focal point of a trade that returns more than a second rounder which is basically his best value in any other trade). That’s our hope at this point with him, cause he’s looking more like a decent injury replacement 3rd stringer which is why I said he’s just as likely to be out of the league when his contract comes up as he is to get a min contract.

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I´d have liked to extract one more young asset in the deal, of which the Kings had plenty (Labissiere, Giles, Mason III), but ultimately you can´t fault the Mavs for that deal.

I’ve been saying that from the beginning, except I’ve been saying that is the requirement for the trade to be even. You can fault the Mavs for that, in the same way that you praise them for the KP deal.

The notion that they had to make that trade or else you lose him for nothing, well...they did lose him for slightly more than nothing...maybe. If JJ finishes his contract and we don’t resign him, that is nothing. They didn’t have to make that deal, no deal has to be made. 

There is still no guarantee that HB will opt out that we know of and if he does, Sac would have had to tamper to let him know their desired deal before he makes the decision to opt out. Even then, there is a chance that once he does that, other teams possibly trump that offer (in a FA year that everyone had tons of money), so the Kings didn’t have all the leverage. That’s why waiting til the last minute is important in that negotiation, and having the ability to walk away knowing you might be able to salvage the relationship (if it was ruined) in the couple months leading up to the moment HB has to make the decision to opt in or out.

To the leverage point, can you please explain how wanting HB so bad is leverage for the Kings, as opposed to the Mavs? I can’t in any way understand that.

[Benskix2]

We didn't want him long term, and we didn't want him short term because we wanted to give Kemba Walker his money.

Harrison Barnes seems like a fantastic guy, but IMO he's just an average basketball player.  I think he's worse than DFS and Maxi at what we need from that position, and that's whose minutes he would be getting if he was still here, not Jackson or Wrights.  I don't miss watching him iso at all, and looking at his stats and how the Kings are doing this year I don't understand why anyone would want him back here.  Barnes just isn't quite good enough to be a foundation piece, and he doesn't have any specific skill that could make him a valuable role player on a championship team.

[ItsGoTime]

We didn't want him long term, and we didn't want him short term because we wanted to give Kemba Walker his money.

Harrison Barnes seems like a fantastic guy, but IMO he's just an average basketball player.  I think he's worse than DFS and Maxi at what we need from that position, and that's whose minutes he would be getting if he was still here, not Jackson or Wrights.  I don't miss watching him iso at all, and looking at his stats and how the Kings are doing this year I don't understand why anyone would want him back here.  Barnes just isn't quite good enough to be a foundation piece, and he doesn't have any specific skill that could make him a valuable role player on a championship team.

I agree with pretty much everything you said here. My thing is, we didn't get enough for him in the trade. Since we didn't get enough, there was no reason to trade him IMO. He may not be the guy we want here, but he is a starting caliber player. We knew Sac wanted him pretty badly, all we had to do was offer him the same deal they gave him then go to work on trading him with them, only this time he's locked up and we have every single bit of leverage. That declining contract ending at $18M in 3 more years is bad, there's no denying that, but it's what Sac wanted for him. Bogdanovic, Dedmon and Ariza for Barnes, THJ and GSW in that last offseason sounds about right. Or revisiting it later in the season (around Dec) as THJ shows some of his ability and the GSW shows to be a top second (edit: this trade would have had to happen in at least Dec, I think because of HB's newly signed deal, maybe it would have had to happen in Jan, which solidifies THJ's pretty good run and GSW's 31 pick). I don't understand why they wanted HB so bad, but they did, so there's no reason to think this trade wouldn't have been accepted by them at that point.

Luka/JB/JJB
Bog/Curry/Bro
Ariza/DFS/Roby
KP/Maxi/
DP/Dedmon/Boban

That's an amazing bench with a pretty good starting unit. Once DP goes down, we move DFS in to the starting lineup and KP to C. We then look for more wing depth.

[donzingis38]

Like Wes Matthews, Barnes also had to go. They were just a bad fit and also very frustrating to watch.

[Mavs2019]

You didn´t know that Jackson wouldn´t improve.

You had at least a bit of an idea when he got little playing time on a team where young guys were getting most all the playing time as long as they were showing they deserved to be out there. Sure, change of scenery and coaching might make a difference, who knows at that point. 

He might be a bit of something in a trade, who knows (for sure won’t be a focal point of a trade that returns more than a second rounder which is basically his best value in any other trade). That’s our hope at this point with him, cause he’s looking more like a decent injury replacement 3rd stringer which is why I said he’s just as likely to be out of the league when his contract comes up as he is to get a min contract.

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I´d have liked to extract one more young asset in the deal, of which the Kings had plenty (Labissiere, Giles, Mason III), but ultimately you can´t fault the Mavs for that deal.

I’ve been saying that from the beginning, except I’ve been saying that is the requirement for the trade to be even. You can fault the Mavs for that, in the same way that you praise them for the KP deal.

The notion that they had to make that trade or else you lose him for nothing, well...they did lose him for slightly more than nothing...maybe. If JJ finishes his contract and we don’t resign him, that is nothing. They didn’t have to make that deal, no deal has to be made. 

There is still no guarantee that HB will opt out that we know of and if he does, Sac would have had to tamper to let him know their desired deal before he makes the decision to opt out. Even then, there is a chance that once he does that, other teams possibly trump that offer (in a FA year that everyone had tons of money), so the Kings didn’t have all the leverage. That’s why waiting til the last minute is important in that negotiation, and having the ability to walk away knowing you might be able to salvage the relationship (if it was ruined) in the couple months leading up to the moment HB has to make the decision to opt in or out.

To the leverage point, can you please explain how wanting HB so bad is leverage for the Kings, as opposed to the Mavs? I can’t in any way understand that.

Cause they already know they are committed to offer Barnes 85/4. The Mavs hold the cards, if there is a big market for Barnes at 85/4, that the Kings had to fear. I don´t think there was.

There is also another layer to such a trade. The Mavs need to like the extra asset more than the pieces they have, since roster spots are limited.

Would the Kings have refused had the Mavs asked for Skal Labissiere? Probably not, but the Mavs often rather keep bench veteran #14 happy over giving that roster spot to a young "Maybe". They already had to release Mejri to make the trade work.

[Moviemavguy]

Barnes and Luka were a terrible fit. And Barnes just seemed to always come up short when you need him the most. He was a good player on a bad team. Glad we moved on.