Luka midrange game?

[hakeemfan]

Does Luka have a midrange game?  In the last game thread, dirkfansince1998 mentioned how Luka had a high percentage of those shots in Euroleague and it seems like a conscious decision not to do it in the NBA.

I looked at a few of his Euroleague highlights, and I see floaters and drives to the baskets, but not consistently seeing a drive, stop on a dime, rise up and hit a midrange shot like JeT and Dirk used to do.  Again, my empirical evidence is small, and hence asking others.

If he doesn't have it, he needs to work on it.  It's a much better option than the step back 3. His clutch numbers are very poor and IMO that's because a 3 and a call at the rim are both difficult to get in those situations.  IMO, he has all the tools for a stop/pull up midrange shot.  Look at the last 2 games where he drove back Holiday and Jackson.  If he could consistenly hit a jumper off that move, then he becomes even more difficult to guard and can become a much more efficient scorer to add to all the other things he already does incredibly well.

[DrMav]

I think it's an aspect of his game that he needs to work on, and I have confidence that he will.

This season we've seen Luka become an elite finisher at the rim leaving him both mid and long range to still improve from.  He could also stand to work on his FTs a bit more, and even to hone the floater as well. 

I'm interested in what he and the Mavs will want to work on over the course of the offseason. He's so unbelievably skilled at such a young age that he can obviously add things to his arsenal at a much more rapid than normal pace, so do you want him to focus on 1-2 things over the offseason or try and continue to expand his whole game but maybe at the cost of the gains being more modest. He's Luka though, maybe he can work on everything and be at a whole other level again next season.

If he does go the route of focusing on just 1-2 things, I think you could make an argument for any of those to work on. I personally want him to get his FT% up to 80%+ as a priority since he's a volume shooter and those are free points. After that, I think I'd take him working on his 3Pt% next. His is knocked down to an extent by the degree of difficulty of his shots, but even on the ones in "open" or "wide open" he only shoots 32.7% and 32.1% respectively per NBA.com.  

Ultimately he will need a mid-range game to go to for reliable scoring when the defenses tighten up in the playoffs so he definitely needs to add it, when is certainly the question.

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

Midrange is dead unless you’re historically great at it like Dirk. I hope he works on every part of his game but he will just need to improve his 3pt shooting and 3pt shot selection. He’s not Harden or Westbrook but he does play too much hero ball. He needs to become more Lebron and get everyone else involved at the start of games. 

(Caveat about not picking a z21yr old superstar)

Asking him to take more mid range shots will hurt his efficiency, not help it.

[dirkfansince1998]

People should go back to the scouting reports or watch some of his older games in spain. He was a good midrange shooter but with the transition to the NBA he made adjustments to his game and abandoned it in favor of 3s, layups and floaters. Not a question about him being able to shoot it.
Him taking less midrange shots is part of the reason why he is more efficient this year. He reduced the volume even more compared to last year.

[hakeemfan]

People should go back to the scouting reports or watch some of his older games in spain. He was a good midrange shooter but with the transition to the NBA he made adjustments to his game and abandoned it in favor of 3s, layups and floaters. Not a question about him being able to shoot it.
Him taking less midrange shots is part of the reason why he is more efficient this year. He reduced the volume even more compared to last year.

That’s why asked for some highlights. I did not see much. 

Taking less mid range and more step back 3s which he shot poorly in Europe and here is not a way to increase efficiency. 

For those saying that shot is dead tell that to Kawhi and Bron. If this is a conscious decision on Luka’s part then someone is not sitting down with him and showing him his poor 3 pt percentages.

[dirkfansince1998]

People should go back to the scouting reports or watch some of his older games in spain. He was a good midrange shooter but with the transition to the NBA he made adjustments to his game and abandoned it in favor of 3s, layups and floaters. Not a question about him being able to shoot it.
Him taking less midrange shots is part of the reason why he is more efficient this year. He reduced the volume even more compared to last year.

That’s why asked for some highlights. I did not see much. 

Taking less mid range and more step back 3s which he shot poorly in Europe and here is not a way to increase efficiency. 

For those saying that shot is dead tell that to Kawhi and Bron. If this is a conscious decision on Luka’s part then someone is not sitting down with him and showing him his poor 3 pt percentages.

Luka shooting 31.5% from 3 is more efficient than Kawhi shooting 43.7% from midrange. LBJ is shooting 36% from midrange. Not really sure how he entered the conversation.
I don´t think Luka would benefit from a higher midrange volume. Makes more sense to further improve his body and get in a shape that allows him to attack the rim for 30+ min all season long.
There obviously is a time and place for midrange shots but it shouldn´t be a focal point. For example down 1 with 10s to go. Take the highest percentage shot possible.

[hakeemfan]

People should go back to the scouting reports or watch some of his older games in spain. He was a good midrange shooter but with the transition to the NBA he made adjustments to his game and abandoned it in favor of 3s, layups and floaters. Not a question about him being able to shoot it.
Him taking less midrange shots is part of the reason why he is more efficient this year. He reduced the volume even more compared to last year.

That’s why asked for some highlights. I did not see much. 

Taking less mid range and more step back 3s which he shot poorly in Europe and here is not a way to increase efficiency. 

For those saying that shot is dead tell that to Kawhi and Bron. If this is a conscious decision on Luka’s part then someone is not sitting down with him and showing him his poor 3 pt percentages.

Luka shooting 31.5% from 3 is more efficient than Kawhi shooting 43.7% from midrange. LBJ is shooting 36% from midrange. Not really sure how he entered the conversation.
I don´t think Luka would benefit from a higher midrange volume. Makes more sense to further improve his body and get in a shape that allows him to attack the rim for 30+ min all season long.
There obviously is a time and place for midrange shots but it shouldn´t be a focal point. For example down 1 with 10s to go. Take the highest percentage shot possible.

Sorry but this kind of poor reasoning will mean more seasons wasted where Luka struggles in the clutch. 

No one is asking him to abandon the 3. Kawhi and Bron are well rounded scorers.  Do they not take 3 pt shots?  

Getting a bit more sculpted is always a good thing. However even Bron doesn’t get the same calls in the clutch. If Luka wants to take his game to the next level he has to focus on a mid range game.

[dirkfansince1998]

People should go back to the scouting reports or watch some of his older games in spain. He was a good midrange shooter but with the transition to the NBA he made adjustments to his game and abandoned it in favor of 3s, layups and floaters. Not a question about him being able to shoot it.
Him taking less midrange shots is part of the reason why he is more efficient this year. He reduced the volume even more compared to last year.

That’s why asked for some highlights. I did not see much. 

Taking less mid range and more step back 3s which he shot poorly in Europe and here is not a way to increase efficiency. 

For those saying that shot is dead tell that to Kawhi and Bron. If this is a conscious decision on Luka’s part then someone is not sitting down with him and showing him his poor 3 pt percentages.

Luka shooting 31.5% from 3 is more efficient than Kawhi shooting 43.7% from midrange. LBJ is shooting 36% from midrange. Not really sure how he entered the conversation.
I don´t think Luka would benefit from a higher midrange volume. Makes more sense to further improve his body and get in a shape that allows him to attack the rim for 30+ min all season long.
There obviously is a time and place for midrange shots but it shouldn´t be a focal point. For example down 1 with 10s to go. Take the highest percentage shot possible.

Sorry but this kind of poor reasoning will mean more seasons wasted where Luka struggles in the clutch. 

No one is asking him to abandon the 3. Kawhi and Bron are well rounded scorers.  Do they not take 3 pt shots?  

Getting a bit more sculpted is always a good thing. However even Bron doesn’t get the same calls in the clutch. If Luka wants to take his game to the next level he has to focus on a mid range game.

Poor reasoning? You brought up two player names. I listed their percentages on midrange jump shots and compared them to Lucas efficiency from 3. Turns out that both are less efficient. No one says that he shouldn´t improve his game but there are more important things. I think a less exhausted Luca with the energy to take it to the rim more often than he does right now is less reliant on the stepback and creates better scoring opportunities than a Luca that can shoot 43% from midrange.
You have been raving about post ups and midrange shooting for months without providing any stats to back it up. Try to make a convincing argument that the current Mavs with more post ups and midrange shooting would have a better offense. I don´t see it.
We can talk about clutch situations but the solution for the current struggles isn´t as easy as just taking more midrange shots. Luka was a great clutch scorer last season and his shot selection did not change.

[MrGoat]

He already has a midrange game, you saw it a lot more in Euroleague though. I think they are making a conscious decision not to use it. If anything he just needs to keep improving his conditioning

[hakeemfan]

hakeemfan

I don’t know how Bron’s fade-away shots off his post ups are being classified. Maybe that’s not counted as a midrange game.  I know his post ups late in games where he gets much better shots are not classified as mid range shots. 

If Luka were doing any of those things well I would not be asking him to change a thing. 

You have been going for a few years now on how it is better to shoot a certain percentage from3 as opposed to a higher percentage from 2. That might be good for 3 quarters. In the clutch, teams that win know how to get better shots. Throw GS out of that conversation with 3 generational shooters on the court together. 


Teams that rely on their leader shooting a high volume poor 3 pt percentage will have a ceiling on their growth unless that leader changes his game to add an element that he currently does not have.

[dirkfansince1998]

hakeemfan

I don’t know how Bron’s fade-away shots off his post ups are being classified. Maybe that’s not counted as a midrange game.  I know his post ups late in games where he gets much better shots are not classified as mid range shots. 

If Luka were doing any of those things well I would not be asking him to change a thing. 

You have been going for a few years now on how it is better to shoot a certain percentage from3 as opposed to a higher percentage from 2. That might be good for 3 quarters. In the clutch, teams that win know how to get better shots. Throw GS out of that conversation with 3 generational shooters on the court together. 


Teams that rely on their leader shooting a high volume poor 3 pt percentage will have a ceiling on their growth unless that leader changes his game to add an element that he currently does not have.

Because it is the truth. 33% from 3 equals 50% from 2. That´s a fact. To quote Mark Cuban. You are just talking generalities.

"In the clutch teams that win know how to get better shots." What is a better shot? Best possible shot is a dunk/layup or FT. Followed by corner 3s. Midrange shots are way down the list. I want the Mavs to take the best possible shot. Obviously a different story if you are talking about a single possession.

GS is a bad example because the actually had a high midrange volume in recent years.
I don´t want Luka to rely on a high volume from 3. I want him to have the highest possible volume in the paint.

[hakeemfan]

No. There is no generality. Theoretically what you say is correct but the game is not played theoretically. Teams that rely on the 3s or calls in the paint without the ability to hit better shots tend to fail as they go deeper in the playoffs.

This is true even if your star is good 3 pt shooter. In our case that is not even true.

[ClutchDirk]

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StarterBench=Starters&TeamID=1610612742

Luka needs to keep driving and we need to add 1 deadly shooter who can play above average defense...

[dirkfansince1998]

No. There is no generality. Theoretically what you say is correct but the game is not played theoretically.  Teams that rely on the 3s or calls in the paint without the ability to hit better shots tend to fail as they go deeper in the playoffs.

This is true even if your star is good 3 pt shooter. In our case that is not even true.

Again back it up. Show me the numbers and examples. Explain what a better shot is. 8ft floater vs 16ft jumper? Step back 3s vs fadeaway? Who is failing in the playoffs and why? Is shot selection the only reason? Lack of talent/defense?
What I am saying is not only true in theory. That´s why the Mavs have the best offense in the league. If you ever wondered why the Mavs are losing games. It is not because of their offense. That´s why the whole league has adapted and teams are taking more and more 3s. That´s why offensive ratings are getting higher and higher compared to prior eras.
What´s the difference between an iso at the ellbow that leads to a contested long 2 (your example Kawhi makes 44% of them) and an iso step back 3 for 32%. For a single possession I would take the 2, no question but as a go to move for the whole game it is the 3.

[hakeemfan]

What´s the difference between an iso at the ellbow that leads to a contested long 2 (your example Kawhi makes 44% of them) and an iso step back 3 for 32%. For a single possession I would take the 2, no question but as a go to move for the whole game it is the 3.

—-

That is exactly my point. For a single possession which is a sequence of what most last minute games come down to, even you would take the 2. If that is the case would it not behove Luka to have that in his arsenal where he feels confident to go to it in the clutch? You can’t just expect him to do that in the clutch if he is not doing it at other points in the game Again, I am not asking him to abandon the 3s.

If you are saying that he can post up and generate some easier shots for himself or some easier 3s for his teammates if they double him in the post, than go for a traditional mid range game, that is perfectly fine too.

All I am saying is relying on 3s when you are a poor 3 pt shooter or driving and expecting calls that even Harden does not get as his teams go deeper into the playoffs and another stud is guarding you, has a much lower ceiling than what Luka is capable of reaching.

[ItsGoTime]

You can’t just expect him to do that in the clutch if he is not doing it at other points in the game  Again, I am not asking him to abandon the 3s.

This is the part that I’ve been waiting to be said. I don’t think using 3’s all game then hard switching to 2’s is a good solution. Predictability is what good defenders prey on.

[dirkfansince1998]

What´s the difference between an iso at the ellbow that leads to a contested long 2 (your example Kawhi makes 44% of them) and an iso step back 3 for 32%. For a single possession I would take the 2, no question but as a go to move for the whole game it is the 3.

—-

That is exactly my point. For a single possession which is a sequence of what most last minute games come down to, even you would take the 2.  If that is the case would it not behove Luka to have that in his arsenal where he feels confident to go to it in the clutch?  You can’t just expect him to do that in the clutch if he is not doing it at other points in the game  Again, I am not asking him to abandon the 3s.

If you are saying that he can post up and generate some easier shots for himself or some easier 3s for his teammates if they double him in the post, than go for a traditional mid range game, that is perfectly fine too.

All I am saying is relying on 3s when you are a poor 3 pt shooter or driving and expecting calls that even Harden does not get as his teams go deeper into the playoffs and another stud is guarding you, has a much lower ceiling than what Luka is capable of reaching.

I think in that single possession case I still prefer a drive and finish in the paint and if that´s not possible a floater or a drawn double team and pass to an open shooter over an contested long two.
And if he increases his midrange volume for the whole game you have to consider the overall loss of points.
Let´s say he really improves his midrange game and reaches Kawhis level. He takes 100 of them instead of of 3s.
Makes 88 points on 44% from midrange. On the same amount of 3s he would score 96 points at his current percentage. Let´s say he can improve that number to 35% and he suddenly generates 105 points.
It´s obviously not that easy because we cannot ignore the reaction of defenders, fouls, turnovers and more but overall it is very likely that the Mavs will lose points if Luka increases his midrange volume even if he reaches elite percentages.
An added skill like an improved pull up jumper is never a bad thing because it opens up more opportunities but the question is if it as important as you think. Especially if the volume stays low.

[hakeemfan]

Agreed. I mentioned the importance of a pull up 2 only in terms of a counter that Luka can go to confidently. I didn’t state that has to form the major volume of his shots. But if he has that counter in his game and shows the confidence to execute it in the clutch, then it opens up the drive and the 3 pt shots also much more.

Dirk in the 2011 Finals. That 3 pt shot late in Game 2. Then a layup to win it. A layup to win Game 4. Huge 3 pt shot in Game 5 and a huge set of 2 pt shots in Game 6 in the 4th. You need variety. Else the opponent will just sit on you at the 3 pt line, then keep fouling you on the drive and force the refs to blow the whistle As mentioned even Harden does not get those calls as the playoffs progress.

[dmavs4life03]

I dont think luka should be singled out here. when/if he adds the terry pull up with consistency, its gonna make him that much harder to defend. However as a team, besides Curry, we dont have consistent midrange bucket makers as our offense seems to be around 3s and dunks/layups or FTAs. This makes us a bit predictable against teams that study us and pack the paint while still being somewhat active on the perimeter. When a Mav drives into the paint, 9 times outta 10 its gonna be to pass out to the corners or wings for a 3PTA.  And better teams plan for this and pick off the passes or force a rushed 3. 

What if our "great offense" added some pull up plays where a screen is used by say WCS or Boban to get "insert player" a open midrange shot that they practice and knock down. Then also it can be played off for P&R/post ups in the paint and open up the 3 point line some. Some solid screens for Curry/KP/THJ/Brunson/Luka to get up shots w/ actual size on the wings would add to our"historic offense" and make it able to get a bucket when the whisles not blowing, the 3s aren't falling, and if the shot is missed, Boban/KP/Maxi/WCS can maybe get a O rebound or tipout or putback. The offense needs either some better screening for midrange or some post ups. That plus good defense wins tight playoff games.

[SwisherPrice]

The mid-range game is frowned upon in general among the NBA. It's silly but it is what it is. Players would rather take a contested stepback three over a wide open mid-range jumper.

Luka needs to figure something out though. After his stats overseas and two seasons in the NBA, it's looking more and more that he will never be a good 3-pt shooter in this league. Probably more in the mold of a Kobe/Iverson who will take a lot of threes despite being in the low 30%