DoDo on the rise: Who's better than RoCo?

[Scott41theMavs]

Look, I'm going to cede this argument for several reasons on several levels:
1) I like DFS. He is one of my five or six favorite current Mavs.
2) Of the three objectively sub-par starters on this team, he is by a pretty big margin the least problematic, and a big part of why he's problematic is the other two subpar starters. 
3) I have consistently said that securing him at a very inexpensive contract was one of the best moves of the offseason. You could argue that it was the MBT's single greatest move this offseason if you don't cheat and include KP, which was not an offseason move *at all.* 
4) Of the three subpar starters, he is by far the one who would be the least problematic to leave in the starting lineup if upgrades were made. 

On the other hand (parting shots, last words over the shoulder, etc.), 
1) Using DFS as an argument for not getting RoCo is a bad faith argument in my book, because many people on the board have argued that our biggest need is another rangy 3-and-D wing. Who is that guy replacing in the starting lineup if not DFS? RoCo is the best non-star 3-and-D wing in the league. Referring to him as "just a roleplayer" is disingenuous. 3-and-D wings are at their highest premium in NBA history. Had RoCo signed his contract at a later date than he did, he would have gotten a crap-ton more money. THJ money, to be honest. And the solitary reason that he might not be a hot trade commodity at the amount is his injury issues. Last time I checked, DFS missed nearly an entire season with an injury. 
2) What's the best thing about RoCo? It's not his 3-point shooting. It's his manful, stout defense. That was why I made my statement earlier about DRPM. He's having a very down year in that. The last two, he has been one of the league leaders. DFS is negative in that right now as well. DFS is a good, hard-working defender. He is ***no*** RoCo.

V, I'm actually grateful to you for this thread. It's helped me to clarify my thinking that by far the Mavs' single biggest roster problem is THJ - a guy you can't afford not to play lest his trade value crater into the ranges of pre-2019 Wiggins albatross-hood, who can't do crap coming off the bench, and who can't be relied upon in the playoffs. He will either be traded in 2020 or expire in 2021, so he's a temporary problem. But definitely one the Mavs must solve in some way to make noise in this year's playoffs.

[Kammrath]

Player A: +3.1 on/off
Player B: -3.5 on/off

[vfromlmf]

Using DFS as an argument for not getting RoCo is a bad faith argument in my book, because many people on the board have argued that our biggest need is another rangy 3-and-D wing. Who is that guy replacing in the starting lineup if not DFS?

To be clear, that was never my argument. And I also happen to think the Mavs biggest need is 3D wing. But it has nothing to do with who starts. 

They need another wing to match up with the Clippers (and Celtics) as a small-ball four. So, RoCo wouldn’t replace DFS. He and DFS would combine replace Powell when the Mavs go small and Porzingis is the five. Doesn’t matter who starts. 

So again, the point of the post was to (1) point out how well DFS is playing and how valuable he is to this team ...and (2) to throw a little shade on a poster or two who think Covington would be some massive upgrade to be coveted over the guy we have. 

In my view the Mavs could use both. But DFS is no slouch.

---

the Mavs' single biggest roster problem is THJ

The Mavs are going to need THJ or replace him with a better 6’ 6ish wing. That’s going to be tough. They just have to hope Doncic can get him lots of catch & shoot opportunities. 

IMHO, upgrading THJ doesn’t mean they don’t still need another wing. They need THJ + DFS + ?

[fifteenth]

I have to say, I am really sick of the craze of media and folks following suit, of overusing the term "gaslighting" most of you really don't understand what it really means. It is a form of DEEP psychological torture, with long periods of planning to make someone lose their minds. I see so many buzzfeed articles claiming every woman's ex was gaslighting her... such bs... someone being a jerk, or someone disagreeing with you is NOT gaslighting...

Your explanation fits the definition. How are people using it on social media? What was Scott trying to say by using that term? I have no idea.

[ItsGoTime]

I have to say, I am really sick of the craze of media and folks following suit, of overusing the term "gaslighting" most of you really don't understand what it really means. It is a form of DEEP psychological torture, with long periods of planning to make someone lose their minds. I see so many buzzfeed articles claiming every woman's ex was gaslighting her... such bs... someone being a jerk, or someone disagreeing with you is NOT gaslighting...

Your explanation fits the definition. How are people using it on social media? What was Scott trying to say by using that term? I have no idea.

Yes, what is this “gaslighting” and how is it done. I want to get back at Fifteenth for ever disagreeing with me!

[Kammrath]

I have to say, I am really sick of the craze of media and folks following suit, of overusing the term "gaslighting" most of you really don't understand what it really means. It is a form of DEEP psychological torture, with long periods of planning to make someone lose their minds. I see so many buzzfeed articles claiming every woman's ex was gaslighting her... such bs... someone being a jerk, or someone disagreeing with you is NOT gaslighting...

Your ex did not gaslight you... if you are not in a mental ward... you were not gaslighted... 

infact almost EVERY instance people use this term, they are using it wrong. 

So I agree that people often misuse the term and have no idea what they are talking about. It has become quite "pop culture" and in the process is being watered down.  

However, I fundamentally disagree as well. As a pastor I find myself in a lot of counseling situations where I get to see behind the veil of human behavior and I can say 100% without a doubt, based on a decade plus of experience that gaslighting is becoming more and more prevalent in our culture. We live in a culture that is currently nurturing psychopathic narcissistic tendencies in almost every corner. Narcissists love to use gaslighting as a tactic to manipulate and it really is becoming ubiquitous in our culture. The world's foremost expert on narcissism (Sam Vaknin, a recovering narcissist himself) suspects that most CEOs and leaders in our culture are diagnose-able narcissists. These men and women are then culture-setters for the rest of society. Their dysfunction (which is rewarded in many contexts) then spreads to the rest of us. A sort of "social-contagion" one might say.

I have come to see that narcissism and psychopathy are a spectrum (as well as gaslighting). Narcissism or gaslighting are not black/white, on/off kind of binary things (to look at them in such a way is to use old and outdated forms of identification and diagnosis). There are of course the most extreme ends and then there are much less extreme forms (and then everything in between). But just because the extreme ends exist (which you are talking about) does not mean that less extreme forms are not narcissism or gaslighting in their own way.

For the record, I do NOT think Fif was gaslighting whatsoever and I think the term was completely misused here. However, I do think gaslighting can very easily exist on a message board and is used relatively often by people trying to manipulate a debate by purposely confusing the reality of what has been said or is being said. Gaslighting at its heart is just causing people to doubt themselves and their own memory and perception. 

Anyways, thanks for letting me stand on my soap box.

P.S. Check out this video for some of the best analysis on narcissism you will find:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJOthJ-bWrU

[radioaktiv]

I'd like to see more stats, please.  We're talking about a comparison of 3-and-D players but the defense part isn't represented in those stats.  Further more, DFS has an advantage of playing with a generational playmaker who elevates his teammates' play, plays for a better coach and is in a better organization.

[dirkfansince1998]

I'd like to see more stats, please.  We're talking about a comparison of 3-and-D players but the defense part isn't represented in those stats.  Further more, DFS has an advantage of playing with a generational playmaker who elevates his teammates' play, plays for a better coach and is in a better organization.

This sums it up. One guy is asked to be the 3rd option on offense. The other gets wide open 3s and layups. One guy has made an all defense 1st team and was in the DPOY conversation prior to his injury. The other makes nice hustle plays.
That said. It seems like post knee surgery RoCo has lost a step on defense. He plays even more minutes at PF and isn´t as quick as he used to be.

[Mavs2019]

I love DFS and he has come on a lot offensively, but defensively he´s really weird. He defends some guys really well, and against others he´s pretty bad. It´s not even a simple small (PG) or big (PF/C) equation. We could use another defender that is consistently at a very high level, whether it´s a quick SG/SF or a strong PF/C.

[vfromlmf]

I'd like to see more stats, please. 

2019-20 NBA Math 
Offensive Points Added (OPA) - Defensive Points Saved (DPS) - Total Points Added (TPA)

DFS - 755 MIN - 10.97 OPA - 7.83 DPS - 18.80 TPA (better)
RoCo - 750 MIN - 0.00 OPA - 3.02 DPS - 3.02 TPA

ESPN Defensive Real Plus/Minus

DFS - .094 (better)
RoCo - 1.38

Of course, I'll add, evaluating a player's defensive impact based on stats alone is a fools errand. But I think it's just as disingenuous to rely on reputation. RoCo made a name for himself on a winning team in a big media market (Philly). No doubt he's a strong defender, but I have a hunch, if the Mavs maintain 55 - 56 win pace with DFS getting third-most minutes while defending the opponent's best player, his reputation will rise. 

Most importantly, in the end, it's all about the team. Neither JET nor JJB were the best guards in the league when the Mavs won a championship. But they were the best guards for the Mavs. And they wouldn't have a title without both of them.

[Hooper21]

I have to say, I am really sick of the craze of media and folks following suit, of overusing the term "gaslighting" most of you really don't understand what it really means. It is a form of DEEP psychological torture, with long periods of planning to make someone lose their minds. I see so many buzzfeed articles claiming every woman's ex was gaslighting her... such bs... someone being a jerk, or someone disagreeing with you is NOT gaslighting...

Your explanation fits the definition. How are people using it on social media? What was Scott trying to say by using that term? I have no idea.

Gaslighting?

[ItsGoTime]

Most importantly, in the end, it's all about the team. Neither JET nor JJB were the best guards in the league when the Mavs won a championship. But they were the best guards for the Mavs. And they wouldn't have a title without both of them.

I think this comes into play once every 3-4 years or so. Otherwise, it's mostly the star power and chemistry at the right time that wins titles. Until this last year's Raptors, the 2011 Mavs were the last team to win without the big star power. Star power alone doesn't win it though as seen with the Celtics in recent years, you do have to have chemistry with the team as well. 

We currently have close to the same star power as any other team out there in the sense that we have 2 guys that, while young in the process, are quickly gaining the respect that other teams stars get. We have chemistry with the group we have. However, I don't think we have the respected complimentary pieces to do what other teams like the Lakers/Clippers/Bucks/Sixers/Celtics will be able to do in the playoffs. 

There are a few names that are reported to be available that have that respect IMO. We don't have to get all those players right away, but it's hard for me to imagine the thought of standing pat when there are guys out there that have the pedigree to make this team much better. Doesn't mean getting them will make the team much better, and that bridge could be crossed (with better pedigree and trade valued talent) when it comes. 

Better players are just better.

[Scott41theMavs]

My understanding of gaslighting in a pop-culture sense is that someone consistently asserts something that both he and the listener know is contrary to the truth, and sets up a narrative that the other person must be losing their mind, because of course it's this way (the lie) and not that way, when all sensory evidence points to the truth. 
 
No, I don't believe that Fif was literally gaslighting me even in that sense. I was using it as a rhetorical device. Fif has said over and over again that 1) I am selling the non-Luka/KP 2019/20 Mavs short by referring to them as a crew of contending team 7th men, 2) that Powell can be an adequate big-man starter on a contending team and doesn't need to be upgraded, and 3) that DFS is a just a superstar (I'm exaggerating his position, but you get my point) and doesn't need to be upgraded. 
 
Regarding #1, I have become convinced in recent games that Curry is 6th-man level. He can create his own shot well enough and play defense well enough, in addition to his fantastic shooting, that you can make him your microwave off the bench. What showed us this, btw, is that he doesn't have to wrestle the ball out of Brunson's hands to do his thing with Luka injured. So Fif was right on a certain level, but he was essentially asserting that no, the Mavs have several non-Luka/KP starter-worthy players. He gets all mad that I dismiss that opinion, because he believes that it is a valid basketball opinion worthy of respect within Mavs fandom. I respect Fif. I will never respect that opinion. I find it gravely intelligence-insulting. I refer to it rhetorically as "gaslighting" because it rings reminiscent of past MBT "we love our boys in blue" drivel which actually meant, "we aren't competent enough to upgrade." But Fif isn't the MBT. He's just a usually-intelligent fan trying to get a completely unfounded and unreasonable opinion to the table of reasonable Mavs-fan opinions. I get his support for our boys in blue and his enthusiasm for the team. I just don’t think he has to be dumb or expect the rest of us to be dumb to do that.
 
Regarding #2, we all know Powell is a top-flight rim-roller. I watched for the BBIQ/switching ability that was recommended to me (by someone other than Fif, IIRC) in the last couple of games. Yes, Powell is a capable perimeter switcher. He still can’t stop perimeter players as well as Maxi can. No, he is not nearly strong enough (will never have enough leverage in his body) to defend the post. No, he cannot defend the rim. He rebounds extremely poorly for someone playing in the big (four/five) positions. He has never shot the ball well enough consistently from 3 to the point that you actually want him taking that shot, which makes him extremely limited offensively. Those last five realities, especially the latter four, make it, to me, a truly withering, blasting insult to the intelligence to assert that Powell can fill the four or five starting position for a contending team – regardless of who the other four starters are.
 
#3 – I’ve said I like DFS. I love his effort, his contract, his court-burns, and his offensive rebounds. I need him to shoot over 36% for the length of a season to love his three-pointer. If he can do that, and get a bit better on defense, then yes, he can certainly remain the Mavs’ starting three into Luka and KP’s contention years – as long as THJ and Powell are massively upgraded. Cf. 1 & 2.
 
I will never accept an intelligence-insulting opinion as a reasonable, conventionally-acceptable opinion. If that makes me a bad poster, so be it. I still like Fif and will enjoy his posts when he isn’t gasl… I mean, shoving intelligence-insulting opinions down my throat.

[dirkfansince1998]

RoCo made a name for himself on a winning team in a big media market (Philly).

Difference between both is that RoCo had incredible advanced stats in Philly. Finished 4th (+4.32) in DRPM in 2017 and 3rd (+4.24) in 2018.  In 2018 he had the team best on/off numbers (better than Embiid). Prior to his injury he ranked 3rd in DRAPM last season.

[fifteenth]

My understanding of gaslighting in a pop-culture sense is that someone consistently asserts something that both he and the listener know is contrary to the truth, and sets up a narrative that the other person must be losing their mind, because of course it's this way (the lie) and not that way, when all sensory evidence points to the truth. 

I did nothing like this. I very much believe what I say. 

No, I don't believe that Fif was literally gaslighting me even in that sense. I was using it as a rhetorical device.

I didn't literally, or in any non-literal way, do this. That being the case, I don't understand how the accusation is a rhetorical device.

So Fif was right on a certain level, but he was essentially asserting that no, the Mavs have several non-Luka/KP starter-worthy players. He gets all mad that I dismiss that opinion, because he believes that it is a valid basketball opinion worthy of respect within Mavs fandom. I respect Fif. I will never respect that opinion. I find it gravely intelligence-insulting. I refer to it rhetorically as "gaslighting" because it rings reminiscent of past MBT "we love our boys in blue" drivel which actually meant, "we aren't competent enough to upgrade." But Fif isn't the MBT. He's just a usually-intelligent fan trying to get a completely unfounded and unreasonable opinion to the table of reasonable Mavs-fan opinions. I get his support for our boys in blue and his enthusiasm for the team. I just don’t think he has to be dumb or expect the rest of us to be dumb to do that.

I have never been mad, until this post that I'm responding to, at anything you've posted. I simply make arguments regarding what I actually think. 

I'm going to be blunt. This thing you're telling us about how you handle "intelligence insulting opinions" is just stupid. None of us have the foresight to see which of our opinions will prove themselves to be great ones in hindsight. It's probably best to let things play out a bit before plastering "intelligence insulting" over a bunch of fan opinions. 

It's probably bad form for me to defend myself. I should just blow it off and let you be. I'd like to claim that I don't care what you think about my opinions, but obviously that's not true since you have actually made me mad for once. 

But it's my opinion that this presentation you just made about "intelligence insulting opinions" and how to interact with "them" is not a component of good discussion. 

Just for free, the reason Donnie says "we love our boys in blue" is because he will never say a bad word about a player under his employ. He will always "love them" right up until he trades them or fails to resign them. He does this for two reasons: He's not going to lower the value of any of his players, and he's actually a respectful dude.

[vfromlmf]

Prior to his injury he ranked 3rd in DRAPM last season.

Indeed, he was a strong defender in Philly. Of course, he was traded (upgraded) but that doesn't take away from his play. 

Now, he had to be removed from the starting lineup for being late to a team event, while he's supposedly playing with an MVP-candidate and top-15 scoring wing, and his team has lost 8 in a row.

Is he the same player? Or does this just underscore he's a role player and team success is really predicated on a lot more?

[fifteenth]

I will never accept an intelligence-insulting opinion as a reasonable, conventionally-acceptable opinion. If that makes me a bad poster, so be it. I still like Fif and will enjoy his posts when he isn’t gasl… I mean, shoving intelligence-insulting opinions down my throat.

Why the need to label opinions? And again with the gas-lighting thing. I don't shove opinions down your throat, I type them onto a fan message board.

[omahen]

Now, he had to be removed from the starting lineup for being late to a team event, while he's supposedly playing with an MVP-candidate and top-15 scoring wing, and his team has lost 8 in a row.

Or perhaps KAT is MVP candidate in his imagination only (yours too?), while the top 15 scoring wing is actually not bringing a lot of positive things. They both have great stats that don't make the team better. Sort of like Westbrook

[dirkfansince1998]

Prior to his injury he ranked 3rd in DRAPM last season.

Indeed, he was a strong defender in Philly. Of course, he was traded (upgraded) but that doesn't take away from his play. 

Now, he had to be removed from the starting lineup for being late to a team event, while he's supposedly playing with an MVP-candidate and top-15 scoring wing, and his team has lost 8 in a row.

Is he the same player? Or does this just underscore he's a role player and team success is really predicated on a lot more?

From the eyetest (only 2-3 games) and the numbers I think he is asked to do to much. Offense is as good or even slightly better compared to previous years. He just isn´t getting as many easy catch and shoot attempts.
Defense is clearly worse. Might be related to his teammates (Towns and Wiggins instead of Embiid and Simmons) but I don´t think that´s the case. He was just as good in a small sample size with the Wolves last year. Prior to his arrival the Wolves were among the 10 worst defensive teams in the league. In the 22 games he played last year they had a top 5 defense. He averaged 2.1 stls / 1.3 blks last year. This year he is down to 1.5 stls / 0.8 blks.
I think his DRPM is at least slightly impacted by him being listed as a PF instead of a SF. Probably getting punished for mediocre rebounding numbers.
Nevertheless his defense is worse. He never was the best on ball defender (still really good) and clearly lost some lateral quickness. His help defense was second only to prime Draymond in the last few years. Again...he is still good but lost a step.
Will be interesting to see if his quickness returns. Otherwise he might end up as Wes Matthews 2.0.

[Scott41theMavs]

If RoCo has indeed lost a step after surgery, then the OP is correct - DFS is better. Nor would I overpay in trade to get RoCo then, for sure. I would want the Mavs to do their scouting homework before trading for him.