A Few Thoughts on Mavs 102, Spurs 98

[mavsluvr]

Mavs Edge Spurs, End Home Losing Streak in Luka Return

It wasn't the prettiest of games, but Luka was back, the Mavericks got the W, and all was right with the world. 


Game Story 

There wasn't much of a story arc to this game. The Mavs mostly maintained a small advantage, and occasionally lost it or had it reduced with a few Spurs runs. They reached a double-digit lead at the end of the third quarter, but surrendered it with an 8-0 San Antonio burst to end the period. In the fourth, Dallas accumulated a game-high 17-point margin with 4:07 left, but failed to score again, and ended the game with six missed shots, two missed free throws, two turnovers, and a goaltending violation, on the way to giving up 13 consecutive points to the Spurs. After the Toronto meltdown in the previous game, I was a bit dismayed to see the Mavericks lose their composure against a full-court press again, but after all, they did win, so I don't want to get too down on them. Let's just say they might need to grab a little practice time breaking presses. 


Analytics

The Mavs got 7 more shots up than the Spurs, and had a much more efficient shot attempt distribution. Dallas ended the game +24 in points from threes, and -20 in points from twos. In addition to shooting 40% from long range for 16 made threes, the Mavericks won the possession game with a 13-5 advantage in offensive rebounding (4 from Maxi, 3 each from DFS and Luka) and a 12-4 difference in second-chance points. They were also able to capitalize on turnovers, earning 24 points from San Antonio giveaways, while giving up only 16 as a result of their own. The Spurs, on the other hand, had a 22-8 edge in fast-break points, taking advantage of the Mavs' turnovers. 


Players

Porzingis (35 min). KP had a pretty bad first half, and just couldn't seem to establish a rhythm. He came out stronger in the second half. Although he was still missing shots (4-15), he is starting to give us a sense of what the team might be when he ultimately gets it together. He had back-to-back threes at one point, and executed a rare big-to-big alley oop with Powell that Carlisle termed "pretty f'ing cool." 

The TNT crew kept harping on KP's failure to post up, as if the game were played in their eras. Rick gave a postgame rant,  asserting that they don't want KP or anyone else posting up, as a general matter, as the post-up is a low percentage play. Rick said Luka can post up if he has a small guy on him, and Rick is okay with KP posting up once in a while, but posting up is not part of their game plan. They want guys on the perimeter, or getting to the basket instead. FWIW, Chuck Cooperstein disagreed in theory, opining that big men who can post up are "devastating," but agreed that KP does not have the skills to make it work. So, there we have it. 

DFS (33 min). Dorian quietly played an outstanding game. He didn't stuff the stat sheet (13 points, 6 rebounds, 1 block), but had a very positive impact on the game with excellent fundamentals, and he did grab a little limelight with three beautiful threes. The kick-out pass to DFS in the corner is becoming one of the staples of the offense. 

Luka (33 min). Luka looked a little rusty, as was to be expected, and didn't shoot well (9-23), but still ended up with a 23-10-8 line. He seemed a little winded at the end of the game, and admitted in the postgame sideline interview that he was "so tired," but looked remarkably good for a guy who hadn't played in a couple of weeks and was on his first game back from injury. What a thrill to have the Slovenian back in the saddle!

Maxi (31 min). Kleber played starter minutes, had a couple of exciting threes, and was active on the boards with 12 rebounds, 4 of them offensive. Powell (30 min). Dwight exhibited his excellent screening and rolling games to great advantage, and, as often occurs, had the team's highest +/- (+15). He was a little undersized to be guarding Aldridge, but did his best to make up for it on the offensive end. Hardaway (28 min) was outstanding, and was the team's second leading scorer with 17 points. He also contributed in other ways, and showed off his growing chemistry with Luka. He did head-scratchingly dribble the ball all the way down the court and out of bounds during the stretch sequence, but I guess we needn't dwell on that. Seth (16 min) didn't score, but had a candidate for play of the game, with a behind-the-back pass to Luka that had Doncic laughing even while he dunked. Not to be outdone, Luka returned the favor to Seth later in the game, behind-the-back and all. 

Spurs. San Antonio still has a number of good players (Aldridge, DeRozan, Carroll, Belinelli, Gay, Mills, for a few examples), but they looked like a team at the end of their cycle. There was a surprising lack of intensity for a Pop team, and the Mavs looked the better side on the night. Mavs-Spurs was one of the league's great rivalries, and hopefully both teams will be good at the same time again sometime, for a revival of a titanic sports feud. 


Remarks

The Mavs displayed a certain lack of energy that has been characteristic of their home play, and was a little surprising after the Toronto experience. However, it was wonderful to welcome Luka back, and it was also reassuring to see the Mavericks pull out a win, despite not playing that well. The squad brought a 3-home-game losing streak to an end, and hopefully this will be a harbinger of an uptick in performance at the AAC. 


Next. Golden State on Saturday in San Francisco, followed by the Lakers in LA the next day. 

Hope everyone had a great Christmas!  Go Mavs!

[hakeemfan]

How about some pinch post sets out of the high post for KP? Similar to Jokic. There can be a happy medium between not wanting to post up and just having KP as a 3 pt shooter. He is a versatile player and 7’3”. Maybe you won’t get the same assists as Jokic but IMO they can run some more sets every quarter to take advantage of his size and versatility.

[fifteenth]

Chuck Cooperstein disagreed in theory, opining that big men who can post up are "devastating,"

LOL, sorry Coop, I'll hitch my wagon to Rick's take on how the Mavs should play the game.

[hakeemfan]

Chuck Cooperstein disagreed in theory, opining that big men who can post up are "devastating,"

LOL, sorry Coop, I'll hitch my wagon to Rick's take on how the Mavs should play the game.

 

Coop is not wrong though. Having a post up game was what made Dirk grow into a complete player.  I don’t think KP has the same base strength as Dirk did though. Hence would like to see some more face the basket type high post sets for him.  

This team with their two unique talents is relatively new though. Rick will add some wrinkles as time goes on to take advantage.

[fifteenth]

Coop is not wrong though. Having a post up game was what made Dirk grow into a complete player.  

KP isn't Dirk and the NBA isn't the same. KP is playing like a 7'3" shooting guard. Don't close out, he'll nail his open look. Close out on him and he'll floor the ball and dunk with one dribble. He's being coached to take high value shots and it's starting to work. We don't need to mold him into what other tall guys have been.

[DanSchwartzgan]

We saw a little more experimentation with lineups last night as there was only one minutes of game time with neither KP nor Luka on the floor.  They had been overlapping most of their time since the two NY losses.  Given KP's more aggressive game while Luka was hurt, I wondered if Carlisle would separate them again and he did.  Mixed results as KP was -9 on the night.  The team was +13 in the minutes where Powell and Maxi were both on the floor and as is often the case, there was always two of KP, Maxi and Powell on the floor at all times.  

I'm not sure what the best use of KP is going to be.  If Luka passes him the ball instead of taking the shot, .611 TS% is giving up the shot to .504%.  But, when KP plays with Wright, Brunson and Curry, those guys are only getting 15-20 minutes to make an impact (and all shoot the ball more efficiently than KP).  Brunson seems to have the most chemistry with KP.  But, the bench mob on their own without Luka or KP tends to do just fine most nights.  I don't care if KP never becomes a 20 ppg guy (he never was all that efficient in NY).  What I care about is that he becomes more of a net positive on the court.

The team absolutely died when Luka went out the last minute of the first quarter (-9) and again the last :39 of the third and first two minutes of the fourth (-8).  In both cases they immediately went on a good run with KP and mostly subs, but the transition from Luka-O to ball movement-O was pretty ugly both times.

Another new wrinkle last night was driving KP dishing assists on the move.  Two times he hit guys in the corner for 3's while driving and his lob to Powell also came while on the move.  On those plays at least, he wasn't a 7'3" Shooting Guard, he was a 7'3" Point Guard.  All three plays were pretty breathtaking.

[Dundalis]

Chuck Cooperstein disagreed in theory, opining that big men who can post up are "devastating,"

LOL, sorry Coop, I'll hitch my wagon to Rick's take on how the Mavs should play the game.

 

Coop is not wrong though. Having a post up game was what made Dirk grow into a complete player.  I don’t think KP has the same base strength as Dirk did though. Hence would like to see some more face the basket type high post sets for him.  

This team with their two unique talents is relatively new though. Rick will add some wrinkles as time goes on to take advantage.

I don't understand how anyone can really argue with Carlise. He didn't state his opinion as an opinion. Listen to his phrasing, he stated it as an absolute FACT. As in not debatable. And he is clearly drawing heavily upon what is likely to be a very well funded Dallas Mavericks analytics team, who no doubt have access to plenty of data we don't and over a very large sample size.

It's not that he's saying post play can't be effective. He's clearly stating that you will be less effective on offense the more you incorporate post play and mid range, while you will become more effective offensively the more you exclude it. And that it's a fact, based both on the analytics done by the Mavericks, and um... our actual historic level offensive efficiency, via our playstyle which is built on those analytics.

And for those quoting Dirks play, I absolutely guarantee you that despite how good Dirk became in the mid range, if he were 26 years old right now, he's not doing that stuff today, under Rick, in todays game. He will probably get more leeway than KP, because he was much better at it, but he's shooting way way more 3's, way less mid range, and is likely going to spend his time in off seasons perfecting his 3 point shooting and driving rather than his mid range fade. That's just the way it is.

[vg2011]

Luka's assists tend to be either lobs or drive and kick to the corner. KP's favorite spots tend be around the top of the key. So Luka tends to make Powell look better than he is on the lobs and THJ look better than he is by setting him up in the corner.

J Kidd was a master at adapting to the strengths of his teammates and setting all of them up in their favorite spots.

Thus far Luka, being more of a scoring point guard, seems to play better with guys that adapt to him. When he drives his passing options are limited to what's in front of him that he can see (the corners and the lobs).

KP's favorite spots are in Luka's blind spot behind where Luka is driving.

This seems like an easy problem to fix. Both guys need to adjust their games slightly to play to the other's strengths. But it needs to happen soon before habits get too ingrained.

And KP's favorite spots

[Dahlsim]

Mavs Edge Spurs, End Home Losing Streak in Luka Return

It wasn't the prettiest of games, but Luka was back, the Mavericks got the W, and all was right with the world. 


.....


Players

Porzingis (35 min). KP had a pretty bad first half, and just couldn't seem to establish a rhythm. He came out stronger in the second half. Although he was still missing shots (4-15), he is starting to give us a sense of what the team might be when he ultimately gets it together. He had back-to-back threes at one point, and executed a rare big-to-big alley oop with Powell that Carlisle termed "pretty f'ing cool." 

The TNT crew kept harping on KP's failure to post up, as if the game were played in their eras. Rick gave a postgame rant,  asserting that they don't want KP or anyone else posting up, as a general matter, as the post-up is a low percentage play. Rick said Luka can post up if he has a small guy on him, and Rick is okay with KP posting up once in a while, but posting up is not part of their game plan. They want guys on the perimeter, or getting to the basket instead. FWIW, Chuck Cooperstein disagreed in theory, opining that big men who can post up are "devastating," but agreed that KP does not have the skills to make it work. So, there we have it. 

...... 
Hope everyone had a great Christmas!  Go Mavs!

Very interesting debate that broke out last night.  Rarely does a top NBA coach get called out or questioned to directly on strategy and the fact that it was KP himself that responded by saying essentially "yeah, I'd like to post up more but I'm also fine with the way we play here in Dallas, different from the way I was used in New York". 
https://youtu.be/ilTwzpM3Xrg - Kristaps Porzingis on Luka Doncic Return, Role in Mavs Offense & Bounce Back After Toronto Loss

[hakeemfan]

Coop is not wrong though. Having a post up game was what made Dirk grow into a complete player.  

KP isn't Dirk and the NBA isn't the same. KP is playing like a 7'3" shooting guard. Don't close out, he'll nail his open look. Close out on him and he'll floor the ball and dunk with one dribble. He's being coached to take high value shots and it's starting to work. We don't need to mold him into what other tall guys have been.

 For the first time ever  I sense stubbornness from you and not even reading what I posted. I talked clearly about the differences between Dirk and KP and didnt ask him to be molded like Dirk at all.  

High post sets are being run by the Nuggets extensively right now.  Yes KP is not Jokic either but other than Jokic’s vision KP can do all the other things and some even better than Jokic due to his speed.  

If the best use for a 7’3” athletic, versatile guy who is being paid the max is park him at the 3 pt line then we are missing using him to his full potential...by a lot.

[LukTheShadow]

1. Whenever Mavs listen our Dr. orders good thinks happen
2. Beside last minutes in 4thQ mavs played pretty good D
3. With first play maker back some chemistry was not the same among starters as it was before LD's injury
4. Luka was rusty but still fun to watch
5. Crowd in AAC participated, good job
6. W + Seth pass to Luka + KP lob to Dwight + .... + some food for my heard attack in last minutes + W = good game
7. ML :awe:

[hakeemfan]

Chuck Cooperstein disagreed in theory, opining that big men who can post up are "devastating,"

LOL, sorry Coop, I'll hitch my wagon to Rick's take on how the Mavs should play the game.

 

Coop is not wrong though. Having a post up game was what made Dirk grow into a complete player.  I don’t think KP has the same base strength as Dirk did though. Hence would like to see some more face the basket type high post sets for him.  

This team with their two unique talents is relatively new though. Rick will add some wrinkles as time goes on to take advantage.

I don't understand how anyone can really argue with Carlise. He didn't state his opinion as an opinion. Listen to his phrasing, he stated it as an absolute FACT. As in not debatable. And he is clearly drawing heavily upon what is likely to be a very well funded Dallas Mavericks analytics team, who no doubt have access to plenty of data we don't and over a very large sample size.

It's not that he's saying post play can't be effective. He's clearly stating that you will be less effective on offense the more you incorporate post play and mid range, while you will become more effective offensively the more you exclude it. And that it's a fact, based both on the analytics done by the Mavericks, and um... our actual historic level offensive efficiency, via our playstyle which is built on those analytics.

And for those quoting Dirks play, I absolutely guarantee you that despite how good Dirk became in the mid range, if he were 26 years old right now, he's not doing that stuff today, under Rick, in todays game. He will probably get more leeway than KP, because he was much better at it, but he's shooting way way more 3's, way less mid range, and is likely going to spend his time in off seasons perfecting his 3 point shooting and driving rather than his mid range fade. That's just the way it is.

 Pinch Post sets are run from the high post.  Not the low post.  Denver runs it extensively.  

Dirk didn’t get a post up game at 26. He was doing it at 34 against the likes of Bron, Haarlem, and Bosh.  However I did not even ask those sets because I clearly said KP doesn’t have Dirk’s base strength.  

There is one team GS who at one point had 3 of the greatest shooters ever.  They played to their strengths.  Yet they also got plenty of close range baskets. We have two tall studs who can also get easier baskets than just long 3s.  No one is asking to completely change their philosophy.  Just asking for a few sets a game that maximizes chances for easier buckets.  2 of the 3 game winning buckets during our championship finals came via post up plays.  Like it or not in the playoffs things will slow down and you will need some sets where you can’t be over reliant on the 3.  Even GS knew that and we are not even them in terms of our 3 pt prowess.

---

Luka's assists tend to be either lobs or drive and kick to the corner. KP's favorite spots tend be around the top of the key. So Luka tends to make Powell look better than he is on the lobs and THJ look better than he is by setting him up in the corner.

J Kidd was a master at adapting to the strengths of his teammates and setting all of them up in their favorite spots.

Thus far Luka, being more of a scoring point guard, seems to play better with guys that adapt to him. When he drives his passing options are limited to what's in front of him that he can see (the corners and the lobs).

KP's favorite spots are in Luka's blind spot behind where Luka is driving.

This seems like an easy problem to fix. Both guys need to adjust their games slightly to play to the other's strengths. But it needs to happen soon before habits get too ingrained.

And KP's favorite spots

Totally agreed. Great post.

[fifteenth]

For the first time ever  I sense stubbornness from you and not even reading what I posted.

Sorry about that. I was responding based on (1) I liked Rick's rant, (2) someone said "Coop disagreed", and (3) you said "Coop is not wrong." Let's forget about all that since it way over simplifies what each person actually thinks.

The deal is, I like high post stuff too. When the TNT guys oversimplify the discussion and call for "past ups", I imagine KP isolation. But I don't think that's what this offense is going to look like. The high post stuff should be able to happen where Luka and KP are interacting, and the offensive motion doesn't stop.

Also, KP at the 3 pt line wouldn't mean he's just camping out and hoisting 30 footers. It should, and does, result in KP moving towards the basket with and without the ball.

I like all the stuff being said in the thread, especially Dan and V's contributions. And HF, I think some high post stuff would be great.

[mavsluvr]

Very interesting debate that broke out last night.  Rarely does a top NBA coach get called out or questioned to directly on strategy and the fact that it was KP himself that responded by saying essentially "yeah, I'd like to post up more but I'm also fine with the way we play here in Dallas, different from the way I was used in New York".

Thanks for posting the KP interview. Very interesting. 


I didn't come away from it thinking that KP is dying to post up, but RC won't let him. I thought it was more like he has been willing to learn a new way to play that de-emphasizes his personal scoring because he can see how well it is working. The team is winning and has an historically great offense. More like, "This system is working well, so I'm happy to play however the coach wants me to."

[fifteenth]

I didn't come away from it thinking that KP is dying to post up, but RC won't let him. I thought it was more like he has been willing to learn a new way to play that de-emphasizes his personal scoring because he can see how well it is working. The team is winning and has an historically great offense. More like, "This system is working well, so I'm happy to play however the coach wants me too."

I agree. And he's said this in other post game interviews when asked similar questions.

[mavsluvr]

I don't care if KP never becomes a 20 ppg guy (he never was all that efficient in NY).  What I care about is that he becomes more of a net positive on the court.

Good point. I think this agrees with the Mavs' approach wrt KP. He is being encouraged to maximize his impact on the game, rather than his individual stats. I think this is a pretty common thing with multi-star teams, as opposed to teams where one guy is "the man." Learning to step back is a process for an ex-franchise player. 


Having said that, I think when KP's shot starts falling, we are going to see some truly breathtaking team performances.

[Dahlsim]

Very interesting debate that broke out last night.  Rarely does a top NBA coach get called out or questioned to directly on strategy and the fact that it was KP himself that responded by saying essentially "yeah, I'd like to post up more but I'm also fine with the way we play here in Dallas, different from the way I was used in New York".

Thanks for posting the KP interview. Very interesting. 


I didn't come away from it thinking that KP is dying to post up, but RC won't let him. I thought it was more like he has been willing to learn a new way to play that de-emphasizes his personal scoring because he can see how well it is working. The team is winning and has an historically great offense. More like, "This system is working well, so I'm happy to play however the coach wants me to."

I didn't come away thinking he was dying to post up either.  I think he stated his position very well, its nice that KP communicates so well in English btw, and I think he conveyed more or less what you said.  

I do think it's noteworthy however that when asked about his shot selection he does bring up the Dallas system and the coach at all.  He answers honestly I think and he did say in the clip 'sure, i'd like to post up', so there is that.   I think as you said, he's not expressing any discontent about it and he also says "as long as we're winning".     If the Mavericks offensive system wasn't performing so well and W's weren't better than most expected, then we might be getting a different slant.  It doesn't hurt either that KP has his long term MAX contract in his pocket and he gets his touches, recognized as the teams star, even if it is #2.  He doesn't have a lot to complain about, even if he did disagree. 

Winning cures all in Pro Sports!

[hakeemfan]

I don’t care if KP wants to post up or not. The main issue is over reliance on the 3 pt shot and regardless of our historical levels we don’t have KD, Steph, and Klay that we can be confident it will work in the playoffs too when defenses take it up a notch.

If we are content to be the Rox and struggle as we go deeper in the playoffs that is fine. Else realize that while we can still get a ton of 3s we have two unique guys who can also get a lot of easier buckets. Drive and kick need not be the main wrinkle. No other team has KP. Take advantage of his versatility with some high post sets too.

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

The fact that the Mavs are currently running an all time great offense without all time great shooters is evidence that we are utilizing the talent properly. The answer isnt to dumb down the offense to a less efficient phillosophy, the answer is to stick with the same highly efficient system and upgrade the shooters.

The Rox are a pulled CP3 hammy away from winning a title and would have already won one had they not had to go through the most dominating basketball powers the NBA has seen in their conference. I have no problem being the next Rox

[fifteenth]

I don't really like the Rockets comparisons in this discussion because the two teams have very different offenses. The Rockets offense is Harden drives while the other guys stand on the perimeter. The Mavs have Luka drive in the midst of lots of off the ball movement.