A Few Thoughts on Mavs 107, Raptors 110

[Reunion Mav Old]

I agree with much of what has been posted. I will add that two more dynamics happened. One,everyone knows that we were at the very end of a brutal road trip.  Second, I think we let down because watching the game I was sure the Raptors had quit. I never ever quit watching because stuff always happens but I saw no sign they had any willpower to pull anything off. I switched to the Cowboys. 

I think our guys totally lost their edge. Once it’s gone bad things happen. Given all of that, if Jalen makes the last shot, the lessons learned would have been less expensive.

[SportPsychMav]

https://youtu.be/VqNnPti8ewI

[ClutchDirk]

Because he throws the ball away every other possession in the 4th quarter. Dude gets swallowed by presses. Though last night it wasn't just him, Wright and Curry also got exposed.

Why does Brunson continually get singled out as the late game choker. 
I thought I was reading multiple opinions on multiple players choking. A colossal choke job of this kind takes way more than 1 person. I also see more blame on the coach than any single player. There is a ton of things not to like about that last game.

See the inaccurate hyperbole from your fellow mod (he's not only one) above. See how he cut out the factual statistics I posted?

You sure spend a lot of time calling out people on here...

I like Powell like you like Brunson but I'm not getting hurt everytime someone says to dump him or has a hyperbole statement to make him look overpaid and a horrible mistake made by Management...

[dmavs4life03]

Mods are just posters who Magick asked to delete spam. Most other modding that has taken place is to watch out for Mod on Mod crime. No reason to hold that against SH.

I've been doing a bit of Brunson defending lately, but it is true that he's having to learn how to handle pressure. His 4th quarters have been up and down, no doubt. 

JJB would absolutely have settled that game down. He knows how to handle pressure because of his experience level in high pressure NBA situations, mental toughness and handles. 

And finally, based on past DSJ posts, more recent Seth posts (who takes Jalen's minutes sometimes), and consistent Brunson posts, I think Fuerza actually is Jalen Brunson. Which is really cool. He may be the first real live NBA player we've had on the board. 

We (most of us) love you Jalen!!

You are under the impression Barea is guaranteed to come off the bench ice cold and perform at a high level. He also has to play defense and he wasn't gonna stop Lowry, who was coming in like a freight train. 

Sure, I would prefer to see Barea run the offense over Delon/Seth, which hurt us in a 4 min span from 3Q-4Q but again I don't think it was the difference between winning/losing like many of y'all expect. Barea could have came in and screwed up just as easily too. 

Contrary to belief, I like all the Mavs players equally. I try to add a different perspective instead of contributing to the echo chamber of Luka = god posts.

We didn't even have to stop lowry if we kept scoring ourselves. Rick just has a fetish for small ball. I remember watching open court a while back and Kevin McHale was saying that small ball is good but tall skilled beats small skilled any day of the week and tall hustle beats small hustle. Pretty simple. He even gave examples like Draymond Green is a good defender but against a tall skilled big say Marc Gasol or Anthony Davis, he cant guard em. So expecting Brunson, Curry and Delon to be able to stop Lowry and a bunch of other sizable wings is stupid and more importantly.... they then have to work harder to score or grab rebounds!!! Brunson is a good backup as is Barea but expecting them to create and score one on one in such high energy trapping defense was a recipe for disaster. No Maxi or Boban with KP to try and shore up the middle/grab boards/block shots and no screens to free up space for offense.Ugh

[Dahlsim]

Mods are just posters who Magick asked to delete spam. Most other modding that has taken place is to watch out for Mod on Mod crime. No reason to hold that against SH.

I've been doing a bit of Brunson defending lately, but it is true that he's having to learn how to handle pressure. His 4th quarters have been up and down, no doubt. 

JJB would absolutely have settled that game down. He knows how to handle pressure because of his experience level in high pressure NBA situations, mental toughness and handles. 

And finally, based on past DSJ posts, more recent Seth posts (who takes Jalen's minutes sometimes), and consistent Brunson posts, I think Fuerza actually is Jalen Brunson. Which is really cool. He may be the first real live NBA player we've had on the board. 

We (most of us) love you Jalen!!

You are under the impression Barea is guaranteed to come off the bench ice cold and perform at a high level. He also has to play defense and he wasn't gonna stop Lowry, who was coming in like a freight train. 

Sure, I would prefer to see Barea run the offense over Delon/Seth, which hurt us in a 4 min span from 3Q-4Q but again I don't think it was the difference between winning/losing like many of y'all expect. Barea could have came in and screwed up just as easily too. 

Contrary to belief, I like all the Mavs players equally. I try to add a different perspective instead of contributing to the echo chamber of Luka = god posts.

Well, why not?  Barea is one of the very best in the league at drawing offensive fouls on the opponent.  He does it all the time.  Just because he's cold off the bench doesn't erase his memory of how to draw fouls.  Also, it's when a player is "coming in like a freight train" that they are most susceptible to committing an offensive foul.  JMHO.

This is an interesting point and good debate.   I agree with 15th that its highly likely that JJB will perform better under pressure than 2nd year Jalen in terms of decision making over a period of time, just making less mistakes.  He's proven.  
Its true also that nothing is guaranteed.  JJB could come in and lay an egg, but the % and history says you're giving your team the best chance to avoid such mistakes, especially repeated mistakes over and over. 

There's another point here which I've tried to make.  When your team is the one that has a big lead late in the game, you don't absolutely have to out defend your opponent.  Your opponent has to get the stops more than you do.   If you keep scoring, the other team is going to run out of time even if they have a hot hand going like Kyle Lowry was.  Trading 3's for 2's is probably not going get it done. 

This is why I liked both JJB and Boban for this situation.  Boban because statistically he's highly unlikely to get repeated attempts at the bucket and not produce some points.   Sometimes he's also going to get fouled too especially when your opponent is guarding him with smaller men. 

KP also serves this purpose but his frailer frame inside allows tough small guys like Lowry to foul him and wrap him up much easier than a giant like Bobi.  Once the Mavs surrendered the lead, then it was a different story.  Now they have to get stops because they're chasing and need the defense as much or more than the Raptors but Mavs were up 23 points going into the 4th quarter! 

Good offense is also good defense when the other team is chasing your big lead. Rick Carlisle played rotations that would make more sense if the Mavericks were behind trying to catch up rather than protecting a lead. 
If the Mavs score 25 points instead of 20, it likely means they didn't turn the ball over as much and the Raptors score a couple less baskets.  The comeback will come short for the team behind big, which is usually what happens.

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We didn't even have to stop lowry if we kept scoring ourselves. Rick just has a fetish for small ball. I remember watching open court a while back and Kevin McHale was saying that small ball is good but tall skilled beats small skilled any day of the week and tall hustle beats small hustle. Pretty simple. He even gave examples like Draymond Green is a good defender but against a tall skilled big say Marc Gasol or Anthony Davis, he cant guard em. So expecting Brunson, Curry and Delon to be able to stop Lowry and a bunch of other sizable wings is stupid and more importantly.... they then have to work harder to score or grab rebounds!!! Brunson is a good backup as is Barea but expecting them to create and score one on one in such high energy trapping defense was a recipe for disaster. No Maxi or Boban with KP to try and shore up the middle/grab boards/block shots and no screens to free up space for offense.Ugh

I think we just posted the same point.  Great minds think alike! 

[mavsluvr]

don't fault Rick for trying something that didn't work. However, in retrospect, I think he let it go on too long, and I think he would probably agree with that. 
….. 

So if we agree with Rick that it really was an 'L' on him because he let it go on too long, then is it just too difficult to say in this case the fault IS on Rick?

I don't see it as productive to view this in terms of "fault." I see the debacle as exposing a team weakness that can be shored up. 


Say a person tries an experiment that didn't work. I can logically say both that the experiment didn't work, and that it made sense to try it.  

I don't think we can say this loss was entirely on Rick, despite the fact that he said that. He could have implemented all the strategies we are proposing, and still have lost the game. We can't know what an alternative reality would have looked like. Additionally, the players made plenty of mistakes on their own that were somewhat surprising for NBA athletes. I tend to think that we learned that he should have intervened -- not so much because it might have salvaged a win, but because it seemed that the experience in the end seemed more (inadvertently) cruel than educational.   

Maybe the most important bigger-picture takeaway is that this was a pretty clear statement that the Mavs don't see themselves as in ultimate win-now mode. If Carlisle's instructions were to go all out for the best W-L record possible, he likely would have approached it differently. So anyone expecting the organization to sell the farm in January to bring in a couple of vets to seal a title run might want to think about whether it makes sense to adjust their expectations. 

Appreciate your thoughts, dahlsim.

[ItsGoTime]

So anyone expecting the organization to sell the farm in January to bring in a couple of vets to seal a title run might want to think about whether it makes sense to adjust their expectations. 

I haven’t seen anyone with any expectations (well, maybe Scott, not sure) of doing something like you said. There have been proposals that people think would work out better for this team, none of them sell the farm proposals. Also, it is a worthy point of debate to question the validity of any action or inaction of the FO of course IMO.

[mavsluvr]

So anyone expecting the organization to sell the farm in January to bring in a couple of vets to seal a title run might want to think about whether it makes sense to adjust their expectations. 

I haven’t seen anyone with any expectations (well, maybe Scott, not sure) of doing something like you said. There have been proposals that people think would work out better for this team, none of them sell the farm proposals. Also, it is a worthy point of debate to question the validity of any action or inaction of the FO of course IMO.

Yes, in my mind there are two independent subjects of inquiry.

Are the Mavs in ultimate win-now mode?
Should the Mavs be in ultimate win-now mode?

My comment is directed at the first inquiry. What is the reality of the Mavericks' thinking? If a fan wants the team, for example, to acquire player A, it may be helpful to know whether the organization in fact has an interest in that. Let's say they don't. The fan can still legitimately think they should. And he may equally legitimately decide to stop figuring out ways the team can acquire Player A and move on if he believes the club isn't going in that direction.

[ItsGoTime]

My comment is directed at the first inquiry. What is the reality of the Mavericks' thinking? If a fan wants the team, for example, to acquire player A, it may be helpful to know whether the organization in fact has an interest in that. Let's say they don't. The fan can still legitimately think they should. And he may equally legitimately decide to stop figuring out ways the team can acquire Player A and move on if he believes the club isn't going in that direction.

Agree, if it is determined that is the FO thinking the debate should switch to the validity of that thinking, not who should be acquired. Although, the trade/player could also be a part of the reason for that debate.

[mavsluvr]

Why does Brunson continually get singled out as the late game choker. 

Since Luka has been out, Porzingis is shooting 38% in the 4th quarter; THJ is shooting 31%; both averaging about 4 pts per 4Q. 

His turnovers are blown out of proportion. You guys seem to expect flawless basketball. He is averaging 2 assists per 4Q and 1 turnover since Luka has been out.

Luka averages exactly 1 assist and 1 turnover per 4th quarter all year. The difference is he is an elite go-to scorer, which is what we're missing the most.

(1)  Luka is out. (2) Teammates perform worse.

(1) and (2) are likely interrelated.

[Fuerza1]

(1)  Luka is out. (2) Teammates perform worse.

(1) and (2) are likely interrelated.

Before Luka injury, Porzingis was shooting 34% in the 4th quarter; THJ shooting 37%; both averaging 3 pts. 

So in actuality, teammates are performing about the same or even better in some cases. Overall, there doesn't look to be much difference, if at all, before or after Luka's injury.

Brunson has run the offense just as well as Luka has and data backs this up. And he's doing it against 5 of the NBA's best teams with 4 of them being elite defensively. 

Not saying we are better without Luka btw, please don't stone me LFFL's. But the playmaking is not what we are missing from Luka; it's the go-to scoring. This wouldn't have been an issue in yesterday's game if Bro/Seth/Delon don't combine to go 2/18 from the field plus the bench scoring 20 pts total.

[fifteenth]

Dude, you had to have been a Jalen Brunson fan and then followed him to the Mavs. That's not a bad thing if so.

[mavsluvr]

Brunson has run the offense just as well as Luka has and data backs this up.

Brunson runs the offense differently than Luka does. He has done an admirable job in many respects. He is a second-year player, and is bound to make some mistakes when he is thrown into high-pressure situations. He lacks Luka's ice-veined composure in clutch situations. That is to be expected. He is still a good player -- very good, considering where he is in his career. 


Not sure why you are trying to make the case that Brunson is as good as or better than Luka at certain things. It's not necessary to do that to appreciate Brunson as a player. Or even especially relevant, since Brunson's role is to back up Luka, not to compete with him.

[ThisIStheYear]

This game meant nothing. Just a bad quarter against a desperation strategy that wouldn’t have worked against Luka. Over 82 games, you’re going to have at least one inexplicable meltdown. But, if you must know what happened, the box score says Curry/Wright crapped the bed, like hugely.

[mavsluvr]

This game meant nothing. Just a bad quarter against a desperation strategy that wouldn’t have worked against Luka. Over 82 games, you’re going to have at least one inexplicable meltdown. But, if you must know what happened, the box score says Curry/Wright crapped the bed, like hugely.

Agree that looking at a box score cannot tell you why things happened in a game.

[Dahlsim]

don't fault Rick for trying something that didn't work. However, in retrospect, I think he let it go on too long, and I think he would probably agree with that. 
….. 

So if we agree with Rick that it really was an 'L' on him because he let it go on too long, then is it just too difficult to say in this case the fault IS on Rick?

I don't see it as productive to view this in terms of "fault." I see the debacle as exposing a team weakness that can be shored up. 


Say a person tries an experiment that didn't work. I can logically say both that the experiment didn't work, and that it made sense to try it.  

I don't think we can say this loss was entirely on Rick, despite the fact that he said that. He could have implemented all the strategies we are proposing, and still have lost the game. We can't know what an alternative reality would have looked like. Additionally, the players made plenty of mistakes on their own that were somewhat surprising for NBA athletes. I tend to think that we learned that he should have intervened -- not so much because it might have salvaged a win, but because it seemed that the experience in the end seemed more (inadvertently) cruel than educational.   

Maybe the most important bigger-picture takeaway is that this was a pretty clear statement that the Mavs don't see themselves as in ultimate win-now mode. If Carlisle's instructions were to go all out for the best W-L record possible, he likely would have approached it differently. So anyone expecting the organization to sell the farm in January to bring in a couple of vets to seal a title run might want to think about whether it makes sense to adjust their expectations. 

Appreciate your thoughts, dahlsim.

Well said and a lot of good points ML. 

I addressed fault in this context because you said you don't fault Rick.  In terms of the 'L' this particular game was absurdly winnable hence why it is widely being considered in media and is historically one of the worst blown leads in NBA history. 

That I put mostly on Rick and in doing so I think I'm in agreement with him.  Of course players play the game so they always share the blame, but strategically, Coach Carlisle could have saved that 'W' had it been his highest priority to do so.  It wasn't. 

In the big picture, was it still a good thing, in terms of development?  I don't know.  I don't think it was because I think he could have distributed some minutes to the bench help in such a way as to get the win and still get the message across that 'hey, see how your guys were about to blow that game' but see how JJ and the Bigs were able to save it?? 
Still as I said, Rick, by all evidence at least in the mind of Mark Cuban, has earned the right to throw a few games away in the interest of lets say character development? 


A blessed and merry Christmas to all Mavs fans!!!
All others, well you have a nice day too.

[vfromlmf]

Raptors, down 16, just tried to press the Celtics and Tatum backed Bouche down like a waterboy. Not long after that Tatum went ahead and put Bouche on a poster for good measure. Monster jam. Mavs could really use some physical wing scoring or a banger. 

I think the Celtics and Clippers are the toughest matchup for the Mavs. Just can’t match their combination of size, physicality and athleticism.