I'm out on the 2023-24 season ....

[The Jom]

Kidd opinions here are just way too extreme. Nice to hear some moderate voices of late. But the haters have some points. You see him out-coached and obstinate. You see his passivity during the game. You see him tolerate Luka’s constant complaining. These things hurt the team.

But you also see better defense, more buy in, and playoff-style offense all year long. These are unequivocally good imho.

What tips the scale for me is seeing Luka picking up vintage Kidd traits. Like the 3/4-court assists. Very reminiscent of Kidd’s game, what, some 25 years ago? Add to that the impressive clutch numbers and I’m on the coach’s side. He’s not the league’s best. He may not be good enough to bring home a championship. But at least half the time I’d pick him over the guy on the other team’s bench. And like so many other parts of this organization right now, he seems to be getting better.

[KillerLeft]

Kidd opinions here are just way too extreme. Nice to hear some moderate voices of late. But the haters have some points. You see him out-coached and obstinate. You see his passivity during the game. You see him tolerate Luka’s constant complaining. These things hurt the team.

But you also see better defense, more buy in, and playoff-style offense all year long. These are unequivocally good imho.

What tips the scale for me is seeing Luka picking up vintage Kidd traits. Like the 3/4-court assists. Very reminiscent of Kidd’s game, what, some 25 years ago? Add to that the impressive clutch numbers and I’m on the coach’s side. He’s not the league’s best. He may not be good enough to bring home a championship. But at least half the time I’d pick him over the guy on the other team’s bench. And like so many other parts of this organization right now, he seems to be getting better.

He has buy-in from the room, I’ve always admitted that. And, that’s easy to take for granted.

And lately, I’ve started to believe (tentatively) that the style he’s trying to play has merit. 

I just believe, personally, that Carlisle’s style is superior and more fun to watch, so part of my angst over the coaching is aesthetically driven. But, if this works for much longer I’ll be happy to jump on board.

[fifteenth]

If we're gonna dog the coach when the team looks absolutely hopeless and riot for a change, then we should give the coach props for making them look the most polished they've been in 365 days. 

This year has taught me a lot about Jason Kidd. The dude is absolutely fine with failure/losing. In fact I think he advocates for it during the regular season, as he thinks it builds his team up. He's partly right. A team built through adversity is a strong one. On the other hand he is a dolt because it's the riskiest game to play and truthfully why should a coach be ok with losing? If there is a lesson that his players can teach himself, I think Kidd will let the team fail to learn it (*if they even do).

If a game is going poorly because his guys aren't motivated, there is a 0.1% chance that Kidd will save them. As he said, he's just watching like us. But!!!!!! If Kidd believes in a team AND if they have bought into his system, then he really does know how to win a game. I think that's why Kidd has always had pretty above average playoff success as a HC. 

But again those 2 events that appear to be rare as hell, because out of the 5 editions of Mav teams Kidd has coach (KP Mavs, WCF team, Wood Hell, Post Kyrie trade, Current team), only 2 versions have worked. It's hard to get rid of him because of how ingratiated he is with Luka and Kyrie, but thankfully this version of the Mavs are all under contract for a while. So maybe keeping Kidd isn't terrible.

(But maybe we'd be even better under a real coach like Budenholzer....?)

Good stuff SH!! I heard Nick Angstadt talking about this exact thing. Based on what Nick was saying, which is based on things JKidd says, Kidd believes that the team is going to be better if they learn how to work through adversity, solve the problem, find the motivation themselves, rather than having to completely rely on the coach to fix everything or to give them motivation. 

At the same time, this isn't how he is at all times. He was a big part of the team meeting after the most recent losing stretch and had a lot to say.

Here's my takeaway: I've been frustrated by Kidd. But this philosophy makes sense to me. It helps me to give him more leeway. If the result is that the Mavs end up more mature, able to handle adversity, tougher minded for the playoffs, and that helps them to make a deep run, then well done JKidd. 

As far as play style goes. I liked watching Rick's beautiful offense. I was a Rick-o-phile. I think I even posted a few months ago about Rick's team having a better record the Kidd's team. But what we've seen over the past 10 games out of the Mavs, with the ability to morph the offense based on the other team's defense, and unleash either a three-point barrage or a dunkfest, works just fine for me. And that defense is starting to look ok too. 

[SkenfromLMF]

If you remember the season immediately post-trade for Kidd, Rick and Kidd butted heads for a bit because Rick was a system guy and Kidd felt impeded as a player when the coach was calling out every set when the team transitioned to offense. I do believe Rick is a master X-O coach and his success out of timeouts and baseline OOB situations supports that premise. Kidd not so much, however I think Kidd unquestionably helps develop players better. It is maddening when you feel Kidd's team is the better team personnel wise and loses to a lesser opponent due to this approach of FORCING the players to adapt and "feel the game out" rather than having set plays and execution on Rick's level. It is doubly maddening when the standings are stacked as they are. Dallas goes from pushing for 4th to fighting for 8th with 2 losses.

Long term Kidd is the right coach for a young team and that is what we are... NOW
Eventually a team will need an offensive system that is structured with options and mature players which can execute sets as well as read and react. Unfortunately very few organizations (or players) have the patience to build up to that point and sacrifice player development for systems. The issue for Kidd has been when the time comes to transition from learn while you play to a more execution oriented system, that change is marked by "going a different direction" in coaching rather than Kidd growing into the coach his players need.

[fifteenth]

If you remember... 

Great stuff Sken. But is it possible that once the team learns to "figure it out" and "fix it yourself" they may be in position to run the offense and defense without a bunch of play calls from the coach? 

I like how your post addresses the X's and O's side of this discussion. But what do you think about the "figure it out" and "fix it yourself" approach regarding the emotional side of the game. I feel like Kidd is trying to teach them to calm themselves down, don't get discouraged, deal with your emotions for yourself, rather than relying on the coach to do that for you, on top of figuring out X's and O's.

[ballsrchr]

There are dynamic elements, starting with rookies, the bench, the rotation, the starting lineup, and the coaches, required for a successful team--any team--basketball, in this case. The Mavs are closer to that dynamic now than they have been in a long time.

Coaches must evaluate the "team" individually and collectively, and then be able to co-ordinate the entire team. This co-ordination should influence the team in daily life, the locker room--and on the court. This is a synergistic relationship yet with clearly defined roles.

Antagonistic coaching, without clearly defined solutions and the ability to succeed does not work--in my experience. In my experience this just teaches a team how to give up--individually and collectively. This is one reason why I quit team play and went mostly as a loner. Yeah...I gave up.

The reason I am mostly down on Jason Kidd started probably even before he was drafted by the Mavs and this is one of the most important qualities for any person of responsibility. And that is quality of character. Kidd has always skirted the edge of good character. How can he impart this quality to his team?

I admit I'm a hard ass about this. Probably stemming mostly from personal experience--on both sides of the line. Can a person change? Sure. But it's hard. And I'm not giving Kidd an inch until he earns it. He's probably on his last chance to earn it in basketball...

[The Jom]

If you remember the season immediately post-trade for Kidd, Rick and Kidd butted heads for a bit because Rick was a system guy and Kidd felt impeded as a player when the coach was calling out every set when the team transitioned to offense. I do believe Rick is a master X-O coach and his success out of timeouts and baseline OOB situations supports that premise. Kidd not so much, however I think Kidd unquestionably helps develop players better. It is maddening when you feel Kidd's team is the better team personnel wise and loses to a lesser opponent due to this approach of FORCING the players to adapt and "feel the game out" rather than having set plays and execution on Rick's level. It is doubly maddening when the standings are stacked as they are. Dallas goes from pushing for 4th to fighting for 8th with 2 losses.

Long term Kidd is the right coach for a young team and that is what we are... NOW
Eventually a team will need an offensive system that is structured with options and mature players which can execute sets as well as read and react. Unfortunately very few organizations (or players) have the patience to build up to that point and sacrifice player development for systems. The issue for Kidd has been when the time comes to transition from learn while you play to a more execution oriented system, that change is marked by "going a different direction" in coaching rather than Kidd growing into the coach his players need.

I thought Avery was still the coach when Kidd arrived, no? Wasn’t there an infamous end-game situation where Avery sat Kidd and that was the beginning of the end? This article appears to support my feeble memory on this. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1145...what-gives

[youzigizag]

There are dynamic elements, starting with rookies, the bench, the rotation, the starting lineup, and the coaches, required for a successful team--any team--basketball, in this case.  The Mavs are closer to that dynamic now than they have been in a long time.

Coaches must evaluate the "team" individually and collectively, and then be able to co-ordinate the entire team.  This co-ordination should influence the team in daily life, the locker room--and on the court.  This is a synergistic relationship yet with clearly defined roles.

Antagonistic coaching, without clearly defined solutions and the ability to succeed does not work--in my experience.  In my experience this just teaches a team how to give up--individually and collectively.  This is one reason why I quit team play and went mostly as a loner.  Yeah...I gave up.

The reason I am mostly down on Jason Kidd started probably even before he was drafted by the Mavs and this is one of the most important qualities for any person of responsibility.  And that is quality of character.  Kidd has always skirted the edge of good character.  How can he impart this quality to his team?

I admit I'm a hard ass about this.  Probably stemming mostly from personal experience--on both sides of the line.  Can a person change?  Sure.  But it's hard.  And I'm not giving Kidd an inch until he earns it.  He's probably on his last chance to earn it in basketball...

Curious what his character concerns were pre-draft in the 90's.

[ballsrchr]

Curious what his character concerns were pre-draft in the 90's.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-...story.html

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york/brook...-incidents

Are these links OK to post?

[SkenfromLMF]

Great stuff Sken. But is it possible that once the team learns to "figure it out" and "fix it yourself" they may be in position to run the offense and defense without a bunch of play calls from the coach? 

I like how your post addresses the X's and O's side of this discussion. But what do you think about the "figure it out" and "fix it yourself" approach regarding the emotional side of the game. I feel like Kidd is trying to teach them to calm themselves down, don't get discouraged, deal with your emotions for yourself, rather than relying on the coach to do that for you, on top of figuring out X's and O's.

Thanks… I believe that the emotional/game management maturity is necessary and Kidd is pretty astute in this part of the development - Admittedly much more than Rick - However, scheme wise his sets/secondary actions are fairly limited for this level of basketball. If you can stop P&R action and sag the backside wings to take away skip passes to the corner Dallas struggles mightily in the half court if Luka/Kyrie are not in Superman mode.

I think Kidd struggles to take a team to the next level because he is a motion flow guy as a player and coach, therefore he needs an Offensive Coordinator to help develop advanced sets. That requires Kidd to intimately trust his assistants (plural). I am not sure he has that level of trust in him. He does seem to have faith in Sweeney but that seems to be as far as he has such trust, TO THIS POINT.

There have to be times when the players know instinctively how to execute set plays against top defenses. Playing through these situations against lesser teams until you make 3’s or get open looks at the basket leaves a hole when trying to match an elite team that can defend.

All that said, Kidd may be able to grow into a comfort zone as a coach, which allows growth. Not sure history supports this as likely, BUT he is also approaching his longest tenure as a HC, so the waters are uncharted per his ability to take a team past year 3/4 successfully.

Big questions are how long before he can adjust to the needs for a more structured offense and how patient Luka will be during the process.

[The Jom]

. . . Big questions are how long before he can adjust to the needs for a more structured offense and how patient Luka will be during the process.

You made good points in your post. I disagree with these.

[SkenfromLMF]

I don't see how anyone can question that Kidd is NOT a top half scheme coach offensively. Defensively you can make a case that he is average to slightly above, but he is not close on offense. One of the things I will admit is that I was spoiled by Carlisle having the best out of bounds and time out sets in the league. Probably my biggest complaint about bringing in Kidd. I was willing to let it ride due to the WCF run, and last year brought me back to thinking I was right before.

I am fairly ambivalent now because I do see progress on the strengths Kidd brings... but I also know that Luka & Kyrie cover a multitude of flaws - as Galloway used to say "Dirk saves all butts" he would echo that with Luka as well, while Kyrie has been phenomenal in meshing with Luka and vice versa. Kidd deserves some credit on that front so I have to hope he can grow and implement some of the things that Rick excelled at. Kidd (or his assistants - as I said before) doesn't have to become Rick, but closing that gap will definitely lead to more success.

[The Jom]

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-...story.html

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york/brook...-incidents

Are these links OK to post?

As far as I know they are. 

It’s odd for me to be the Kidd defender here. I’m not in love with the guy as a coach or a person. But I just read through your articles, and it’s just hard for me to get worked up about any of his incidents. I guess if you think DWI = attempted murder, you might be pretty upset. Or if you distrust the judge who fined Kidd $200 for hitting his wife. (The judge who had access to the whole story, which I don’t know.) The on-court and lockerroom stuff doesn’t move the needle for me. Neither am I upset by what he did as a pre-draft teenager (when weed was a crime even in California). 

Don’t mean to suggest I can vouch for the guy. I don’t know him. But I would wager there aren’t too many Boy Scouts in the game, so I don’t see the need to hold Kidd to that standard.

[youzigizag]

Those stories/incidents suggest Kidd is has made a couple of mistakes...but nothing that suggests he's a bad guy.

He is into "the game" and seems to do things to make a point or put pressure on others in his way.

He does seem to be known for trying to "climb the ladder" and get people fired so he can access power. You might be able to claim he can get unsportsmanlike in that regard...but I would need to know full facts. I guess being his coach or boss means you are in the line of fire with him. Im not a big fan of those type of people...but I would need to know more about Kidd and his pursuit of power before labeling him as someone I would prefer to avoid.

[myconsumerclub]

I would try to design some new plays that involve Gafford and Lively so that we could get some more high % shots in key minutes where taking advantage of a mismatch is possible in close to the basket. I would also be working on game time situations we could see happen when and if we match up with a team Like MIN who has 2 bigs that play out there at the same time and in that kind of situation it might help to develop Lively as a 3 point threat so he could stretch the d while Gafford roamed nearer the basket.

I know he can hit 3's so why have they not engaged in trying to develop it during games?

If he could become a 3 point threat we would be able to play them both at the same time and I have seen Lively do a great job defending smaller players who do not get around him that often. Maybe they plan to work on it this offseason with Dirk helping more.

[Scott41theMavs]

Those stories/incidents suggest Kidd is has made a couple of mistakes...but nothing that suggests he's a bad guy.

via GIPHY

[youzigizag]

via GIPHY

I dont understand GIF's like this.

Provide the information that validates the GIF.  Is that what I am supposed to ask for?

Or is the incidents in the links supposed to paint him as evil?   

Kind of a weirdo post.  Nothing against you...just a weird post.

[youzigizag]

Dirk just gave an interview with Skin saying Kidd takes a lot of heat but is a good dude.

I guess Dirk is getting catfished again.

[Scott41theMavs]

I dont understand GIF's like this.

Provide the information that validates the GIF.  Is that what I am supposed to ask for?

Or is the incidents in the links supposed to paint him as evil?   

Kind of a weirdo post.  Nothing against you...just a weird post.

Wow - trying to wrap my head around this post.

My basic point, which I believed to be self-evident to the extreme, was that suggesting that Kidd "wasn't a bad dude" was a ridiculous take on its face. 

However, sometimes people are defining terms differently or using different criteria. The long list of abominable character moments on Kidd's part have been well-catalogued here. Surely I don't need to cut and paste for you. In terms of character, evaluated based on the events we have seen and heard about, it would seem that Kidd's character is pretty toiletsville and he's a confirmed degenerate by the criteria by which most folks judge such things. 

On the other hand, I can see two potential caveats to that - 1) people can certainly be given forgiveness and a latitude to change regardless of how poor their past has been. I think we as Mavs fans have certainly undergone that as our experience with Kyrie - at least so far. Perhaps Kidd deserves the same, in terms of his character as well as some latitude to grow as a coach (two massively different issues). 2) Perhaps I could presume that your sense of surprise at my gif was that you were talking about "not being a bad dude" in some other sense. In terms of how he treats the guys in the locker room, handling himself in a gentlemanly way in dealing with them, etc. If that was the sense in which you meant it, then I certainly apologize for the gif. In that sense, Kidd has a rock solid reputation as a player's coach, and guys don't get to become player's coaches without a track record of dealing in a respectful and genial way with players. Compare this to Carlisle, who is a far better X's and O's guy than Kidd (at least at this stage of Kidd's coaching development), but whom Luka evidently felt was disrespectful to Salah and some others.

[Scott41theMavs]

Dirk just gave an interview with Skin saying Kidd takes a lot of heat but is a good dude.

I guess Dirk is getting catfished again.

I have come to believe that DallasMaverick, whom I have accused of being Cuban, is actually the Great One himself gracing this board with his presence. He constantly sticks up for Kidd in a rather impudent way, which certainly accords with Dirk's wonderful sense of humor and banter as we've seen it over the years.

I have always looked at Kidd as a major mistake by Dirk, who recommended him highly to Mark. What if Kidd ends up working out as the Mavs coach after all? Then it's a parallel to Dirk being dismissed as soft and unable to win the big one - until he did, and as he said, "No one can ever take this away from us." Hope he proves everyone wrong again.