Richaun Holmes - all he contributes is a contract for trading

[Scott41theMavs]

What makes you so sure Siakim won’t be traded, suddenly?

Check the Discord. There was a tweet posted there that the Raptors are keeping Siakam for now, and that his camp nixed Atlanta as a destination.

[MFFL]

Check the Discord. There was a tweet posted there that the Raptors are keeping Siakam for now, and that his camp nixed Atlanta as a destination.

Doesn't that mean that Atlanta will pivot to Towns and Capela would STILL be available?

[F Gump]

It feels like Towns definitely must be in the mix to be traded somewhere. Doesn't it?

[KillerLeft]

Check the Discord. There was a tweet posted there that the Raptors are keeping Siakam for now, and that his camp nixed Atlanta as a destination.

Could just be posturing. Until they pay him, I don’t think it goes away.

---

It feels like Towns definitely must be in the mix to be traded somewhere. Doesn't it?

Apparently, the tires were kicked by both DAL and ATL, at least. Seems like ATL got pretty far.

[MFFL]

Richaun Holmes settles defamation suit against Sacramento Bee and McClatchy - 2 separate articles

https://awfulannouncing.com/nba/richaun-...atchy.html

https://archive.is/jNMCU

[surfpuckmd]

Richaun Holmes sustained a serious eye injury in December of 2021 that seems to have affected his performance.  They didn't release whether it was specifically to the globe (the eyeball itself) or around the eye but I think it was implied that it was a globe injury as it required a specialized procedure.  

He doesn't seem to be the same player since.  He didn't play for the Kings last season because he was pretty terrible when he did play.  Mike Brown is a good coach who plays his better players (unlike certain other head coaches).

Richaun Holmes also was never an effective defensive player even before the injury regardless of the counting stats.

While I think it is fine to hope for a comeback story for Richaun Holmes, I think it is unlikely.  

We are in a situation where Dwight Powell is clearly our best center and I think he can hold it down until Derrick Lively is ready to contribute.

If an upgrade at center becomes available during the season, I think the Mavs should entertain it.  Unfortunately, we don't really have any significant, expiring contracts to trade this season.  I think we may need to wait until next offseason to make a big trade when JaVale and Holmes become expiring contracts.  I think we'll know much more about Derrick Lively as the season progresses and we'll have a better idea when he'll be ready to contribute.

[mvossman]

Richaun Holmes sustained a serious eye injury in December of 2021 that seems to have affected his performance.  They didn't release whether it was specifically to the globe (the eyeball itself) or around the eye but I think it was implied that it was a globe injury as it required a specialized procedure.  

He doesn't seem to be the same player since.  He didn't play for the Kings last season because he was pretty terrible when he did play.  Mike Brown is a good coach who plays his better players (unlike certain other head coaches).

Richaun Holmes also was never an effective defensive player even before the injury regardless of the counting stats.

While I think it is fine to hope for a comeback story for Richaun Holmes, I think it is unlikely.  

We are in a situation where Dwight Powell is clearly our best center and I think he can hold it down until Derrick Lively is ready to contribute.

If an upgrade at center becomes available during the season, I think the Mavs should entertain it.  Unfortunately, we don't really have any significant, expiring contracts to trade this season.  I think we may need to wait until next offseason to make a big trade when JaVale and Holmes become expiring contracts.  I think we'll know much more about Derrick Lively as the season progresses and we'll have a better idea when he'll be ready to contribute.

It’s not just counting stats that suggest Holmes was a good defensive center, every advanced stat says it as well. I don’t know how much permanent damage that eye injury may have had, but he had a lot more shit going on than just that. 

Powell is not our best center right now. Maxi is (unless it’s Holmes). He just has durability issues. It’s possible Holmes has nothing left and we are forced to start Powell again, but I don’t think it’s foregone conclusion.

[surfpuckmd]

It’s not just counting stats that suggest Holmes was a good defensive center, every advanced stat says it as well. I don’t know how much permanent damage that eye injury may have had, but he had a lot more shit going on than just that. 

Powell is not our best center right now. Maxi is (unless it’s Holmes). He just has durability issues. It’s possible Holmes has nothing left and we are forced to start Powell again, but I don’t think it’s foregone conclusion.

Maybe "not effective" isn't the best term.  Average might be more appropriate. 

Here's Richaun Holmes defensive plus/minus from 538 for his peak performance years:

2018:   -0.2
2019:   + 0.2
2020:   + 0.1
2021:   + 0.2

That seems pretty average.  

Here's Dwight Powell from the past few years:

2021:   + 0.8
2022:   + 0.7
2023:   + 0.6

So, a little better than average.  

I think Dwight is a better defensive player than Richaun Holmes although Holmes is a better rebounder.

I don't have anything against Richaun Holmes and I hope he overcomes his eye injury and the personal turmoil of his last few years.  It would be a great if he could become our starter and upgrade our roster.  My real problem is just Mark Cuban polishing another terd and trying to sell it as progress.  For whatever his personal faults, Christian Wood was a much better on-court player last season than Richaun Holmes.  Pointing to Richaun Holmes as the solution to our center problem is disappointing.

[KillerLeft]

I think Dwight is a better defensive player than Richaun Holmes although Holmes is a better rebounder.

I don't have anything against Richaun Holmes and I hope he overcomes his eye injury and the personal turmoil of his last few years.  It would be a great if he could become our starter and upgrade our roster.  My real problem is just Mark Cuban polishing another terd and trying to sell it as progress.  For whatever his personal faults, Christian Wood was a much better on-court player last season than Richaun Holmes.  Pointing to Richaun Holmes as the solution to our center problem is disappointing.

I agree with all of this. I'm not quite as disappointed as you, because I feel the evidence points to them having kicked the tires pretty hard on every option out there and that the price was too high on all of them. Others will roll their eyes at the very idea of any price that's within the Mavs power to pay being too much while Luka is on the roster, but the plain truth is that a team must arrange their draft capital, young talent, cap space, etc, basically every currency at their disposal, to acquire TOP talent, and this requires planning. It also requires not spending like real housewives of Beverly Hills on every shiny thing that comes along. Those resources aren't infinite. 

I think Holmes, combined with Powell and Kleber, does represent improvement in the center situation over last year, for sure. The problem is getting the fan base excited about Holmes when it's most likely that he'll be underwhelming, particularly in light of the growing expectations the positive spin brings. I think Powell is fairly likely to be the best "get us to Kleber" option, although it's nice to have another, similar player in that mix for depth. Getting everyone excited about "Richaun Holmes: season saver" is just going to make the public outcry over Powell and the team worse once reality sets in. Even if Holmes does win the job, people who hate Powell are going to hate him, too, eventually. There are some things Holmes does better than Powell and vice versa, but at the end of the day they are at or near the same level, even in the rosiest of Holmes projections.

[surfpuckmd]

I agree with all of this. I'm not quite as disappointed as you, because I feel the evidence points to them having kicked the tires pretty hard on every option out there and that the price was too high on all of them. Others will roll their eyes at the very idea of any price that's within the Mavs power to pay being too much while Luka is on the roster, but the plain truth is that a team must arrange their draft capital, young talent, cap space, etc, basically every currency at their disposal, to acquire TOP talent, and this requires planning. It also requires not spending like real housewives of Beverly Hills on every shiny thing that comes along. Those resources aren't infinite. 

I think Holmes, combined with Powell and Kleber, does represent improvement in the center situation over last year, for sure. The problem is getting the fan base excited about Holmes when it's most likely that he'll be underwhelming, particularly in light of the growing expectations the positive spin brings. I think Powell is fairly likely to be the best "get us to Kleber" option, although it's nice to have another, similar player in that mix for depth. Getting everyone excited about "Richaun Holmes: season saver" is just going to make the public outcry over Powell and the team worse once reality sets in. Even if Holmes does win the job, people who hate Powell are going to hate him, too, eventually. There are some things Holmes does better than Powell and vice versa, but at the end of the day they are at or near the same level, even in the rosiest of Holmes projections.

I'm fine with them not trading assets for a center.  I think we should see what we have this season with Derrick Lively before we trade more draft assets.  I do think there were players available in free agency though that could help us.  Cuban's unwillingness to go into the luxury tax is what disturbs me.  We're currently 15th in the league in salary which sounds Ok at first.  When you look at the teams spending less than us, however, only Memphis looks like a potential contender.  Every other team with a reasonable hope of contention is spending more this season than the Mavericks.  

I am less concerned about the center position simply because we do hopefully have the future solution on the roster now with Derrick Lively.

If the goal of the summer though was to do everything possible to improve our roster this coming season, then I think the summer was disappointing.  Mark Cuban's budget restraints got in the way of more progress.

[loki]

I'm fine with them not trading assets for a center.  I think we should see what we have this season with Derrick Lively before we trade more draft assets.  I do think there were players available in free agency though that could help us.  Cuban's unwillingness to go into the luxury tax is what disturbs me.  We're currently 15th in the league in salary which sounds Ok at first.  When you look at the teams spending less than us, however, only Memphis looks like a potential contender.  Every other team with a reasonable hope of contention is spending more this season than the Mavericks.  

I am less concerned about the center position simply because we do hopefully have the future solution on the roster now with Derrick Lively.

If the goal of the summer though was to do everything possible to improve our roster this coming season, then I think the summer was disappointing.  Mark Cuban's budget restraints got in the way of more progress.

They tried to go into the tax for Thybulle. I don't mind them dodging it this year if the remaining players they can sign aren't worth it. It will delay the repeater tax which could help them spend more in a future offseason when there is a better opportunity to add talent.

[KillerLeft]

They tried to go into the tax for Thybulle. I don't mind them dodging it this year if the remaining players they can sign aren't worth it. It will delay the repeater tax which could help them spend more in a future offseason when there is a better opportunity to add talent.

Yeah. It remains to be seen how tax averse Cuban will actually be, on the whole. 

I am fine with avoiding the tax this season, as a team building stratagem. As you say, there aren’t a lot of compelling reasons to pay it, and there are real advantages to avoiding it whenever possible.

I am not fine with using that rational over and over to justify not paying tax.  It’s his money and his toy, but something about his reputation for being willing to spend whatever it takes (leftover from his first decade as owner) juxtaposed with the fact that he has basically become one of the most tax averse owners in the game bothers me. If we’re still having this conversation in a year or two I’ll be disappointed. 

If staying under the tax is the reason for not re-signing Josh Green, for example…I mean, they’ll never tell us that, but it will be pretty obvious. How serious Cuban is financially with the long term of the core they’re starting to put in place will go a long way towards determining how high my hopes will get.

[surfpuckmd]

They tried to go into the tax for Thybulle. I don't mind them dodging it this year if the remaining players they can sign aren't worth it. It will delay the repeater tax which could help them spend more in a future offseason when there is a better opportunity to add talent.

I am not an expert on the new CBA and most of my knowledge of it comes from reading this board regularly.  My understanding though was that all the team-building penalties are related to going over the second apron.  Going over the luxury tax but not over the second apron does not limit the team in any way.  It only affects what Mark Cuban makes off the Mavericks.  If I'm wrong on that, then my argument falls apart.

[loki]

Yeah. It remains to be seen how tax averse Cuban will actually be, on the whole. 

I am fine with avoiding the tax this season, as a team building stratagem. As you say, there aren’t a lot of compelling reasons to pay it, and there are real advantages to avoiding it whenever possible.

I am not fine with using that rational over and over to justify not paying tax.  It’s his money and his toy, but something about his reputation for being willing to spend whatever it takes (leftover from his first decade as owner) juxtaposed with the fact that he has basically become one of the most tax averse owners in the game bothers me. If we’re still having this conversation in a year or two I’ll be disappointed. 

If staying under the tax is the reason for not re-signing Josh Green, for example…I mean, they’ll never tell us that, but it will be pretty obvious. How serious Cuban is financially with the long term of the core they’re starting to put in place will go a long way towards determining how high my hopes will get.

Agreed, Cuban will have to prove it over the next few years. Hopefully we get news of a Green extension soon so at least that disaster can be avoided.

---

I am not an expert on the new CBA and most of my knowledge of it comes from reading this board regularly.  My understanding though was that all the team-building penalties are related to going over the second apron.  Going over the luxury tax but not over the second apron does not limit the team in any way.  It only affects what Mark Cuban makes off the Mavericks.  If I'm wrong on that, then my argument falls apart.

Due to receiving Grant Williams in a sign and trade they are capped at the first apron. So they could technically spend about $10m more if they can find a worthy player. I'm just not seeing that guy out there on the free agent market.

[mvossman]

Maybe "not effective" isn't the best term.  Average might be more appropriate. 

Here's Richaun Holmes defensive plus/minus from 538 for his peak performance years:

2018:   -0.2
2019:   + 0.2
2020:   + 0.1
2021:   + 0.2

That seems pretty average.  

Here's Dwight Powell from the past few years:

2021:   + 0.8
2022:   + 0.7
2023:   + 0.6

So, a little better than average.  

I think Dwight is a better defensive player than Richaun Holmes although Holmes is a better rebounder.

I don't have anything against Richaun Holmes and I hope he overcomes his eye injury and the personal turmoil of his last few years.  It would be a great if he could become our starter and upgrade our roster.  My real problem is just Mark Cuban polishing another terd and trying to sell it as progress.  For whatever his personal faults, Christian Wood was a much better on-court player last season than Richaun Holmes.  Pointing to Richaun Holmes as the solution to our center problem is disappointing.

I'm looking at stuff like EPM and DPM, which have both as plus defenders.  Holmes is a better rebounder and rim protector, but Powell is probably better P&R defender.  I think their on court defensive impact is roughly the same, but what Powell brings is more subtle, which is why folks are complaining about him more than they probably should.

If all we did at the center position was bring in Holmes, then "polishing a turd" would be a more accurate statement, but we just spent a lottery pick on a center and Holmes is just a stopgap.  

Wood was definitely not a better defensive center, and it seems clear that he had a negative impact in the locker room as well.

[mvossman]

If the goal of the summer though was to do everything possible to improve our roster this coming season, then I think the summer was disappointing.  Mark Cuban's budget restraints got in the way of more progress.

The goal clearly was not to do everything possible to improve our roster this coming season.  If that were the case we would not have made two draft picks in the first round.  We would have traded that pick for a short term aging vet if the sole focus was on current year.

I don't think budgets has anything to do with what we have done.  When we traded for Williams, that hard capped us at the first apron, which is around 172.  The tax line is like 165, so there is not much room to pay tax anyways.  As somebody mentioned, we tried to sign Thybulle to a contract that would have put us right at that limited and in the tax.  At this point there is nothing out there to spend that much money on.

[surfpuckmd]

I'm looking at stuff like EPM and DPM, which have both as plus defenders.  Holmes is a better rebounder and rim protector, but Powell is probably better P&R defender.  I think their on court defensive impact is roughly the same, but what Powell brings is more subtle, which is why folks are complaining about him more than they probably should.

I think that's a fair assessment of Richaun Holmes defensively several years ago.  If he can be that player again, he would be a good solution to our center problem.  I hope that happens.  I just think that's unlikely. 

If all we did at the center position was bring in Holmes, then "polishing a turd" would be a more accurate statement, but we just spent a lottery pick on a center and Holmes is just a stopgap.  

I really like the Lively pick.  I already stated that I would rather wait on trading assets to see what we have in Lively this season.  The disappointment is in not having a backup plan if Portland matched Thybulle.  The Mavericks position that there was no one else available in free agency post-Thybulle was and is foolish.  

Paul Reed would have fit in very well with what we needed.  I think Derrick Jones Jr. would be a good rotation player for us as well.  What will not help us win games this season is money under the luxury tax and an empty roster spot.  

Wood was definitely not a better defensive center, and it seems clear that he had a negative impact in the locker room as well.

He played really well for some stretches last season.  He often looked like our second-best player pre-Kyrie.  There's obviously something very wrong there though given the fact that literally no NBA team seems to want a player that talented.  

[surfpuckmd]

The goal clearly was not to do everything possible to improve our roster this coming season.  If that were the case we would not have made two draft picks in the first round.  We would have traded that pick for a short term aging vet if the sole focus was on current year.

I don't think budgets has anything to do with what we have done.  When we traded for Williams, that hard capped us at the first apron, which is around 172.  The tax line is like 165, so there is not much room to pay tax anyways.  As somebody mentioned, we tried to sign Thybulle to a contract that would have put us right at that limited and in the tax.  At this point there is nothing out there to spend that much money on.

The best part of our off-season was the draft.  This seems like a turning point in the Mark Cuban Maverick's history in that we actually used cap space for a draft pick.  I couldn't be happier about that.  

I still think there were/are players available in free agency who could upgrade our depth.  In fact, there are some young players who I think would be worth a roster spot and a contract worth more than the minimum.  

My concern is that so many decisions that the Mavericks make now seem cost-conscious.   Cuban was refreshing and fun when he was a new owner and was willing to spend as much as it took to make us competitive.  I'm not sure that's the case anymore as we keep making decisions that seems financially motivated.

[mvossman]

I really like the Lively pick.  I already stated that I would rather wait on trading assets to see what we have in Lively this season.  The disappointment is in not having a backup plan if Portland matched Thybulle.  The Mavericks position that there was no one else available in free agency post-Thybulle was and is foolish.  

Paul Reed would have fit in very well with what we needed.  I think Derrick Jones Jr. would be a good rotation player for us as well.  What will not help us win games this season is money under the luxury tax and an empty roster spot. 


Paul Reed was matched, so he was likely never an option.  I like Derrick Jones too, and I think he is still an option.  They could probably sign him and stay under the tax, so that is not the holdup.  I think they are still trying to figure out a Timmy trade and want to see how that plays out before pulling the trigger on anyone else.

[MrGoat]

I really like the Lively pick.  I already stated that I would rather wait on trading assets to see what we have in Lively this season.  The disappointment is in not having a backup plan if Portland matched Thybulle.  The Mavericks position that there was no one else available in free agency post-Thybulle was and is foolish.  

Paul Reed would have fit in very well with what we needed.  I think Derrick Jones Jr. would be a good rotation player for us as well.  What will not help us win games this season is money under the luxury tax and an empty roster spot. 


Paul Reed was matched, so he was likely never an option.  I like Derrick Jones too, and I think he is still an option.  They could probably sign him and stay under the tax, so that is not the holdup.  I think they are still trying to figure out a Timmy trade and want to see how that plays out before pulling the trigger on anyone else.

I like DJJ, too. PJ Washington is technically still available but he's RFA and probably going to take his QO at this point