X's and O's: An Ongoing Discussion of the Exquisite Art of Basketball

[KillerLeft]

I feel like we need a place for discussion that does not involve negativity about Mavs players, fantasy trades or conclusions based solely on statistical data from games we didn't even watch. I have no idea whether or not this thread will generate interest, but I'm constantly coming across resources in my search for basketball understanding with no place to put them. When I drop them into the main threads they get ignored. 

Here are the rules: 

1) Stats are allowed, but only as a means of supporting the goal of understanding why teams do what they do. 

2) Posting a trade idea in this thread will result in a 1-day ban. 

3) When the Mavericks lose, leave the negativity out of here. You can come here to discuss strategies the opponent employed to beat them, if you wish, or even things the Mavericks did well to win, but it has to be about basketball, not catharsis via toxicity. 

4) ELE (everyone love everyone)

5) DFS slander will not be tolerated under any circumstances. 

To get us started, here's an older video I've posted before but fascinates me so much I watch it every couple of months: 

https://youtu.be/T2T4bJh165g

[KillerLeft]

https://twitter.com/eric_shap/status/1591164562598158336?s=20&t=m98IZrl1wWkp-OrIVLsnpg

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https://twitter.com/eric_shap/status/1591168037201199104?s=20&t=m98IZrl1wWkp-OrIVLsnpg

[dynamicalVoid]

I feel like we need a place for discussion that does not involve negativity about Mavs players, fantasy trades or conclusions based solely on statistical data from games we didn't even watch. I have no idea whether or not this thread will generate interest, but I'm constantly coming across resources in my search for basketball understanding with no place to put them. When I drop them into the main threads they get ignored. 

Here are the rules: 

1) Stats are allowed, but only as a means of supporting the goal of understanding why teams do what they do. 

2) Posting a trade idea in this thread will result in a 1-day ban. 

3) When the Mavericks lose, leave the negativity out of here. You can come here to discuss strategies the opponent employed to beat them, if you wish, or even things the Mavericks did well to win, but it has to be about basketball, not catharsis via toxicity. 

4) ELE (everyone love everyone)

5) DFS slander will not be tolerated under any circumstances. 

To get us started, here's an older video I've posted before but fascinates me so much I watch it every couple of months: 

https://youtu.be/T2T4bJh165g

Interesting video.

Movement, ball movement, cutting and passing.

Polar opposite of Dallas' "Von Neamann" offense.

[KillerLeft]

Polar opposite of Dallas' "Von Neamann" offense.

Yes, pretty much the opposite of how every NBA team operates, although Miami's offense during the bubble season had some similarities to that style. 

It ultimately didn't work in the playoffs. They got into a series (the finals, actually) with LA and by then it was juuuust a little too predictable, I think. 

But, I think every team is trying (or should be trying) to mix this type of passing into their current systems. I know I always enjoy watching basketball a little more when the ball is popping around.

[cow]

I feel like we need a place for discussion that does not involve negativity about Mavs players

That kind of kills my simple solution for our lineups.  Feel free to delete this if it violates the spirit of this thread but I'd like to see THJ's minutes go to Green/Wood and see what this team looks like with that shortened rotation.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I feel like we need a place for discussion that does not involve conclusions based solely on statistical data from games we didn't even watch. 

Here are the rules: 

4) ELE (everyone love everyone)

What is the penalty for being a dick?

[KillerLeft]

What is the penalty for being a dick?

I'm not sure I'm connecting your dots there, sorry. Are you implying that the first statement of mine is targeting people? If so, I can edit - that wasn't my intention AT ALL! 

I just think we, as a community, spend a ton of time analyzing this stuff from certain angles while neglecting other angles. And hey, THAT's just my opinion. This thread wasn't intended as anything other than an answer to a hole I, personally, perceive in our community.

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That kind of kills my simple solution for our lineups.  Feel free to delete this if it violates the spirit of this thread but I'd like to see THJ's minutes go to Green/Wood and see what this team looks like with that shortened rotation.

I don't have time right now, but I think there's room in here for a detailed and fascinating look at shooters like THJ and how different teams use them.

[cow]

I don't have time right now, but I think there's room in here for a detailed and fascinating look at shooters like THJ and how different teams use them.

It seems like most of THJ's comps have teams that are looking to move them (Robinson, Hield, Harris).  I believe all those guys are getting minutes, but it feels like most teams are trying to pencil erase that trend of spending ~16m on one dimensional shooters which always felt like that run on big men in the early 201X that got the likes of Mahinmi paid.

[dirkfansince1998]

To move away from the offensive end. It´s interesting that more and more teams are adopting versions of Spoelstra´s 2-3 zone. Raptors, Blazers, Heat. Despite the overall improvement in 3-point shooting around the league zone usage percentage is going up. Priority number one is preventing penetration and take away the pick and roll. Takes away most of the high pick and roll or spain pick and roll actions that most teams like to spam. Also a lot more difficult to target individual matchups or force switches.

Next level is being able to disguise the zone. Keep teams guessing. Best example would be the bubble Heat run.

[DallasMaverick]

It seems like most of THJ's comps have teams that are looking to move them (Robinson, Hield, Harris).  I believe all those guys are getting minutes, but it feels like most teams are trying to pencil erase that trend of spending ~16m on one dimensional shooters which always felt like that run on big men in the early 201X that got the likes of Mahinmi paid.

I really like how THJ doesn't dribble very much.  Also Bertans.

Can we trade for more players that don't dribble?

[KillerLeft]

To move away from the offensive end. It´s interesting that more and more teams are adopting versions of Spoelstra´s 2-3 zone. Raptors, Blazers, Heat. Despite the overall improvement in 3-point shooting around the league zone usage percentage is going up. Priority number one is preventing penetration and take away the pick and roll. Takes away most of the high pick and roll or spain pick and roll actions that most teams like to spam. Also a lot more difficult to target individual matchups or force switches.

Next level is being able to disguise the zone. Keep teams guessing. Best example would be the bubble Heat run.

Super interesting, thanks!!!

[dirkfansince1998]

Super interesting, thanks!!!

 
As a Mavs fan I obviously don´t like the Heat but Spoelstra is by far the most innovative coach in the league. His adaption of 3-2 / 1-2-2 zone is even more intriguing. With a mobile bigmen like Adebayo at the top of the key. Takes away most traditional pick and roll options. Teams won´t screen to switch a wing onto their ballhandler.

[KillerLeft]

As a Mavs fan I obviously don´t like the Heat but Spoelstra is by far the most innovative coach in the league.

I like Spoelstra so much I have damn near become a Heat fan. They do so many things right.

[ballsrchr]

That kind of kills my simple solution for our lineups.  Feel free to delete this if it violates the spirit of this thread but I'd like to see THJ's minutes go to Green/Wood and see what this team looks like with that shortened rotation.

I would disagree with any shortened rotation.  Expand the rotation.  We've got 82 + games to play.  Let's see what everybody has and keep the proven players injury free and fresher.  We can shorten the rotation on the 83rd game...

...but, yeah...play Green, Wood, Bertans, Ntilikina, Compazzo, and...Pinson, Hardy...hell, throw the kitchen sink at'em.  See what they got and season the team.

THJ (and Bertans to somewhat lesser degree) need to understand that shot selection is their friend.  You can almost bet that when Timmie gets his hot little hands on the ball he will shoot...even when he should have passed.

On another note...why do they pass when they are open?  Ball movement simply for the sake of ball movement does nothing but run out the clock...where THJ has to put up a pirouette prayer.  Ball movement should set up the better shot.

Yeah, yeah...if the 3 point shot is not falling--attack the basket...as a team.  Score some easy shots and the long range will get easier.

I'm commenting simply because I was a little unhappy at the team play last night.  BUT!...did anyone else notice that Compazzo, despite his warts, calmed the team down and helped distribute the ball better while he was out there?  No?  Take a look.

I guess while I'm on a run I'll also say that time should never be taken off the clock on offense.  Score!  Then take time off the clock on defense.

I've run down...

[KillerLeft]

I guess while I'm on a run I'll also say that time should never be taken off the clock on offense.  Score!  Then take time off the clock on defense.

I've run down...

This is something that drives me insane about the Mavs, but I think it's just part of Luka's bag. On one hand, I get it - slowing things down plays to Luka's strengths and away from his weaknesses. On the other, it seriously detracts from the "beauty" of the game, and more to the point I believe it causes great difficulty for the others to get into rhythm and feel like they're part of the offense. One thing all the best offenses seem to have in common is that everyone touches the ball pretty frequently. 

I find myself wondering every so often if playing another PG next to Luka might have been the ideal thing, not just a makeshift effort to get Brunson on the floor more because he was their second best player.

[Jym]

What I'm most surprised about is how often Luka walks the ball up and sets up in the half court after he grabs a rebound

It was a thing of beauty back when Kidd would get a rebound even in his later years. You knew without a doubt we were going to get a great shot, possibly a layup each and every time he got a rebound
I'm just surprised there's rarely ever a quick push and pass ahead in that situation with Luka. Somewhat a personnel issue sure but he never even tests them

[Kammrath]

What I'm most surprised about is how often Luka walks the ball up and sets up in the half court after he grabs a rebound

It might have been his first bucket as a rookie, where he did the exact opposite....grabbed a rebound and ran the ball down everyone's throats for a layup. It was incredible. But alas he was probably 50 lbs lighter back then.

[BoredAssistant]

there's rarely ever a quick push and pass ahead in that situation with Luka. Somewhat a personnel issue sure

Yup.  It would require RB and DFS to dribble which is risky.

[michaeltex]

#1 - Thanks @"KillerLeft" for starting this thread. I love the idea of a sharing/discussion spot about the technical aspects I, for one, often don't pick up just watching a game.

#2 - Loved the passing video you posted. I like the idea that 3pt is not necessarily better than 2pt if you can generate high percentage looks. Did you copy Kidd with the link?

#3 - Regarding taking time off. I agree that it is Luka's style that often slows down the offensive initiation, but it's hard to argue with the results.

#4 - as far as burning clock goes, I submit an ICYMI link on how the Celtics are protecting late game leads and forcing the defense to "unset" itself. I must say that I thought the ball must be touched inbounds within a certain time, but maybe I misunderstand.

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics...-explained

[Reunion Mav]

I too like this thread a lot. I hope watching the game tonight and all of the games so far leads me to a good contribution. For now Thanks to you fine posters who have.