GAME 8: TOR (5-4) @ DAL (5-3) | 111-110 win

[KillerLeft]

As 1998 pointed out, Maxi and Powell can effectively be PF from a defensive quickness standpoint.  If Wood is an elite offensive player that generally needs one of those two guys on the court from a defensive standpoint, I think we are better off holding on to him rather than sending him out for likely pennies on the dollar (If we are trading him at the TDL I don't see his value being any better than what we sent out for him).

Great, only what if it's not up to you?

Someone is going to offer him a featured spot on a team next season, and the salary that comes with that. I obviously don't know that, but I feel it's a fairly safe guess. 

Will that team be stupid to do so? Quite possibly. But at this rate, we won't actually know the answer to that question because our team won't have even attempted to see if he can have a featured role on a winning team. 

Look, we're only 8 games in, so I get that this is all a work in progress and it's super, super possible this ends up being a silly argument. 

Truth be told, it's not Kidd's tentative approach to integrating Wood early on that has me spooked, it's more @"DanSchwartzgan"'s declaration that Wood just isn't capable of being the guy they need that's pissing me off. It's the attitude of "obviously they won't even try to use him that way." That is WRONG on so many levels. I am hoping against hope that the actual Mavs aren't that short-sighted.

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I have seen enough on D over the years to know for an almost certain fact that he is capable of playing decent enough defense to warrant him playing more than he is. It is like Luka, you don't sit him because he is a negative on D, his O more than makes up for it.

Totally. 

Point differential is the name of the game, not holding opposing teams to some arbitrary range of score on average.

If featuring Luka/Wood leads to more of an increase in scoring than it causes your points allowed to increase, then it results in your team being better. The sooner you find out that's the way you want to go, the longer you have to teach the lineups you'll actually use in the playoffs how to improve, defensively.

[mvossman]

Great, only what if it's not up to you?

Someone is going to offer him a featured spot on a team next season, and the salary that comes with that. I obviously don't know that, but I feel it's a fairly safe guess. 

Will that team be stupid to do so? Quite possibly. But at this rate, we won't actually know the answer to that question because our team won't have even attempted to see if he can have a featured role on a winning team. 

Look, we're only 8 games in, so I get that this is all a work in progress and it's super, super possible this ends up being a silly argument. 

Truth be told, it's not Kidd's tentative approach to integrating Wood early on that has me spooked, it's more @"DanSchwartzgan"'s declaration that Wood just isn't capable of being the guy they need that's pissing me off. It's the attitude of "obviously they won't even try to use him that way." That is WRONG on so many levels. I am hoping against hope that the actual Mavs aren't that short-sighted.

I feel like there are two separate questions/concerns and they are tending to get conflated.  One is that Wood is not getting enough minutes, should probably be starting and/or finishing.  The other is whether Wood should be playing as a single big or should be playing with another (mobile) big.

I think there is general agreement that Wood eventually needs to play more minutes and different degrees of impatience regarding when that happens.

I think the second is still open for discussion.  I think we will see plenty more Wood as single big to make assessments about how that works out.  I don't think Dan is arguing against that.  I think he strongly suspects that Wood will be better off with one of those bigs (I believe there is a good chance this is the case).

[KillerLeft]

One is that Wood is not getting enough minutes, should probably be starting and/or finishing.  The other is whether Wood should be playing as a single big or should be playing with another (mobile) big.

Two different questions, yes. But, there's more overlap for me, because I KNOW that you'll be forced to play one big. A lot. 

So, if Wood can't do that part, he can't do the other part. It's pretty simple.

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I think we will see plenty more Wood as single big to make assessments about how that works out.

Personally, that's all I'm asking for. That's all I need to hear.

[mvossman]

Totally. 

Point differential is the name of the game, not holding opposing teams to some arbitrary range of score on average.

If featuring Luka/Wood leads to more of an increase in scoring than it causes your points allowed to increase, then it results in your team being better. The sooner you find out that's the way you want to go, the longer you have to teach the lineups you'll actually use in the playoffs how to improve, defensively.

Totally agree with this, but this is more about getting Wood minutes than who he should be playing with.

You seem to be suggesting that its not possible (particularly in a playoff environment) that Wood+Maxi is more effective overall than Wood single big.  This is my fundamental disagreement with you.  Even if Wood is a net positive as a single big (I think he probably will be) I think it's possible (and likely) that Wood will be more effective on the court (including playoffs) when Maxi is on the court.  I think it's even possible he will be more effective with Powell on the court (although I think that is less likely).  You seem to be saying this is not possible?

[KillerLeft]

You seem to be suggesting that its not possible (particularly in a playoff environment) that Wood+Maxi is more effective overall than Wood single big.

Not in the slightest. 

What I'm suggesting is that in the playoffs, you might very well find yourself being REQUIRED to have someone with the Wood/Kleber skills (offensively) on the court (at center, not with a center) for 48 MINUTES. Since we've now exhausted the list of two players on the roster who fit that criteria, I would hope that the team is at least trying to find ways to make Wood as the lone big work, defensively. We know that Kleber can do it - that's how they got to the conference finals. 

I absolutely think playing them together is a great tool in the toolbelt. A GREAT ONE! 

What I want is the flexibility to choose NOT to play either Powell or McGee for an entire game (or series) if it's the right choice, because I believe there will come a time when that choice is made for you.

FURTHER, in a theoretical, future world wherein Wood can exist as a solo big, I think you have at that point potentially turned a journeyman into a freaking All Star. That is what I'd be shooting for 8 games in, before I have discovered (through my own experience, with my own eyes) that it's impossible. If I'm Kidd I'm DESPERATELY trying to make Wood that player. I'm doing it slowly, with caution, careful to make him earn it and not to upset the trajectory of the rest of the team, sure. But THAT is my hope and my goal.

[mvossman]

Not in the slightest. 

What I'm suggesting is that in the playoffs, you might very well find yourself being REQUIRED to have someone with the Wood/Kleber skills (offensively) on the court (at center, not with a center) for 48 MINUTES. Since we've now exhausted the list of two players on the roster who fit that criteria, I would hope that the team is at least trying to find ways to make Wood as the lone big work, defensively. We know that Kleber can do it - that's how they got to the conference finals. 

I absolutely think playing them together is a great tool in the toolbelt. A GREAT ONE! 

What I want is the flexibility to choose NOT to player either Powell or McGee for an entire game (or series) if it's the right choice, because I believe there will come a time when that choice is made for you.

FURTHER, in a theoretical, future world wherein Wood can exist as a solo big, I think you have at that point potentially turned a journeyman into a freaking All Star. That is what I'd be shooting for 8 games in, before I have discovered (through my own experience, with my own eyes) that it's impossible. If I'm Kidd I'm DESPERATELY trying to make Wood that player. I'm doing it slowly, with caution, careful to make him earn it and not to upset the trajectory of the rest of the team, sure. But THAT is my hope and my goal.

I don't disagree with any of this.  But I think what we will most likely end up with is a player who can survive as the single big when necessary, but is more effective when paired with somebody like Maxi.  Somebody who would preferably not feature as a single big, but can play that role for stints, especially against second units.  If this is how it plays out, I still think it's worth trying to hold on to him (its not like we have a lot of other options).

My vision of this team in the playoffs is offensively centered around Luka/Wood, with those guys surrounded with as much defense as possible.  That means Maxi and Dorian and Bullock or Green.  When Luka is off the court it's Din/Wood surrounded by defense.  When Wood is off the court its Powell/McGee single big or Maxi 5 out which means Wood will either spend some minutes as single big or paired with Powell (or both).

[KillerLeft]

But I think what we will most likely end up with is a player who can survive as the single big when necessary, but is more effective when paired with somebody like Maxi.  Somebody who would preferably not feature as a single big, but can play that role for stints, especially against second units.  If this is how it plays out, I still think it's worth trying to hold on to him (its not like we have a lot of other options).

I disagree a little, but let's say for argument's sake that you're right. 

What happens if Kleber gets hurt? Where does your "offensively centered around Luka/Wood" team turn, then? If you're going to build around Luka/Wood, then Luka/Wood needs to be the foundation. Of everything. Meaning you'll have to build lineups around them. Meaning that if you think he's a pick and roll 4, you'd better have at least two quality "stretch 5's" in the rotation, and probably a third for emergencies. I think Bertans (not a 5, but a big, I suppose) MIGHT qualify as that 3rd emergency option, but they don't have that number two guy, and I don't think players like that come available very often. Personally, I think it was a miracle they were able to extend Kleber so that this board never has to learn just how many teams would jump at the chance to throw money at him. 

To me, it seems infinitely easier and offers a far higher likelihood of success just to teach Christian Wood, a guy with center size and center instincts on defense, to, I don't know, play better defense. There are LOADS of guys in the league who can play 3&D forward next to him if you're successful. 

The above is the playing out of what I understand to be your vision. Now for the other part of mine:

Everything we think we hate about Wood's defense will be exacerbated in the playoffs, I believe, by a good offense if he's at the 4. That's just doubling down on how slow he is, not dealing with it. There is no scenario wherein you can pretend having a guy out there who can't/won't move his feet on defense is ok because he plays one position instead of another. People seem to think what worked in 2011 for Dirk will work now, but it simply will not. You'd HAVE to play Dirk at the 5 in today's game, whether you wanted to or not. It would be the only chance he had.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I don't disagree with any of this.  But I think what we will most likely end up with is a player who can survive as the single big when necessary, but is more effective when paired with somebody like Maxi.  Somebody who would preferably not feature as a single big, but can play that role for stints, especially against second units.  If this is how it plays out, I still think it's worth trying to hold on to him (its not like we have a lot of other options).

My vision of this team in the playoffs is offensively centered around Luka/Wood, with those guys surrounded with as much defense as possible.  That means Maxi and Dorian and Bullock or Green.  When Luka is off the court it's Din/Wood surrounded by defense.  When Wood is off the court its Powell/McGee single big or Maxi 5 out which means Wood will either spend some minutes as single big or paired with Powell (or both).

It is so weird, it is almost as if mvossman is my burner login lately.  I do think it possible that surrounding Luka/Wood with D can include having Powell or McGee on the court with him them.  I think there may be a day Wood gets more solo-big minutes than he’s getting now…may.  I don’t think…think…that Wood as solo-big will be featured much as Killer is calling for.  

I also don’t think Wood has to be a solo-big in order to get 30 plus minutes and I don’t agree that Wood/Maxi and Wood-Solo Big are the only ways to successfully run an offense.  The Wood/Powell overlap minutes (4 games) and the Wood/McGee overlap minutes (2 games) are a super small sample right now.  But the O-Rating for Wood/Maxi minutes is 115 and the O-Rating is 130 for either of the Wood and McGee/Powell combos.  This may be a good number to keep an eye on.

[KillerLeft]

I also don’t think Wood has to be a solo-big in order to get 30 plus minutes and I don’t agree that Wood/Maxi and Wood-Solo Big are the only ways to successfully run an offense.

Oh, I don't think so, either. 

But I DO think it gets much, much tougher to feature Wood, offensively, with a traditional big out there with him. Like, MUCH tougher. 

Not a deal breaker for stretches. But, I also think there are some teams so smart defensively (see GS in last season's playoffs) that the other ways of creating offense which at times might look unbeatable (Luka/Powell pick and roll, just for example) might not be effective enough. 

And, I think some (most?) of those same teams will be smart enough to FEAST if you are stuck in the mindset of having not one but TWO big, slow-footed defenders out there at once. To me, that's "double jeopardy" and makes it more difficult for the others to help them, not less. 

So, unless I'm really missing something here, the options become:

A) lose with Christian Wood out there by himself because you couldn't get him to play good enough team defense to exist as a solo big by the time you need him to do that

or

B) lose with Christian Wood on the bench because your entire offense is hoping Luka puts up 55 going one on one

I honestly, truly don't believe combining those strengths and "playing two bigs most of the time" will even be an option when the time comes, and to me, option A seems significantly more attractive, because Wood has all of the attributes necessary to be a good defensive center. It's so obvious. At that position, he has adequate length, and honestly a slight athletic advantage, even. 

At forward, those advantages become deficits against pretty much any player a playoff team will throw at him. Imagine "Wood: Forward" matching up with the actual Western Conference opponents for a sec. Can he guard Lebron? Kawhi Leonard? Zion? Jerami Grant? All of those dudes SMOKE him running the floor, changing directions in the half court, etc, etc.

[ItsGoTime]

At forward, those advantages become deficits against pretty much any player a playoff team will throw at him. Imagine "Wood: Forward" matching up with the actual Western Conference opponents for a sec. Can he guard Lebron? Kawhi Leonard? Zion? Jerami Grant? All of those dudes SMOKE him running the floor, changing directions in the half court, etc, etc.

So because he plays the pf spot, he has to guard the opposing pf spot? I thought we saw Maxi and DFS mostly guarding those guys in the playoffs, then Bullock guarded the PGs, does that make him a PG? 

And, I think some (most?) of those same teams will be smart enough to FEAST if you are stuck in the mindset of having not one but TWO big, slow-footed defenders out there at once.

Which 2 of our bigs are slow footed that would be out there? I don't think there is much call for the McGee/Wood pairing, so I think this is mostly a non-issue.

I want to say, I'm with you on what we WANT to see (IF Wood CAN become a good single big defender, this team would probably look amazing), but if we don't have the personnel to accomplish that task there is more than 1 way to skin a chicken. I think that's what Mvoss and Dan (and I in the past) have been getting at. They won't just take their ball and go home.

[Scott41theMavs]

Surprisingly after last summer, I think the conversation I see here is losing out on what is probably the most important aspect of the whole situation:

1) When we disastrously Nashed Jalen Brunson, the consolation prize was that we at least got Wood for relatively cheap. Wood kept our talent quotient at the same level that it was last year (and it would have been higher if we would have used the tax MLE in a non-droolingly-moronic way, but oh well). 

2) This is a team with significant negative cap room, no draft pick this year, and virtually no trade assets.

3) The three possible outcomes of the Wood saga are a) trading him before the deadline, b) he walks in free agency, or c) we re-sign him. While we will have access to our future draft picks by the time b) took place and a slightly higher level of hope and flexibility, I would hope that even the biggest I'm-with-Kidd-we-have-to-make-Wood-a-success-the-right-way Stan would recognize that that scenario would be apocalyptic for the Mavs' talent quotient at a time that Luka needs to be winning the first of his six career rings. They simply cannot let it happen.

4) a) is going to bring back pennies on the dollar, and my understanding is that by the time of the TDL, we still won't be able to incorporate future firsts in a trade, which means that it's a Brunson-on-steroids TDL situation and the return is going to be even less than what we would have gotten for Brunson last year. In other words, I don't see any way that the Mavs do that, even if Wood goes Latrell Sprewell on Kidd. The damage to the talent quotient would be too catastrophic, not much better than b).

5) In short, the Mavs basically have no realistic alternative to c). They do need to balance the goals of incorporating Wood into the team concept and wining and dining him. He must be successful here to the point of it making sense to re-sign him at his market value. If he's pissed at Kidd and Kidd is still employed, his Mavs price will likely be quite a bit higher than his market value. If that's the case, it's still a bad situation for the Mavs (nuke the talent quotient, or tie up a malcontent who doesn't fit completely into the coach's vision to an untradeable contract?) - one that might indeed make Cuban say "Hell with it" and let him walk. As I have said before, I think that leads to a Luka trade demand. 

6) Bottom line is, Cuban and Nico have to be aware that c) is their only realistic option, and it behooves them to make sure Kidd knows this and is very careful managing Wood. Kidd's likely to need the more mature players like SD to get into Wood's ear so that he realizes it's important to his own career to make this work. At the very least, the Mavs need to work out the on-court situation with Wood to the extent that he helps more than he hurts in the playoffs (he's already 100% there in terms of regular season play, imho, but I understand the concerns when we're playing playoff ball), get him locked up on a new market value (as opposed to larger) contract, and then do what they had been planning to do with Brunson - have him on roster as a future trade chip.  

In short, I tend to be somewhere between FGump/Dan and Kammrath/KL - yes, Kidd does need to mold Wood into the team concept, but it's life-or-death crucial that he doesn't piss off this rather fragile-egoed young man by the end of the process. I didn't really outline the best-case scenario - I believe that if Kidd makes a resounding success out of playoff Wood with the Mavs, *and* if we're healthy, *and* if Kidd develops Green properly, then we're likely raising a championship banner next fall with Wood re-signed to a max contract we were happy to give him. I think the team has that much promise. We can only hope things turn out that way.

[KillerLeft]

I tend to be somewhere between FGump/Dan and Kammrath/KL

Good post. For clarification, the above posters have four quite different reads on this situation. There's some overlap in areas, but it's not teams, really. This conversation is all over the place, tbh.

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

6) Bottom line is, Cuban and Nico have to be aware that c) is their only realistic option, and it behooves them to make sure Kidd knows this and is very careful managing Wood. 

This is what worries me.

1. Declaring McGee as the starting center early on was the first mistake. I would have understood if DP was the starting C and Kidd tells Mcgee and Wood as newcomers, they need to earn the starting spot. But no, it has to be only Wood who needs to earn it.
2. Calling out Wood in a game where the coaching is far worse than Wood's defense.
3. Pulling out Wood when he makes a mistake while guys like Bullock are being blown by repeatedly. And still these guys get 30 minutes per game.
4. THJ is by far the weakest defender despite his improvement, and yet he hasn't been in Kidd's microscope. So, it's okay to be a weak defender when you can score right? SD gets a pass because he is needed to make the Mavs work despite his defense. But THJ? One man's opinion: I wouldn't be surprised if THJ is above Wood in the pecking order when it comes to Kidd's idea of an offense. So despite THJ's deficiencies in defense which is worse than Wood's, he gets more shots in, and it's ok by Kidd. 

Kidd's handling of Wood so far doesn't look good at all.